Should Skeptics, by definition, be Atheists?

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I haven't been discussing 'believable' but rather, how reasonable is it for someone to hold a belief. It's far more reasonable for your brother's wife to beleive in Tomten, because she feels she has had a direct experience with him, than it would be for me since I never heard of him prior to your post. It's more reasonable for me to consider that God may exist because I know many people who claim direct personal experience with god than it is for me to consider that Santa may exist because I don't know any adults willing to provide such testimonial evidence of his existance.

Yes. Though I don't agree. If I saw tomten, I would think I had had a few too many cups of mulled wine at the Christmas party :) or some other explanation. I think that my brother's wife should know better, and at least consider that there could be other explanations to her sightings. That would be more reasonable. For example, in one of her sightings Tomten ran across the road when she was driving home late at night from work. I asked her to consider that she was tired, that she has these legends in her head, that it was a winter night (dark roads) that it is very common in Sweden that wildlife crosses the roads... There are so many explanations, but hers was right away "Tomten" and I could not get her to consider anything else.

I don't think her reasoning is reasonable at all, and see no reasons whatsoever for her to have come to this conclusion, other than that she likes the idea. And she's doing medical research, she knows this sort of thinking, but are fully incapable of using it on herself.
 
I place considerably less weight on children's accounts of their experiences and the conclusions they draw regarding their experiences. Do you dismiss this account because they were children?

Whoops.

Now you are placing less value on children's accounts of their experiences. Before, you dismissed them altogether, in favor of adults' accounts.

What about those countless adults who also had experiences?

On October 13, 1917, the final in the series of the apparitions of 1917, a crowd believed to be approximately 70,000 in number,[3] including newspaper reporters and photographers, gathered at the Cova da Iria in response to reports of the children's prior claims that on that day a miracle would occur "so that all may believe".[1] It rained heavily that day, yet countless observers reported that the clouds broke, revealing the sun as an opaque disk spinning in the sky and radiating various colors of light upon the surroundings, then appearing to detach itself from the sky and plunge itself towards the earth in a zigzag pattern, finally returning to its normal place, and leaving the people's once wet clothing now completely dry. The event is known as the "Miracle of the Sun".[4]
Source
 
Your questions used the term should. I didn't want to simply answer 'yes' (my first inclination) because I don't consider those criteria to be neccessary, only sufficient. Does that clarify it for you?

Not really, sorry. Do you mean that it is reasonable to believe a claim if the claim has evidence in support of it or the claim is believed by many people? Or do you mean that there are other criteria that you haven't disclosed to us yet?

That's why I didn't use the term 'rational' but 'reasonable'. I think they are roughly the same, but not all irrational beliefs are unreasonable.

I will make a concession here - if a belief is widely held and there is no evidence supporting an alternate theory, then it is reasonable for a person to believe the widely held belief (even if it is outed as incorrect in the future).

Before Charles Darwin came along, the prevailing view was that we were all created by god - there was very little evidence for anything else. Before we discoved the effect that the sun and moon have on the oceans, they were controlled by a god of the tides.

However, that does not apply to the god hypothesis - no alternative explanation is required, because the god hypothesis explains nothing.

Most of us humans are aware that we can make mistakes in judgement and perception. We tend to compare our experiences with others to verify the accuracy of them and decide how to interpret them. It's one reason forums such as this one are so popular. Many people are here seeking confirmation and validation of the way the way they interpret their experiences.

Yes, but I don't see how that has anything to do with the validity or reasonability of conclusions drawn from anecdotal evidence. Or the price of fish.

If most members of someone's social group interpret a particular experience in the same way, we are likely to interpret similar experiences of our own to match their interpretation. Thus, even irrational beleifs can be reasonable. My own favorite irrational belief is "All men are created equal". Clearly false. But I think it's better to build a society on such a belief than it's opposite, which is rational and true.

I don't think it is a good idea to found any society on an irrational belief, thankyou!

Certainly if you use a literal interpretation that statement is irrational. However, I always thought it was mean to be read as, "All people are afforded equal rights."

Personally, I think that founding a society based on your interpretation would be a horrible idea, whereas using my interpretation we have a good basis for society (and one that far better matches American society than your interpretation).

