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Race 'Science'

Perhaps colors are not a key attribute.


We can agree that politically correct scientists who wish to publish haven't yet done so.

http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v36/n11s/full/ng1435.html



and then the backflip ...


Darn, maybe there are more than 3 "scientifically definable" races.

Standard statistics would allow scientific and genetic race classes to be defined. Yes, there are a lot of undefinables in today's world; so what? Science has managed classifications with overlap previously, don't you think?

I have no idea what your point is. Have you read and understood the counter arguments thus far? Because your response doesn't seem to address the concerns.

Try this analogy again:

'Colour is a function of the eye and not a classification that can be distinguished purely on account of wavelength (there is no zone perceivable in the EMS on which colour can be differentiated - the thresholds are the result of eye functions).'

'Race is a function of our propensity to sort items morphologically and cannot be shown to be a classification which has a genetic equivalent. We can start with the morphology (start with the conclusion that races exist) and find associative genes - yet taking a genome and finding such a classification would vary depending on what genetic groups you're looking at.'

If this is still a problem, look at my sheep analogy.

Athon
 
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Standard statistics would allow scientific and genetic race classes to be defined. Yes, there are a lot of undefinables in today's world; so what? Science has managed classifications with overlap previously, don't you think?
Martillo, do you believe that race can be defined scientifically? If so, please explain. I keep asking, and no one seems to be able to answer.

Yes, there are a lot of undefinables in today's world; so what?

So I keep hearing a lot of hot air implying that race is science, and no evidence.

Can someone list the races, and each one's unique traits?
 
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Martillo, do you believe that race can be defined scientifically? If so, please explain. I keep asking, and no one seems to be able to answer.



So I keep hearing a lot of hot air implying that race is science, and no evidence.

Can someone list the races, and each one's unique traits?

In an attempt to play devil's advocate, I'll offer a starting point:

Negro, Caucasian, Mongoloid, Asian, Pacific Islander, Australian Aboriginal, American Aboriginal...

How's that? Any advocates for racial categorisation improve on that? Danish Dynamite would disagree, breaking this even further into smaller groups to include populations such as 'pygmie', I assume. Which is fine; I find more affinity with his definitions than with others, however don't feel it matches up with what is commonly perceived as a 'race'. In ball park figures, are we looking at half a dozen to a dozen racial groups? Twenty? Fifty? Over a hundred? A thousand?

Athon
 
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Martillo, do you believe that race can be defined scientifically? If so, please explain. I keep asking, and no one seems to be able to answer.



So I keep hearing a lot of hot air implying that race is science, and no evidence.

Can someone list the races, and each one's unique traits?

Well, I can't and neither can the Anthropologists i cited about a week ago. Didn't anybody read that?
Hey. Presta. They know more than us psychologists about this. They can't tell the difference but you can?
 
I'm not a geneticist, but from what I've read in this article, there are clearly biological / genetic differences among races.

I suspect race doesn't fall into discrete categories (like chairs couches and tables are different types of furniture) but along continuums (black to white, then adding an extra dimension for asian, etc.).

I have no idea how good this journal is, but here is a short but technical article arguing that races exist as biological constructs.

http://genomebiology.com/2002/3/7/comment/2007

Quick quote from the article:

If biological is defined as genetic then, as detailed above, a decade or more of population genetics research has documented genetic, and therefore biological, differentiation among the races. This conclusion was most recently reinforced by the analysis of Wilson et al. [2]. If biological is defined by susceptibility to, and natural history of, a chronic disease, then again numerous studies over past decades have documented biological differences among the races. In this context, it is difficult to imagine that such differences are not meaningful. Indeed, it is difficult to conceive of a definition of 'biological' that does not lead to racial differentiation, except perhaps one as extreme as speciation.


