Hello JREF, I bring you "Tin Foil"!

Please just divorce yourself from all "charge" theories. It would set your position straight and give you some credit.

The topic of demolition came up in the context of the discussion within this thread, and I responded with what I think. It's not that I need to "divorce" myself from anything because there was no marriage. I think it's plausible that the Buffalo Bills' quarterback may some day stop throwing to defensive backs, but under current circumstances, improbable. It's not crazy to consider that of the wild spectrum of "bombs in the buildings" theories (that seems more accurate), there's a subset with credence... however, it may be crazy to believe the Bills' quarterback will stop throwing interceptions.

In any event, it's my belief that far too much time and energy has been spent on these types of theories (both form the "truther" side and "debunker" side). If you're unable to see your pet theory gain traction, most logical people recognize the futility and move on. Unfortunately, thanks to the maddening array of sites with one-sided theories, there seems to be no shortage of new irrationality for the debate.
 
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The topic of demolition came up in the context of the discussion within this thread, and I responded with what I think. It's not that I need to "divorce" myself from anything because there was no marriage. I think it's plausible that the Buffalo Bills' quarterback may some day stop throwing to defensive backs, but under current circumstances, improbable. It's not crazy to consider that of the wild spectrum of "bombs in the buildings" theories (that seems more accurate), there's a subset with credence... however, it may be crazy to believe the Bills' quarterback will stop throwing interceptions.

The lending of your personal stamp of approval to the theory isn't the issue. We now understand that you're not advocating any kind of CD theory, you're simply entertaining its plausibility without believing it happened. Which is what you just told me.

The issue is that for some reason you think that one of the theories might be remotely plausible. For evidence, you state that out of all the bunk CD theories, there is a probability that one with merit exists. This is another form of the invoking without reason I described earlier. You can't just believe something is plausible without any indication.

In fact, the devices and methods of implantation that would be necessary to even partially weaken the towers with explosive charges are simply implausible without invoking extraterrestrial or superhuman powers. The involvement of these in the destruction of the towers cannot be proven or disproven without an omnipotent view of the past. Thus, to quote an opponent of string theory, "they don't even rise to the level of being wrong."

This belief in plausibility that you hold wouldn't be as troubling if not for your insistence that the 9/11 movement is still in the "research" stage, and will be for quite some time unless a key source comes out in favor of the conspiracy.

Thus, what you're saying is that the event will remain in the research stage until the conspiracists win. Which is a little not good.

-Sporanox
 
This belief in plausibility that you hold wouldn't be as troubling if not for your insistence that the 9/11 movement is still in the "research" stage,

I have no connection with any "movement," nor desire any.

My comments specific to a "research" stage where: But as we've seen with previous conspiracies in history, especially Watergate, the story is laughed at and the story-tellers passed off as conspiracy theorists until strong evidence is presented... then it evolves from "conspiracy theory" to scandal. If anything can be proven at all... we're obviously still firmly in the research phase of the conspiracy life cycle.
These comments were not then, nor are they now, intended to apply to anything being done by anyone who claims to be in a "9/11 Truth" or "truth" movement. If anything, I believe many of their efforts are what's responsible for the long tail of the "research phase."
 
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I have no connection with any "movement," nor desire any.

Which I see from your posts. :)

My comments specific to "research" state where: But as we've seen with previous conspiracies in history, especially Watergate, the story is laughed at and the story-tellers passed off as conspiracy theorists until strong evidence is presented... then it evolves from "conspiracy theory" to scandal. If anything can be proven at all... we're obviously still firmly in the research phase of the conspiracy life cycle.
These comments were not then, nor are they now, intended to apply to anything being done by anyone who claims to be in a "9/11 Truth" or "truth" movement. If anything, I believe many of their efforts are what's responsible for the long tail of the "research phase."

But as per your last sentence you seem to indicate that you believe that they are in a research phase, albeit the "long tail" of it...could you clarify?

Also, I noticed as others did when you initially posted the quote, that you provide no other way to get out of the research phase than the conspiracy being proven. Do you believe there is a way to end this "research stage" by demolishing the conspiracy theory?

-Sporanox
 
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There are precious few (Jim Marrs among them) who have postulated about something that is more of an "Assisted Collapse" wherein a few very-high-energy charges are well-placed so that collapse may be induced after the expected impact and structural damage of the aircraft. The idea being that such devices could have been positioned in mere hours by two people. To me, this is not "controlled demolition," and as far as overall circumstances of timing and personnel, holds some feasibility... at least more so that teams of people frantically placing hundreds of charges during some faux power-outage.