Sure anecdotal evidence is useful in many different situations. Anecdotal evidence is useful in a court of law to establish what may have happened at the scene of a crime; that's why witnesses and experts are brought in and questioned.

Witnesses are, however, notably falliable, and when what a witness claims contradicts the physical evidence, it is not the physical evidence that is discarded. Getting a conviction based solely on eyewitness testimony would be relatively rare (and would have a high likelihood of being incorrect).

Anecdotal evidence is useful in a business situation for everything from exploring what went wrong to figuring out what customers are going to want next.

I don't know how your company figures out what went wrong, but in all the companies I've known, it sure wasn't anecdotal evidence. Someone may have complained and provided anecdotal evidence that there is a some sort of problem, but from there the issue is generally investigated by someone with the relevant expertise.

As for figuring out what customers are going to want next - since when is anecdotal evidence used for that? Last time I checked, that's what market research was for.

Anecdotal evidence is useful to doctors who must decide what tests, if any, should be run when a patients provides them with testimony regarding their health.

By anecdotal evidence in this situation I'm going to assume you mean subjective symptoms - symptoms that the doctor can't accurately test for (such as 'pain', 'recurring headaches'). I can tell you that such evidence is pretty useless to a doctor - if someone comes in with purely subjective symptoms, the doctor will usually have very little idea of what could specifically be causing the symptoms.

When presented with some kind of overt symptom however, a rash or a fever for example, the doctor can then start to actually narrow things down. And the doctor doesn't do so on the basis of anecdotal evidence, he does so with a background in medical science allowing him to make an informed opinion.

The type of reasoning employed by doctors is called abductive reasoning, by the way, and is very similar to the kind of reasoning a detective would use - coming to a conclusion based upon which hypothesis best fits the evidence (or least conflicts with the evidence).

Anecdotal evidence is useful when deciding what new movie to attend or new restaurant to try. We use anecdotal evidence extensively throughout our everyday lives because objective scientific-caliber is simply not available most of the time when we are making choices.

Yes, we would use it in that situation, but then in that situation we aren't discussing the existence of an object or the objective properties of an object. We are discussing a purely subjective experience (what movie/food does someone like). It is useful in that situation simply because the answer doesn't actually have any bearing on reality. Whether or not you like the movie will not have any bearing on whether it exists (existence), or on whether Tom Cruise starred in it (property).

In fact, at the bottom of your post, you give another use for it.

Yes, but this is entirely my point - it is completely incorrect to draw a conclusion from anecdotal evidence, which is what you are suggesting is a valid thing to do!

All that anecdotal evidence tells us is that someone experienced something - unless they're lying. Without any sort of investigation, we have no way of telling what that 'something' actually is - to blindly accept the word of the person who claimed to have experienced it is to completely skip the investigation phase, and will likely lead you to an incorrect conclusion.
 
Kudos, Moby! Good answers, both :). I'll come back to these later when I can give them the time they deserve.

No problem!

And if he is not an atheist, is he a skeptic?
True Scottsmen are atheists, it seems.

Ah, please don't think that I'm saying that if you aren't an atheist you can't be a skeptic. What I am saying is that skeptics should be atheists - there is plenty of evidence that not all skeptics are.

Simply believing in god will not stop someone from being skeptical in all other aspects of their life, and as such denying them the label would be incredibly restrictive, not to mention it would place an incredible burden upon all 'true' skeptics not to unknowingly hold any woo beliefs that would disqualify them from the group.

Skeptics should be atheists. Skeptics should not believe in telepathy. Skeptics should not believe in the effectiveness of unproven herbal remedies. But some skeptics do have their blind spots, and simply believing one false or unfalsifiable claim does not in itself disqualify one from being a skeptic.
 
Ah, please don't think that I'm saying that if you aren't an atheist you can't be a skeptic. What I am saying is that skeptics should be atheists - there is plenty of evidence that not all skeptics are.

Simply believing in god will not stop someone from being skeptical in all other aspects of their life, and as such denying them the label would be incredibly restrictive, not to mention it would place an incredible burden upon all 'true' skeptics not to unknowingly hold any woo beliefs that would disqualify them from the group.

Skeptics should be atheists. Skeptics should not believe in telepathy. Skeptics should not believe in the effectiveness of unproven herbal remedies. But some skeptics do have their blind spots, and simply believing one false or unfalsifiable claim does not in itself disqualify one from being a skeptic.