***


Despite the evidence for genetic differentiation among the five major races, as defined above, numerous studies have shown that local populations retain a great deal of genetic variation. Analysis of variance has led to estimates of 10% for the proportion of variance due to average differences between races, and 75% of the variance due to genetic variation within populations. Comparable estimates have been obtained for classical blood markers [15,16], microsatellites [17], and SNPs [12]. Unfortunately, these analysis of variance estimates have also led to misunderstandings or misinterpretations. Because of the large amount of variation observed within races versus between races, some commentators have denied genetic differentiation between the races; for example, "Genetic data ... show that any two individuals within a particular population are as different genetically as any two people selected from any two populations in the world." [18]. This assertion is both counter-intuitive and factually incorrect [12,13]. If it were true, it would be impossible to create discrete clusters of humans (that end up corresponding to the major races), for example as was done by Wilson et al. [2], with even as few as 20 randomly chosen genetic markers. Two Caucasians are more similar to each other genetically than a Caucasian and an Asian.

In these variance assessments, it is also important to consider the frequency of the allelic variants examined. These studies are based primarily on common alleles, and may not reflect the degree of differentiation between races for rare alleles. This is an important concern because alleles underlying disease susceptibility, especially deleterious diseases, may be less frequent than randomly selected alleles. Similarly, it has also been shown that among different classes of SNPs, those that lead to non-conservative amino-acid substitutions (which most frequently are associated with clinical outcomes) occur least often, and when they do occur they tend to have lower allele frequencies than non-coding or synonymous coding changes [12,19,20].
 
Well, I can't and neither can the Anthropologists i cited about a week ago. Didn't anybody read that?
Hey. Presta. They know more than us psychologists about this. They can't tell the difference but you can?

I bet you I can tell the difference with amazing accuracy. Do the genetic marker tests in the article I just cited. Don't show em to me. Let me instead sort people based on physical appearance.

I bet the correlation between the bio/gene markers and my eyeball estimates would be huge.
 
I'm not a geneticist, but from what I've read in this article, there are clearly biological / genetic differences among races.

Ok, let's start with this.

I pick skin colouration as a starting point. The gradation can be linked with the activation of several genes. I sort the gradation based on visual perception into five groups; light, mild, medium, heavy and black. I then find those genes which account for the categories I created.

Great. And not ridiculous.

Another anthropologist comes in and divides that group up on the basis of build, and decides there are three categories - slight, medium and heavy. He finds there are genes which collaborate this and, on finding the gene in an individual, can tell which category they belong to. They overlap through the 'colour gradation' racial categories.

Which system should form the basis of 'race'?

Matching morphology with a gene does not mean the distinctions we make on account of visible morphological characteristics are genetic categories. If we switch which phenotypical features we are observing, we can easily draw new 'racial' categories. Some will overlap better than others, sure. And it's worth investigating such overlap between populations. Yet to keep relating to an arbitrary super-category of 'race' without any reason other than it is morphologically obvious to us is senseless.

Athon
 
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And if you allowed that races exist, then what would be the implication of that in your, jimtron and Athon, views? I don't get where this arguement is going or why this aspect of the topic of race is being contested so much.

I thought it was agreed in the other Watson thread that the terminology is technically wrong because the exact lines it draws around population groups are arbitrary. It was agreed that if you replace the term "race" with "ancestral population groups" then the issue of defining "race" is resolved. I don't see how any of this terminology confusion invalidates any test data.
 
I bet you I can tell the difference with amazing accuracy. Do the genetic marker tests in the article I just cited. Don't show em to me. Let me instead sort people based on physical appearance.

I bet the correlation between the bio/gene markers and my eyeball estimates would be huge.
I would not like to be a "black" in one of your classes. Your eyeball estimate might fail me. After all, I probably would be at least 1 sd below the mean.
"Camptown ladies sing this song.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g9uEuDtQ
 
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...Which system should form the basis of 'race'?...


While that's a valid question, what implications does this have for test data that bpesta22 posts or is this a separate arguement? Even if skin color is an arbitrary category to use to designate "race" a study that showed differences accross different skin colors has huge social implications and shouldn't just be repressed away.
 