Why would this be remotely plausible? Presumably, for an "Assisted Collapse", a conspiracy would want to minimize the size and number of charges, to minimize the risk of exposure before, during and after charge placement.
To do this, expert calculations would be necessary. Subsequent public expert calculations have shown that the minimum is: no explosives at all.

Even assuming a small number and size of charges, placing and detonating them increases the chances of discovery, before, during and after. What increased benefit from total building collapse justifies this increased exposure? Would the public only be half as angry if a tower only collapsed halfway?
 
the "long tail" of it...could you clarify?
I think (as in my last reply to twinstead) this "research" phase is and will be impossibly long due in most part to the highly disruptive and counter-productive contributions of the wild spectrum of ideas from the numerous factions of "truthers."


Do you believe there is a way to end this "research stage" by demolishing the conspiracy theory?
Yes. In fact, back when I did my "Skeptic Overview" podcasts, one of my more popular shows was around the very idea that, "We shouldn't want these conspiracy theories to be true, and welcome when they are proven wrong."

Traditional or "old school" conspiracy theorists tend to think that way. But the bizarre shotgun wedding of activism and conspiracy that is "9/11 Truth" gave rise to the conspiracist that passionately wants to see their theories be accepted as truth. And that passion has seen a religion-like evolution of fractured "faiths" with distinct belief systems competing with each other for attention.

(Interestingly enough, the "truther" evolution very nearly parallels that of UFOlogy, if somewhat more accelerated because of the Internet.)

Now... I should qualify all that with what I would consider to still be "conspiracy proven."

DISCLIAMER: PURE SPECULATION FOR THE PURPOSE OF ILLUSTRATING A POINT: In my mind, we would still have a proven "9/11 conspiracy" of sorts if the research and investigations uncovered a covert LIHOP scenario of a few sinister people purposefully obfuscating communications between intelligence agencies to ensure the planned terrorist attack they discovered has the best probability of happening. For the "traditional conspiracy theorist," this scenario would qualify as a conspiracy, coverup, and scandal. And I've long postulated that the best hope of discovering a "9/11 conspiracy" lies within these types of scenarios, not arguing the finer points of Boeing wing-tip disintegration/penetration, squibs, demolitions, etc.
 
What increased benefit from total building collapse justifies this increased exposure?
None.

But we got way off-track. The question came up about demolition theories, and I mentioned I've seen a precious few that have some plausibility. But as you pointed out, it still means there would have to be some benefit to the conspirators for total building failure as opposed to a very-visible attack... and I'm not sure there is any.
 
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Do you believe there is a way to end this "research stage" by demolishing the conspiracy theory?
Yes. In fact, back when I did my "Skeptic Overview" podcasts, one of my more popular shows was around the very idea that, "We shouldn't want these conspiracy theories to be true, and welcome when they are proven wrong."

Traditional or "old school" conspiracy theorists tend to think that way. But the bizarre shotgun wedding of activism and conspiracy that is "9/11 Truth" gave rise to the conspiracist that passionately wants to see their theories be accepted as truth. And that passion has seen a religion-like evolution of fractured "faiths" with distinct belief systems competing with each other for attention.

(Interestingly enough, the "truther" evolution very nearly parallels that of UFOlogy, if somewhat more accelerated because of the Internet.)

Now... I should qualify all that with what I would consider to still be "conspiracy proven."

DISCLIAMER: PURE SPECULATION FOR THE PURPOSE OF ILLUSTRATING A POINT: In my mind, we would still have a proven "9/11 conspiracy" of sorts if the research and investigations uncovered a covert LIHOP scenario of a few sinister people purposefully obfuscating communications between intelligence agencies to ensure the planned terrorist attack they discovered has the best probability of happening. For the "traditional conspiracy theorist," this scenario would qualify as a conspiracy, coverup, and scandal. And I've long postulated that the best hope of discovering a "9/11 conspiracy" lies within these types of scenarios, not arguing the finer points of Boeing wing-tip disintegration/penetration, squibs, demolitions, etc.

That's a good summary of the fanaticism of 9/11 truth, but I believe you could explain a couple more things further.

It seems that all the possible scenarios you've proposed that could end this research phase have been CTers proving the conspiracy with substantial evidence. You have not suggested any ways that debunkers could ever conclusively end this research phase, which runs contrary to the beliefs of JREFers. This is also why I took issue with the plausibility question, because leaving slivers of doubt in the form of "plausibility" basically means that we'll have to deal with the "research phase" forever - with no good reason.

I'd be interested in seeing a projected situation that involves the unequivocal death of a conspiracy theory.

So my question to you is - since you think there might be some merit to a generalized evil string-pullers 9/11 conspiracy (without the CDs, etc. etc.), what would conclusively disprove this alleged conspiracy beyond a shadow of a doubt?