I agree with this. And it brings me back to another question that has been discussed a lot here. If it is acceptable or not to point these blind spots out? If it is only acceptable in certain situations or in certain places, and in that case, if threads such as this is such an acceptable situation, and if the JREF forum is such an acceptable place?

Obviously, from my posts, I think it IS acceptable to do so, and that the JREF forum is the place.

The question about if it's suppose to be done in a nice or less nice way, is not as relevant I think. Personally I think, of course, that you should always try to be civil (I try, do not always succeed, I'm human, but I do think it should be the ideal). But I don't think it's possible to reach a complete consensus on how you should present certain questions and/or criticism (beyond what is already stated in the rules on forum behaviour) because no matter how you do it someone will always feel offended.
 
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Ah, please don't think that I'm saying that if you aren't an atheist you can't be a skeptic. What I am saying is that skeptics should be atheists - there is plenty of evidence that not all skeptics are.

Simply believing in god will not stop someone from being skeptical in all other aspects of their life, and as such denying them the label would be incredibly restrictive, not to mention it would place an incredible burden upon all 'true' skeptics not to unknowingly hold any woo beliefs that would disqualify them from the group.

Skeptics should be atheists. Skeptics should not believe in telepathy. Skeptics should not believe in the effectiveness of unproven herbal remedies. But some skeptics do have their blind spots, and simply believing one false or unfalsifiable claim does not in itself disqualify one from being a skeptic.

I don't follow this.

Can you believe in telepathy and be a skeptic?
 
I don't follow this.

Can you believe in telepathy and be a skeptic?

I guess they could be self-acclaimed skeptics, and we would have no real right to say they can't be... Though they shouldn't...

I guess if telepathy was their only blind spot, they were skeptical about everything else, and didn't claim they had any evidence for their telepathy, then they could be valuable recruits for the mission and fight harmful woo as good as anyone.
 
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I don't follow this.

Can you believe in telepathy and be a skeptic?

If it is your only blind spot, I don't see why not. A single blind spot doesn't undo a skeptic, it just makes them human.

Of course I try not to hold any irrational or unsupported beliefs, but I am just as falliable as the next person and may well hold a belief currently that I later find out to be false. Of course, I'll willingly admit to that should it happen.
 
CF Larson: (Please take no offense to what I have to say here :) it is all in the spirit of what we are debating here.)

I honestly think that you can believe whatever you want, it is up to you to decide what is right and what is wrong, there is nothing wrong with believing in God, or not believing in god, it does not make you any more or less of a skeptic either way. It is not a contest after all ;)

I think that to dissect a persons beliefs and try to make them something you can put your finger on, is pointless. Everyone has different views on spirituality and life in general. I just find it difficult to understand why my 'way' of spirituality is up for dissection.

No offense, but if you are not a spiritual person, (which I don't think is up for debate anyways) can you expect to understand my heartfelt description of what my faith in God brings me?? It just seems rather silly for me to sit here and defend what I think is beautiful to someone who simply does not get what I am feeling. (or is acting indifferent to taunt me...lol)

That is all I have to say about that....
 
Before I deal with your example, I'll answer the question that you're not really asking. ;)

The answer, unsurprisingly, is 'none'. Does that invalidate the belief? No.

My answer to your original question was, "When discussing the objective existence of an object, yes." When we discuss 'belief in god', we are discussing whether or not god exists. God is an object that is claimed to exist in reality (i.e. In an objectively observable universe.)

My statement previously is not discussing the objective existence of an object - it is instead discussing an artificial human construct (scientific skepticism) that is used to describe the universe. Certainly there are other artificial human constructs, but the reason I currently adhere to a skeptical viewpoint is that it accurately describes the universe. It produces results, and can make predictions that are lacking in some of the other models ('blind faith' could be an example of an unsuccessful construct).

Similarly, one cannot produce empirical evidence for the existence of 'justice', because it too is an artificial human construct. It cannot be said to tangibly exist in a world where there are no sentient beings to create it.

So is the suggestion here that a skeptic need not apply the same kind of approach to artificial human constructs as they would to the existence of an object? If not, why, especially if the construct is the very basis of establishing the object's existence?

On the basis of this reasoning, could the same be said for anything other than constructs?