And if you allowed that races exist, then what would be the implication of that in your, jimtron and Athon, views? I don't get where this arguement is going or why this aspect of the topic of race is being contested so much.

I thought it was agreed in the other Watson thread that the terminology is technically wrong because the exact lines it draws around population groups are arbitrary. It was agreed that if you replace the term "race" with "ancestral population groups" then the issue of defining "race" is resolved. I don't see how any of this terminology confusion invalidates any test data.

Because assumptions are more likely to be made on a groundless basis on account of the assumption that there is something behind the perceived morphological grouping. Having large, exclusive racial groups has conferred no benefits to understanding relationships or ancestory. Rather, looking at smaller populations related to the geographical regions and seeing where they fit into a spectrum of genetic relatedness has not only given us much better insight, but has overturned some assumptions based on the older 'morphological phylogeny' theories that grew out of the earlier beliefs founded on the traditional races.

As I said earlier, it has a perfect reflection in the molecular phylogeny revolution in bacteriology during the latter part of the 20th century. It turned out that the grouping done previously wasn't as efficient as once thought in investigating how species were related.

Athon
 
While that's a valid question, what implications does this have for test data that bpesta22 posts or is this a separate arguement? Even if skin color is an arbitrary category to use to designate "race" a study that showed differences accross different skin colors has huge social implications and shouldn't just be repressed away.

To be honest, I've never rubbished Pesta's work. Not in the slightest. His data stands on its own merit - the racial group an individual associates themself with can be correlated significantly with the results of an IQ test. I'm cool with that. We could argue that IQ is a good indicator of what we commonly call intelligence. I'll even subscribe to that. But to leap from that to assume that it substantiates the existance of racial categories is erroneous in my view, and offers nothing useful (while risking we miss other factors).

I respect Pesta and his work quite a bit. But I disagree that race in its traditional usage is a useful construct or that it has non-arbitrary genetic boundaries.

Athon
 
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In an attempt to play devil's advocate, I'll offer a starting point:

Negro, Caucasian, Mongoloid, Asian, Pacific Islander, Australian Aboriginal, American Aboriginal...
OK that is a start. Now, what are the unique traits of each of these? Please describe specifically.

Well, I can't and neither can the Anthropologists i cited about a week ago. Didn't anybody read that?
That was my impression, but apparently a few folks here think that race is science.

And if you allowed that races exist, then what would be the implication of that in your, jimtron and Athon, views?
I would look at the evidence and consider the implications. But my impression so far is that race is basically a social construct, devised by humans, who tend to have a tribal instinct and like to find patterns, and look for justifications for taking people's land and otherwise exploiting them, etc.


It was agreed that if you replace the term "race" with "ancestral population groups" then the issue of defining "race" is resolved.
Well I think we'll largely agree on the definition of "ancestral population groups." I don't think we'll agree on what "race" means.
 
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Quasi-Social Construct

I don't see it as "political correctness"
myself. If "race" exists then surely a more robust definition can be made which is other than "what people commonly think". People commonly think they know what gender someone is by what they look like but the science says the answer is not so clear cut. To continue my analogy, maybe "sex" is also a social construct.

Once defined, How do you determine race in an individual especially if you have only say remains? Where they were found? Bone structure? Genetics?

Sex can be considered a social construct based on a generally (but not always specifically) useful categorization which is, in turn, rooted in a specific difference between groups. In other words - the "platonic ideal" is, in practical reality, a mental construct created by the accurate awareness of a distinctly bi-modal distribution, and is more often than not useful in predicting something about an individual.

Distinction between any two racial groups may well follow a similar mode of action. However, the peaks of the bimodal curve are far less deviant from the arithmatic mean than is the case with sex.