-Sporanox
 
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America has constantly supported leaders from Pakistan to Saudi Arabia (the royal family) who the Islamists see as corrupt.

You've just debunked your whole rebuttal with this statement! :rolleyes:

What else would promote jihad against these 'supported' leaders that are deemed corrupt by Islamics? Would it not also support jihad against the 'supporters' as well?
 
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So my question to you is - since you think there might be some merit to a generalized evil string-pullers 9/11 conspiracy (without the CDs, etc. etc.), what would conclusively disprove this alleged conspiracy beyond a shadow of a doubt?

Firstly, I think a great deal of specific 9/11 theories have indeed been disproved... many of them via critical analysis on our site. But then it's rather easy to point out the misconceptions of something like "September Clues."

The more subtle theory of some small group of trusted conspirators ensuring that events transpire as anticipated will be harder disprove (how do you prove a negative), than it will be to prove... and that's not to say it won't be hard to prove. There is only two ways to prove it: 1) a well-informed campaign of FOIA requests across a broad spectrum of agencies, then data mining the results (different agencies redact such documents differently), or 2) a fortuitous insider steps forward to tell the tale. Some believe that Sibel Edmonds is that insider, but her reluctance to speak to anyone but a short-list of sources causes pause.

Disproving such a notion will be harder. We know there are groups within government agencies tasked with secret operations. Our hope is that those "operations" are never such things as a "9/11 LIHOP," but the skeptical conspiracist knows many such operations skirt the law or worse.

But to get to the crux of your question... if we somehow saw material evidence showing the reality, and that reality was not a "conspiracy," then good. Case closed. Done. Move on. Next.

However, my experience with the nature of these things is not such. Just recently we've uncovered evidence of a long denied operation (nothing to do with 9/11). Despite years of hearing "there's no such thing," some tenacious FOIA work uncovered that very thing. The lesson for conspiracy theorists is to speak in terms of speculation and possibilities until evidence provides the ability to use more decisive terminology.
 
Somehow, I managed to overlook this thread when it was started last winter. Having reached the point where we learn that the Gulf of Tonkin incident was a "false flag" attack, I have only myself to blame for going any further. Finally, on page six, I hear about Sgt. Stone, who displayed in his childhood extraordinary abilities at interfacing with extraterrestrial biological entities.

Ralphie expressed my sentiments exactly when his labors to decode Lil' Orphan Annie's secret message yielded, "Be sure to drink your Ovaltine": Son of a bitch!
 
Much thanks for answering my question. However, your answer seems to indicate that until all top secret operations are exposed, you still hold out some sort of moderate possibility of government manipulation. In that case...how long is this research phase anyway? It looks like you might be speaking in speculation for...all time?

Disproving such a notion will be harder. We know there are groups within government agencies tasked with secret operations. Our hope is that those "operations" are never such things as a "9/11 LIHOP," but the skeptical conspiracist knows many such operations skirt the law or worse.

Sure, these operations will skirt the law and are declared top secret, but the detractions of such a conspiracy are visible as well.

First, if the entire operation is as big as enabling something like 9/11 across several intelligence agencies, then a good deal of people would have to be involved and/or see lots of evidence that something extremely dangerous was going on. The fact that out of this potential sea of people you can only draw one prominent, yet undeniably shaky, witness seems contrary to the grand magnitude of the effort.

Second, Osama bin Laden has been a notoriously hard man to track down for several years. It seems unlikely that if a group of government elite could plot his moves well enough to tell what was going to happen well in advance (which they would need to in order to enable him as you are suggesting), they somehow would be unable to get him into custody when he was needed most as a tangible scapegoat. Instead, he's been embarrassing us.

Third, there have been so many botched "top secret" operations and directives in the Bush Administration, most of them relatively important revelations, that it seems even more unlikely that for some reason they'd be able to hold onto the biggest, most slippery fish (covering up 9/11 involvement) while losing all the other ones. Take, for example, the outing of CIA secret prisons in Europe, or the oft-cited domestic wiretapping program that has recently been a subject of extreme debate. These are NOT minor operations - the government had a vested interest in keeping each of them as quiet as possible. When one considers the sheer scope of a coverup over 9/11, it's rational to believe that if such a huge campaign did exist, there would be at least as many whistleblowers as surfaced for the CIA secret prisons.

Plus, the mainstream media (NYT, W. Post, etc.) would be all over it. Yet none of the witnesses brought forward have been credible enough to spark a newspaper firestorm.

Fourth, the difficulties in operation and intelligence sharing that have already been chronicled in the 9/11 Commission Report and several other print sources seem viable enough to explain the colossal failure of our national security system without invoking shadowy government meddlers. We've got 20 (more or less) intelligence agencies that were all split before 9/11. Add the reported rampant territoriality to the mix, and it's easy to see how we were caught off guard. Nobody put the pieces together.