In regards to the reasons stated for adhering to the skepital viewpoint, what method would you use to establish the accuracy which it describes anything, whether the results can be trusted or the predictions met?

Onto part two of your post...

The answer is simple - if the person is to be truly skeptical, they must weigh the evidence for with the evidence against. In this case, the evidence against is far stronger - there has been no addition empirical evidence, only three pieces of anecdotal evidence. While three separate, identical hallucinations would be strange, it would not be unheard of. And that doesn't rule out one of the most likely scenarios - that the 'monster' seen by all three was a very real and elaborate tourist hoax.

In short, it would still be unreasonable for the skeptic to believe in the Loch Ness Monster.

However - and this is important - anecdotal evidence can provide the starting point for a proper investigation. If three people claim to have seen the monster, the best thing to do would be to further investigate. Upon further investigation, strong empirical evidence for the existence of the monster may come to light - at that point it would become reasonable to believe in the existence of the monster.

Keep in mind that believing in the existence of the monster prior to the discovery of some kind of empirical evidence is irrational, regardless of whether the monster is found to be real in the end. That your claim has become justified does not mean it was retrospectively justified.

Just for clarification are you using the words "unreasonable" and "irrational" interchangeably here? So, are you saying that should he believe in the monster at this point, that would be irrational and that we could not call him a consistent or "true" skeptic? Would it be accurate to still call him a skeptic at all?

I'm concerned about the likeliness of the scenarios. If there's no evidence that what he saw was a hoax, other than the generally established fact that hoaxes happen, and there's no evidence that he and his friends were hallucinating, other than people have been known to hallucinate, on what basis is there for him to estimate any kind of probability of what he saw actually being a monster?

If the skeptic comes up with an estimate for the likeliness for or against this being a monster, isn't that just subjective reasoning and therefore worthless to him anyway?

Ok, so we'll take the story forward a bit. At which of the four points (if at all) can the skeptic believe in the monster and still be considered to be rational and a skeptic?

A skeptic doctor friend takes a blood sample shortly after his claim to make sure he's not been slipped some LSD or other known hallucinogen into his drink unknowingly - it is shown to be negative. The skeptic and his friends all agree that if it was a hoax, it was beyond anything they were aware of that could be recreated and they do some research and can't find any evidence of anything so sophisticated as to have fooled them on the basis on what they saw.

(Point 1)

The tabloid newspapers get hold of the story and publish it. Many other claims of sightings flood in and also get reported along with a few photographs which had previously been considered as probable fakes. One of the photos which is slightly blurred looks exactly like what our skeptic saw and was said to have been taken 15 years previously, although there's no obvious evidence of that claim, and an experienced photographer says that the picture could have been faked. Of the claims, around 2/3s describe fairly closely what he saw.

(Point 2)

A team of scientists sponsored by a leading newspaper take on the challenge. The newspaper reports that they have all the latest detecting equipment and are doing a thorough search. Our skeptic reads in the newspaper how they finally conclude that their equipment picked up something that would be consistent with a large creature, and one of the scientists claims to have caught a glimpse of something very large breaking the surface of the loch at one point during their investigation. All the major news channels pick up the story.

(Point 3)

The report is published. Several peer reviews agree that the methodology appeared sound and agreed that the results presented were indeed consistent with a large creature. One review suggests a possible alternative explanation for the results.

(Point 4)
 
So is the suggestion here that a skeptic need not apply the same kind of approach to artificial human constructs as they would to the existence of an object? If not, why, especially if the construct is the very basis of establishing the object's existence?

On the basis of this reasoning, could the same be said for anything other than constructs?

In regards to the reasons stated for adhering to the skepital viewpoint, what method would you use to establish the accuracy which it describes anything, whether the results can be trusted or the predictions met?

The reason that empirical evidence is not required to prove the existence of artificial human constructs is because the constructs 'exist' by the very virtue that someone has devised them. When I discuss an object, I am discussing something that exists in reality - something that wouldn't by definition cease to exist if sentient lifedid not exist. The different philosophical methods and approaches to understanding reality do not fall under this category - instead they are a man-made method of interpreting reality as best as a human can. Think of a particular method as being the glasses that we see reality through - we want to use the pair of glasses that will provide us with the most accurate picture of reality that we can possibly achieve.