I have seen many highly-pigmented individuals who are surprised to think that others might consider them "black," as that cultural stereotype is not part of their self-image. I have seen many individuals who, until they speak, would never be categorized as "black." And many who never are categorized as black, regardless of the pigmentation level of their parents.

"black-white" dichotomy is much less clearly genetic and more clearly social in a large number of cases. This is also true of "white-asian" dichotomy.

Interestingly, Tiger Woods is regarded as Black by many; although he has every reason to be considered oriental, one never hears him so labeled.

Yes, it's social. and Yes, it's genetically real. and Yes, it's both. And neither. :D
 
I thought it was agreed in the other Watson thread that the terminology is technically wrong because the exact lines it draws around population groups are arbitrary. It was agreed that if you replace the term "race" with "ancestral population groups" then the issue of defining "race" is resolved. I don't see how any of this terminology confusion invalidates any test data.

I hope it wasn't agree that replacing "race" with "ancestral population groups" resolves the issue. As far as I can tell, it puts the issue into much sharper focus. The problem is that there are a number of groups that do not share useful "common ancestors" that separate them from the rest of humanity.

The term "clade" is often used in biology, and I'll use it here in a rather loose sense. A "clade" is any individual (more likely, small group) and his/her descendants. A ship is wrecked on a deserted island, and five hundred years later, everyone on that island is descended from the ship's company and no one off that island is. Five thousand years later, there may well be enough genetic and morphological differences that we consider the islanders to be a separate race.

The problem comes when you have two ships, two companies, two wrecks, and two islands. Assume the two wrecks are 500 miles apart, and assume further that there is no contact or genetic exchange between the two groups post-shipwreck. Can we meaningfully group the two entirely independent groups of islanders together under one umbrella category, simply because their islands are within 500 miles of each other but not close to anything else?

Looking at "ancestral groups" doesn't help much, either. The two islands undoubtedly do share some "ancestry" in common -- perhaps both of the ships came from London and were carrying a crew of mostly English. But in this case, whatever "ancestral group" you lump the islanders into will also have to involve most of the population of London as well -- or else you're drawing an arbitrary and unsupported line. Either the islanders are "English" despite the obvious genetic differences, or they're a separate "race" -- but they're also separate from each other. What you cannot do is lump them together as one separate "Islander" race.

That's the situation we seem to have in Africa, in particular. The "black" race contains groups that are more genetically separated from each other than they are from the "white" race -- any common ancestor that (for example) the Masai and the Watusi share would also be shared by the Finns, the Hungarians, the Irish, and the Spanish (as well as the rest of the population of Europe. In what sense, then, can we claim that the Masai and the Watusi come from ancestral group A, while the Finns, Irish, Spanish, and Hungarians came from ancestral group B?

Similarly, any ancestor that the Incas shared with the Aleut would probably also be shared by the Russians. So why do we say that Russians are one race, while the Incas and Aleut are jointly a different one?
 
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I used to think that I was a Pict.

Then I got my Y-chromosome done and it turns out I'm Chinese.

At least I can now do the "Chink in the Curtain" joke with a clear conscience.
 
Yes, and it is very good!

(Your weeks are rather short, though: 4th December 2007, 08:20 PM --> Today 03:12 AM)

That's how time passes when you're having fun. Actually, I posted it on the old Watson thread.
 
Who asked for 100% precision? Not me.

Let me try this again. Can race be defined scientifically? If yes, please provide that definition. If race cannot, so far anyway, be defined scientifically, please say so.

OK, DD, I'm ready for your scientific definition of sub-species. And since sub-species is, according to you, the same thing as race, then at last I'll get my answer (scientific definition of race). Please explain.

Bpesta: Please define race scientifically. It doesn't have to be 100% precise. But please be as specific as possible. And scientific.
In fact, almost any definition of subspecies you can find in a reputable dictionary is fine. This one from Encata, for example:
plant or animal category: a category used to classify plants and animals whose populations are distinct, e.g. in distribution, appearance, or feeding habits, but can still interbreed
 
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