There's more. But to me, the all-powerful state apparatus and sheer volume of coincidences/fortunate happenings necessary to make this work go beyond the pale.

-Sporanox
 
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Hello SkepticGuy!

The OP of this thread on your forum is great!
I've used it a lot in the past. Thanks!

Hey, I just found this "old" thread but I had to pop in and also say I found the OP in the thread that Firestone linked to fantastic.

I particularly liked the explanation, photos, and information on the size of the 757 worthwhile. The "how did it make such a small hole in the Pentagon" argument should always refer to that post.
 
In that case...how long is this research phase anyway? It looks like you might be speaking in speculation for...all time?
And thus the "forever syndrome" we (traditional) conspiracy theorists often suffer. Just as there is no shortage of minutiae for sports fans to analyze and converse about, there's no shortage of startling goings on in the reports of current events or the revelations of old FOIA documents.


The fact that out of this potential sea of people you can only draw one prominent, yet undeniably shaky, witness seems contrary to the grand magnitude of the effort.
If there is an "operation" I've never thought it was of grand magnitude involving a large number of people, so you're "preaching to the choir."


Second, Osama bin Laden has been a notoriously hard man to track down for several years.
In the hypothetical scenario I speculated about, he doesn't need to be tracked down in order to obfuscate or disrupt the flow of intelligence that would otherwise prevent recognizing a coming attack is a certainty and prevent it.


Take, for example, the outing of CIA secret prisons in Europe, or the oft-cited domestic wiretapping program that has recently been a subject of extreme debate. These are NOT minor operations
And, in the strict sense of the traditional definition, you've just provided two examples of contemporary conspiracies that have been revealed to the public. In both cases, insiders blew the whistle.


When one considers the sheer scope of a coverup over 9/11, it's rational to believe that if such a huge campaign did exist, there would be at least as many whistleblowers as surfaced for the CIA secret prisons.
First, as noted above, I don't think the operation was huge. Second, it's not difficult to speculate that two factors might be at play in this case -- 1) perhaps more competent people were at the core of whatever operation resulted in a 9/11 LIHOP scenario, or 2) perhaps there are more competent people at the core of ensuring such an operation is not discovered as several orders of magnitude more volatile than wiretapping or illicit torture.


Plus, the mainstream media (NYT, W. Post, etc.) would be all over it. Yet none of the witnesses brought forward have been credible enough to spark a newspaper firestorm.
AH! Good! Thank you for mentioning that.

I've had the opportunity to speak with several in the media, both "in the trenches" and higher editorial levels, and there is a unanimous desire to stay far away of anything that could be associated with "9/11 Truth." The angry activist style of the "truthers" have so polluted the landscape, that journalists stay as far away as they can.


Fourth, the difficulties in operation and intelligence sharing that have already been chronicled in the 9/11 Commission Report and several other print sources seem viable enough to explain the colossal failure of our national security system without invoking shadowy government meddlers.
As I mentioned, the hypothetical scenario I presented was to illustrate the point that "traditional" conspiracy theorists need not focus on bombs, holograms, or exotic space weapons to anticipate discovering a conspiracy, scandal, or cover-up. However, to a conspiracy theorist, your description would be seen as "surface evidence" for the speculated disruptive operation. ;)




Hey, I just found this "old" thread but I had to pop in and also say I found the OP in the thread that Firestone linked to fantastic.
Hi Calcas... That's just one example of how "traditional" conspiracy theorists can indeed be critical thinkers.

However, to many other venues of less-than-open debate, that thread is an example of how ATS is a COINTELPRO operation. -sigh-
 
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Welcome to the forum SkepticGuy, and thanks for bring the 'Tin Foil' :D (and the sense of humour)

had a read through the thread.. bit harsh on him eh?
 
I've had the opportunity to speak with several in the media, both "in the trenches" and higher editorial levels, and there is a unanimous desire to stay far away of anything that could be associated with "9/11 Truth." The angry activist style of the "truthers" have so polluted the landscape, that journalists stay as far away as they can.

Spare me/us the [Rule 10]! Reporters will sleep with anything, for a story! "You talked to several"...Priceless! Were you trying to sell them addspace on your twoofer infested site?
 
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Spare me/us the [Rule 10]! Reporters will sleep with anything, for a story!
Have you had a conversation with any?


Were you trying to sell them addspace on your twoofer infested site?
They're not the crowd that buys online advertising inventory. And in any event, our media kit is linked off every page, so it;s not hard to find.

Also... "twoofers" tend to avoid us lately. :rolleyes:
 

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