This leads us into your last question, which can be boiled down to, "Why skepticism?" The answer is simple - because skepticism is the method that gets results - the glasses that provide us with the most accurate picture, to return to my preivous analogy. Blind faith and superstition are unable to adequately explain anything about the world - do a rain dance or pray for rain, and you will receive rain...unless the gods are angry with you. Ganja and peyote allow you to connect with the gods and the spirits.

When skepticism is applied, however, something interesting happens - the world becomes more predictable, and we are able to make real advances in knowledge and technology. We still don't know exactly when it is going to rain, but we now have a better understanding of the weather to the point where we know that doing a rain dance isn't going to make much of a difference. We know that ganja and peyote have real, observable effects on the brain - it turns out that you aren't talking to god, you're just trippin' out! Skepticism allows us to look at the world, make observations, and then make predictions. If the predictions are incorrect, then you've learnt something. If the predictions are correct, well then you've learnt something there too. And in general the predicitions can be broadly applied - if you drop something in London, gravity is going to act on it in pretty much the same way as if you'd dropped it in Melbourne. And homeopathy still won't produce any sort of result, whether you try it in Hong Kong, Geneva, or on the moon.

In short, it is the predictive power of empirical skepticism that makes it such a powerful tool.

Just for clarification are you using the words "unreasonable" and "irrational" interchangeably here? So, are you saying that should he believe in the monster at this point, that would be irrational and that we could not call him a consistent or "true" skeptic? Would it be accurate to still call him a skeptic at all?

Yes, I am using the words interchangeably, as if a belief is irrational, it is unreasonable to hold that belief. And see my earlier post for the answer to your second question - in short, that he has a blind spot (in this case likely a temporary blind spot) does not stop him from being a skeptic, it just means that he's human. He should apply skepticism more rigorously, but making one mistake doesn't change him from being a skeptic to being a woo proponent. It just means that he has to be more careful.

I'm concerned about the likeliness of the scenarios. If there's no evidence that what he saw was a hoax, other than the generally established fact that hoaxes happen, and there's no evidence that he and his friends were hallucinating, other than people have been known to hallucinate, on what basis is there for him to estimate any kind of probability of what he saw actually being a monster?

But that is partly the point - he may not have any evidence that what he saw was a hoax, but hoaxes do happen (and if they're good then you hopefully wouldn't know that you'd been hoaxed), so at least there is a precedent for that opinion. He may not believe that he and his friends were hallucinating, but hallucinations are not at all uncommon, and so there is at least a precedent for that opinion. So far we haven't seen empirical evidence for the existence of even one Loch Ness Monster, so that opinion is entirely without basis or precedent.

If the skeptic comes up with an estimate for the likeliness for or against this being a monster, isn't that just subjective reasoning and therefore worthless to him anyway?

That would be entirely dependant on the method by which he arrived at his estimate of probability.

Ok, so we'll take the story forward a bit. At which of the four points (if at all) can the skeptic believe in the monster and still be considered to be rational and a skeptic?

A skeptic doctor friend takes a blood sample shortly after his claim to make sure he's not been slipped some LSD or other known hallucinogen into his drink unknowingly - it is shown to be negative. The skeptic and his friends all agree that if it was a hoax, it was beyond anything they were aware of that could be recreated and they do some research and can't find any evidence of anything so sophisticated as to have fooled them on the basis on what they saw.

(Point 1)

The tabloid newspapers get hold of the story and publish it. Many other claims of sightings flood in and also get reported along with a few photographs which had previously been considered as probable fakes. One of the photos which is slightly blurred looks exactly like what our skeptic saw and was said to have been taken 15 years previously, although there's no obvious evidence of that claim, and an experienced photographer says that the picture could have been faked. Of the claims, around 2/3s describe fairly closely what he saw.

(Point 2)

A team of scientists sponsored by a leading newspaper take on the challenge. The newspaper reports that they have all the latest detecting equipment and are doing a thorough search. Our skeptic reads in the newspaper how they finally conclude that their equipment picked up something that would be consistent with a large creature, and one of the scientists claims to have caught a glimpse of something very large breaking the surface of the loch at one point during their investigation. All the major news channels pick up the story.

(Point 3)

The report is published. Several peer reviews agree that the methodology appeared sound and agreed that the results presented were indeed consistent with a large creature. One review suggests a possible alternative explanation for the results.

