NOVA program: Judgement Day, Intelligent Design on Trial

Oh not this 'what debate?' pretend stuff again. :) Look, there is a whole industry around books on both sides, as well as court cases.
There is no debate within the scientific community regarding the occurance of evolution. Most of the genuine debates regarding evolution are about rate and relationships. The debate about whether evolution occurs is only happening in the public arena. There is no serious alternative to evolution that has gained any credibility within the scientific community.
 
Oh not this 'what debate?' pretend stuff again. :) Look, there is a whole industry around books on both sides, as well as court cases.

There's a whole industry around homeopathy. There's a whole industry around Holocaust denial. There's a whole industry around faith healing. What point are you trying to make? When it comes to the science, there simply is no debate when it comes to evolution. On the science side there are are atheists like Dawkins, Catholics like Miller, Pentecostals like Bakker, etc. who argue for evolution and science and on the C/ID side there is Hovind, Behe and Johnson who are trying to counter atheism. And Behe accepts a form of Theistic Evolution, he's just got a bacterial flagullum up his butt about atheism.

So where is the scientific debate?

Arguments from inappropriate analogies are embarassing. I agree.

Have you no sense of irony? Just a handful of posts earlier in this thread it was shown you were fallaciously equivocating Christians and religious people with "Creationists" and now you're declaring Tumblehome's perfectly valid analogy to be inappropriate?

If anyone should be embarassed in this thread it's you for your disengenuousness, but given your posting history here you are utterly without a sense of shame.

I only wish you could appreciate the multiple layers of irony involved in a person using my user ID pointing out how unrepentantly you are sinning right now... but I know better after all this time.
 
Oh not this 'what debate?' pretend stuff again. :) Look, there is a whole industry around books on both sides, as well as court cases.



Arguments from inappropriate analogies are embarassing. I agree.
Daniel C. Dennett's essay The Hoax of Intelligent Design and How It Was Perpetrated in the book Intelligent Thought: Science Versus the Intelligent Design Movement pgs 39-41

The campaigners for intelligent design have become adept at feeding off the difficulty of this idea, by starting with a straightforward counterclaim and then retreating into the fog of technical confusion when their counterclaims are refuted. For instance, the philosopher William Dembski, one of the two most prominent ideologues of the ID movement, has attempted to argue that a particular sort of design product does require an intelligent designer, and that the designs found in nature include such products, but his various expressions of the argument to date, which depend on some rather abstruse mathematical formulations, have been show to be technically flawed. Few, if any, theoreticians give his project any hope of success, since the flaws they have uncovered are central to his thesis.
...
How can non-scientists assess their own judgement in this case? Not by trusting wishful thinking. If you can just see that Dembski must be onto something even thought you can't follow the mathematics, you are falling right into the trap. ... Perhaps, then, you should wait with bated breath on the sidelines while the experts duke it out in the scientific arena. This would be fine, except that Dembski has left the playing field and is appealing directly to the spectators, instead of contending with the scientists on their own terms.
In his trade books, magazine articles, and popular lectures, Dembski makes it appear that there is scientific controversy - but there isn't, as we can see by comparing his path with others. ... Instead, he and his cohorts use a ploy that works like this. First you misuse or misdescribe some scientist's work, provoking an angry rebuttal. Then, instead of dealing forthrightly with the charges leveled, you cite the rebuttal as evidence there is a "controversy" to teach.
Note that the trick is content-free. You can use it on any topic. ... And here is the delicious part:You can often exploit the very technicality of the issues to your own advantage, counting on most of us to miss the point amid all the difficult details. ... Clever! What looks to scientists - and is - a knockout objection by Dr. Schneider is portrayed to almost everyone else as ridiculous hairsplitting.
 
And... ? Did I ever say the debate was only in one place or another?

Religions are free to debate whose god is the true invisible creator of the universe with each other... however they have nothing to offer in a scientific debate or discussion. Reality does not care what people believe. Truth does not need to be debated. Science aims to understand and explore it. Religions aim to confuse understanding and make their claims gain some credence via the murkiness (their god is the pareidolia of the murkiness). Religions and gurus and scriptures have added no useful, true, and testable knowledge or evidence on any subject-- Science, by contrast, is responsible for the advances in our world and our access to the increasing knowledge.