(Point 4)

At the first two points there is still no additional empirical evidence supporting the idea that what he saw was a lake monster - after all, the only possibility that has really been ruled out is that he was under the influence of hallucinogenic drugs. There are other causes of hallucinations, and the idea that he couldn't have been hoaxed is really no more than an argument from incredulity. The second point simply introduces the tabloid media and some unreliable, blurry and easily faked photographs into the mix - not good evidence for the monster.

At points three and four it becomes more reasonable to believe in the monster as more evidence comes to light. I would suggest that accepting the preliminary jounalistic report in point three as completely accurate without further investigation would still be jumping he gun - the report would give a reason to suspect that it is more likely that something exists, but until the final report is released it is still too early to really believe the monster exists.

As for the report that offers an alternate explanation, without knowing the weight and likelihood of the alternative explanation as opposed to the explanation put forward in the positive report, I cannot make an informed statement as to where one should lend their belief.
 
I agree with Mobyseven. Yes, a skeptic should be an atheist. Deal with it.

I also agree with Pat Condell.

“I would like to show more respect to peoples sincerely held beliefs, but unfortunately that would violate my own sincerely held belief that religion is a filthy lie and a threat to civilization.”

“……. too many people have been too diplomatic for too long. If we had the balls to do some straight talking years ago when we should have and put this insulting nonsense in its rightful place with astrology and palmistry we wouldn’t even be talking about this now.”

....
Yep, that's how I see it.
 
No! There is a huge volume of evidence that shows there is no god controlling the universe and no need for one to. There is not a single shred of evidence to support the god idea. Science leaves room for new evidence coming to light so BOTH ideas are provisional running about 99.9% against a god and 0.1% for a god.

You suggest that we ignore all the evidence just to allow you to slip the existence of god in.The skeptical thing to do is to base your belief on the evidence which suggests strongly that there is no god.
Here, let me fix that for you. ;)

"The skeptical thing to do is to base your belief on the evidence which suggests strongly overwhelmingly that there is no god."

And you need a few more zeros after that decimal point before the 1. It needs to be equal to the possibility of invisible pink unicorns existing in my backyard.
 
I've seen many times that there is a sort of belief that when it comes to the question of god, we are still at square one and have no thinking, no studies, no reasoning about this behind us. All people are every time to start from 0 with this question, and so it's a good idea to assume there is a 50/50 on if god exists or not. ....
This has been another thread discussion which I gave up and dropped out of as everyone got in a debate about probability logic. Your 50|50 proposition is nonsense. Just because a question has 2 possible answers doesn't instill automatic probability to each answer. Tossing a coin, sure, but not the god question.

And even if you did start with that premise, it isn't like we all woke up in a strange universe yesterday with no data to begin the assessment with. We already have overwhelming evidence there are no gods. Your 50|50 odds changed long long ago.
 
CF Larson: (Please take no offense to what I have to say here :) it is all in the spirit of what we are debating here.)

I honestly think that you can believe whatever you want, it is up to you to decide what is right and what is wrong, there is nothing wrong with believing in God, or not believing in god, it does not make you any more or less of a skeptic either way. It is not a contest after all ;)

I think that to dissect a persons beliefs and try to make them something you can put your finger on, is pointless. Everyone has different views on spirituality and life in general. I just find it difficult to understand why my 'way' of spirituality is up for dissection.

No offense, but if you are not a spiritual person, (which I don't think is up for debate anyways) can you expect to understand my heartfelt description of what my faith in God brings me?? It just seems rather silly for me to sit here and defend what I think is beautiful to someone who simply does not get what I am feeling. (or is acting indifferent to taunt me...lol)

That is all I have to say about that....
[Penn Jillette]If the reason you believe in it is to feel good, then maybe heroine is for you... [/Penn Jillette]
 
.... A skeptic would indeed fence sit if there is no evidence, there is more than enough evidence on the issue of whether or not god exists for us to make a decision......
Or if there were equivocal evidence a skeptic could and probably should fence sit or in other words, take the agnostic position.

This is the problem I have and keep referring to as the elephant in the room. There is evidence to make a determination of the most likely explanation for god beliefs. The evidence is overwhelming that god beliefs are made up. I doubt any skeptic thinks Pele or Zeus really exist.

No evidence exists that other god beliefs are the result of encounters with real gods whether it be encounters solely in one's head or more direct physical encounters from 6,000 years ago. A Jesus Christ today would probably be less believable than L Ron Hubbard or maybe just as believable as Joseph Smith.

The Bible is clearly full of myths. Skeptics would not believe the YEC stuff and we continually reject Intelligent Design.

Yet with all that one is supposed to be agnostic about the existence of gods? Is that same skeptic agnostic about the existence of gods controlling volcano eruptions and lightning bolts? No, that's been discarded. Is prayer answered? The evidence so far suggests not. Are any mythical creation stories accepted? No, we have contrary evidence against creation myths as well.

What is left? I propose there is nothing left.

Claus, you argue that Deists believe without evidence. I say one had something to base the belief on. You claim I cannot imagine a belief not based on evidence therefore I don't see it.

I don't lack a vision of believing without evidence, I recognize that decisions to believe anything have something which initiated the belief. Unless you are claiming that the decision to believe in a deity is a genetic mandate like my dogs' instinct to hunt, then something occurred in the believer's life which led to the decision to believe. Whatever that something was was taken as evidence by that believer.

Describe a hypothetical scenario leading up to a person becoming a Deist. You cannot do so without including an event or events which resulted in the belief. You might not define those events as including some kind of evidence, but you would have to leave something out of the hypothetical scenario (likely something akin to Beth's feeling it within) in order to have a person believe without evidence.

They are basing the decision to believe on something. It cannot be based on nothing. If nothing triggered the decision to believe, then the belief would not have occurred. And since something had to occur first before the belief occurred, I identify that as evidence a decision was based on. The fact it was not evidence a skeptic would use does not absolve the person of making an unskeptical decision to believe. Just saying one isn't using evidence is simple denial. So you and others are labeling it something else. You are labeling the basis of the decision to believe as "irrational" and "not based on evidence." The person is using evidence that if they took a closer look, they might have to face the fact it was unconvincing evidence.

(ETA, I missed the comma in your statement which I misunderstood in previous posts.)
 
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This has been another thread discussion which I gave up and dropped out of as everyone got in a debate about probability logic. Your 50|50 proposition is nonsense. Just because a question has 2 possible answers doesn't instill automatic probability to each answer. Tossing a coin, sure, but not the god question.

And even if you did start with that premise, it isn't like we all woke up in a strange universe yesterday with no data to begin the assessment with. We already have overwhelming evidence there are no gods. Your 50|50 odds changed long long ago.

I should have been more clear with that post.

I meant to speak with the voice of those who think like that, to show how some people seem to think, and that I don't understand why they think that. I started with the sentence "I've seen many times that there is a sort of belief..." and the rest was a description of those people's beliefs, not my belief. So, the 50/50 thing is not my proposition, but the actual proposition, I was criticising. I was trying to make this point too, that we can't start from scratch, and that, just as you say, the 50/50 train has gone long ago. I've seen that idea so many times, and just as you I think it is nonsense and that it's annoying that it keeps popping up. I think I was referring to Egg's posts, and some things he said in that vein prompted that post, that I admit was badly worded and could easily be misunderstood.

Personally I am an atheist (a strong one I guess) and not agnostic. I lean much more to, was it gayak's, 99/1 proposition with 99% in favor of god's NON-existance. (or less than 1% I guess, that seems too much too.)
 
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Claus, you argue that Deists believe without evidence. I say one had something to base the belief on. You claim I cannot imagine a belief not based on evidence therefore I don't see it.

I don't lack a vision of believing without evidence, I recognize that decisions to believe anything have something which initiated the belief. Unless you are claiming that the decision to believe in a deity is a genetic mandate like my dogs' instinct to hunt, then something occurred in the believer's life which led to the decision to believe. Whatever that something was was taken as evidence by that believer.

Describe a hypothetical scenario leading up to a person becoming a Deist. You cannot do so without including an event or events which resulted in the belief. You might not define those events as including some kind of evidence, but you would have to leave something out of the hypothetical scenario (likely something akin to Beth's feeling it within) in order to have a person believe without evidence.