All the religious debate tactics in the world don't change the facts. They are not valid to anyone interested in facts or in understanding reality.
 
I think T'ai Chi probably hasn't watched the program, nor is he interested in watching it. To him, it'll just be "guesses" that science has about nature. T'ai Chi has a belief, and nothing with change it.
 
What debate? The only people calling it a debate are the ID whiners who demonstrate their utter lack of scientific credibility by refusing to acknowledge the truth.

Here's an analogous "debate":

Which is the better baseball team, the Boston Red Sox or the Boston Celtics?

Celtics: We're a better baseball team.

Red Sox: Yeah? Okay, let's play a game to find--

Celtics: No, no, no. We said we're better. That's all we need to know. Yay, we win! In yo' face, suckas!!!

It's embarrassing, really.

Well the Red Sox win as they actually are a baseball team.

However the tactic of claiming that debate exists where it clearly does not does make that a pretty good analogy.
 
Oh not this 'what debate?' pretend stuff again. :) Look, there is a whole industry around books on both sides, as well as court cases.



Arguments from inappropriate analogies are embarassing. I agree.


Great example of the ID methodology, TC: misread and misrepresent the facts and twist them to your own ends. Thank goodness there's such a thing as science to weed out that kind of dishonesty when it comes to little things like learning about our Universe. Whatever good it'll do, I'll try once again, as simply as I can...

A mouse is not an elephant. No debate.

The Celtics aren't a baseball team. No debate.

A politically-driven, religion-based movement is not a scientific theory. No debate.

No matter how many books are pumped out, you don't create a scientific theory by influencing public opinion. You clearly have the brains to see that, T'ai Chi, so what gives?
 
Even if it did, you wouldn't acknowledge it, for whatever willfully obstinate reason.
 
As previously said, ID is a giant false dichotomy with some argument from incredulity thrown in.

"Evolution can't be right, therefore ID has to be right."

That's why every argument for ID has to mention and berate "Darwinism" (whatever that is). In fact, it's the same with alternative medicine. ("Since BIG PHARMA is evil, MY theories have to be correct!")

What a joke.
 
Imagine if Galileo had said "the planets don't move in the way we would expect if the universe was geocentric, therefore GOD must be moving the planets in crazy ways!". Case closed.
haha
 
T'ai Chi has been told numerous times why the arguments of ID'ers is logical fallacy. The problem is, he doesn't understand that logical fallacy means nonsense. He actually believes that it's just another, reasonable, way to think about something. Noensense = sense to believers like this.
 
I think T'ai's "problem" is that he assumes expertise on a subject he knows nothing about, and shuts out all new information that might clue him into alternative viewpoints. (He has the majority of us on ignore... so he's trolling for new members to indoctrinate.) T'ai will do what needs to be done to keep his pet viewpoint and inflated sense of self afloat.
 
Or maybe he's just a troll, but with as long as he's been keeping up the obtuse B.S. I'm inclined to think it's a more DOCian inadvertant trolling than a purposeful effort.
 
T'ai Chi has been told numerous times why the arguments of ID'ers is logical fallacy. The problem is, he doesn't understand that logical fallacy means nonsense. He actually believes that it's just another, reasonable, way to think about something. Noensense = sense to believers like this.

T'ai Chi understands logical fallacies very well. He just chooses to use them because he thinks that others aren't clever enough to see what he is doing.

I think T'ai's "problem" is that he assumes expertise on a subject he knows nothing about, and shuts out all new information that might clue him into alternative viewpoints. (He has the majority of us on ignore... so he's trolling for new members to indoctrinate.) T'ai will do what needs to be done to keep his pet viewpoint and inflated sense of self afloat.

T'ai Chi understands Evolution very well. He just chooses to distort and downright lie about it, in order to promote Creationism.
 
T'ai Chi understands logical fallacies very well. He just chooses to use them because he thinks that others aren't clever enough to see what he is doing.

T'ai Chi understands Evolution very well. He just chooses to distort and downright lie about it, in order to promote Creationism.


T'ai Chi: evil genius
 

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