They are basing the decision to believe on something. It cannot be based on nothing. If nothing triggered the decision to believe, then the belief would not have occurred. And since something had to occur first before the belief occurred, I identify that as evidence a decision was based on. The fact it was not evidence a skeptic would use does not absolve the person of making an unskeptical decision to believe. Just saying one isn't using evidence is simple denial. So you and others are labeling it something else. You are labeling the basis of the decision to believe as "irrational" and "not based on evidence." The person is using evidence that if they took a closer look, they might have to face the fact it was unconvincing evidence.

I agree those people have to base their belief on something.
I do not agree that it has to be evidence.
My guess, yes, only a guess, is that they base their belief on the lack of evidence for any other explanation for the existence of the universe (what was before the big bang etc.), the earth and everything else.
I do not follow that reasoning, because for me it makes no sense to replace a lack of evidence with a deity for which there is no evidence, and that only takes the question one step further (where does this deity come from?), but I can somehow understand that people arrive at that conclusion.
 
If it is your only blind spot, I don't see why not. A single blind spot doesn't undo a skeptic, it just makes them human.

How many blinds spots can one have, before one is not a skeptic?

Of course I try not to hold any irrational or unsupported beliefs, but I am just as falliable as the next person and may well hold a belief currently that I later find out to be false. Of course, I'll willingly admit to that should it happen.

There's a difference between holding irrational/unsupported beliefs, and holding irrational/unsupported beliefs but claiming evidence of them.

CF Larson: (Please take no offense to what I have to say here :) it is all in the spirit of what we are debating here.)

I'm not taking offense at what you say.

I honestly think that you can believe whatever you want, it is up to you to decide what is right and what is wrong, there is nothing wrong with believing in God, or not believing in god, it does not make you any more or less of a skeptic either way. It is not a contest after all ;)

When you say right and wrong, are you also saying truth or falsehood? It is up to you to decide if e.g. astrology is right?

I think that to dissect a persons beliefs and try to make them something you can put your finger on, is pointless. Everyone has different views on spirituality and life in general. I just find it difficult to understand why my 'way' of spirituality is up for dissection.

This is a forum for skepticism and critical thinking. If you post about your spirituality and the truths it has given you, you should expect to have your spirituality "dissected".

No offense, but if you are not a spiritual person, (which I don't think is up for debate anyways) can you expect to understand my heartfelt description of what my faith in God brings me?? It just seems rather silly for me to sit here and defend what I think is beautiful to someone who simply does not get what I am feeling. (or is acting indifferent to taunt me...lol)

That is all I have to say about that....

I am certain that it is impossible to fully understand another human being's beliefs. We will always lack a complete vocabulary to explain what we feel.

But it seems to me that your spirituality is so vapid and nebulous that you can't even give one example of a "truth" your spirituality has given you that you couldn't find elsewhere.

If your spirituality gives you peace of mind, fine. But when you speak of "truths", you invariably attach value to it - something desirable for others, too. And that's where critical thinking comes in: I want to know what those truths are.

You can't point to these truths and not tell us what they are. You must know yourself.

Claus, you argue that Deists believe without evidence. I say one had something to base the belief on. You claim I cannot imagine a belief not based on evidence therefore I don't see it.

I don't lack a vision of believing without evidence, I recognize that decisions to believe anything have something which initiated the belief. Unless you are claiming that the decision to believe in a deity is a genetic mandate like my dogs' instinct to hunt, then something occurred in the believer's life which led to the decision to believe. Whatever that something was was taken as evidence by that believer.

Describe a hypothetical scenario leading up to a person becoming a Deist. You cannot do so without including an event or events which resulted in the belief. You might not define those events as including some kind of evidence, but you would have to leave something out of the hypothetical scenario (likely something akin to Beth's feeling it within) in order to have a person believe without evidence.

They are basing the decision to believe on something. It cannot be based on nothing. If nothing triggered the decision to believe, then the belief would not have occurred. And since something had to occur first before the belief occurred, I identify that as evidence a decision was based on. The fact it was not evidence a skeptic would use does not absolve the person of making an unskeptical decision to believe. Just saying one isn't using evidence is simple denial. So you and others are labeling it something else. You are labeling the basis of the decision to believe as "irrational" and "not based on evidence." The person is using evidence that if they took a closer look, they might have to face the fact it was unconvincing evidence.

Whoa.

We were talking about evidence, not events.
 
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