[Moderated]The Holocaust never happened!

[MaGZ]

What exactly do you deny about the current historical consensus about the Holocaust? That it happened at all? That it was so bad? That the Jews were specifically targeted? That they were killed systematically? That the number of Jewish deaths is as high as 6 million? I know you're not a deranged neo-Nazi like MaGZ or a dumb kid pushing nonsense to further a nationalist ideology like Kageki, so I'm genuinely curious. Also, who do you consider reliable amongst the self-styled scholars and historians who deny the Holocaust? Or do you just not trust any historians at all?

The "Jewish soap" thing is known to be a legend, and is recognized as such by nearly all contemporary historians of the Holocaust, so it is not a very good example of something that is wrong with our understanding of it.

The point is, if they can lie about Jewish soap and lampshades then, they can lie about anything concerning the "Holocaust."

They just need to develop more convincing lies. That is the reason they redefined the Holocaust story: placing extermination camps in the east, revising the extermination number downward where it was palatable. The history of Holocaust development is refining lies to the point where they have a product that will sell.

 

[Gravy]

First of all this thread is about the Holocaust so please stay on topic.

I'm glad to see that you're more focused today. You've repeatedly tried to derail this thread.

kageki and MaGZ, I would like to help you in your search for truth. Specifically what evidence would convince you that the Nazis systematically killed thousands of Jews?

 

[Gravy]

Made a mistake in my last post. Meant to say "millions of Jews."

 

[MaGZ]

Most of them told by you and your friends.



It's run by a former United States Marine and a recipient of the Order of British Columbia?

Thanks for giving us the heads up on this shady character.

He may well be a shady character.

Run a search on "Ken McVay" and conviction.

 

[MaGZ]

But do you think it's likely to be significantly wrong simply because a number of countries have outlawed denying it altogether? As you surely know, it is not a legally punishable offense in America to deny the Holocaust or anything else. Are you asking why it is so in places like Germany and Austria? I'd guess for the same reason the Nazi party itself and paraphernalia advocating for the Nazi party are illegal: they don't want anything like a Nazi takeover to ever happen again. It's an extraordinary measure, sure, but there are, in my opinion, historically sound reasons for its existence in those countries.

By the same logic why don’t they ban the works or advocates of Lenin, Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot.

 

[drkitten]

I doubt it.

Did you read the rest of the paragraph you cited?

The existence of the plan was confirmed by SS-Standartenführer Dr. Hans Ehlich, one of the witnesses in Case VIII before the U.S Military Tribunal in Nuremberg. As a high official in the RSHA, Ehlich was the man responsible for the drafting of Generalplan Ost.

Apart from Ehlich's testimony, there are several documents which refer to this plan or are supplements to it. Although no copies of the actual document have survived, much of the essential elements of the plan have been reconstructed from related memos, abstracts and other ancillary documents. The principal document which makes it possible to recreate with a great deal of accuracy the contents of Generalplan Ost is a memorandum of April 27, 1942 entitled: Stellungnahme und Gedanken zum Generalplan Ost des Reichsführers SS (Opinion and Ideas Regarding the General Plan for the East of the Reichsführer SS). Its author was Dr. Erich Wetzel, the director of the Central Advisory Office on Questions of Racial Policy at the National Socialist Party (Leiter der Hauptstelle Beratungsstelle des Rassenpolitischen Amtes der NSDAP). This memorandum is an elaboration of Generalplan Ost.

Let's see, we've got sworn testimony by the author that he wrote it, abstracts of the document, and opinion texts directly citing the document.

What basis do you have for doubt?

 

[MaGZ]

For me it comes from an extensive knowledge of his life from when he was a very young person.

Was Hitler a coward in WW I?
Didn’t he earn the Iron Cross?

 

[milesalpha]

By the same logic why don’t they ban the works or advocates of Lenin, Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot.

Well, Lenin was not a mass murderer, why would they ban his works?

Stalin was most certainly purged from Soviet History as a hero after his death. His allies were removed from power, his statues destoyed, all in the immediate aftermath of his death. What advocates still exist?

Mao has no where near the influence on Chinese society that he had during his life. Few advocates of Mao still exist, not many little red books toted around any more.

Pol Pot, I don't know enough to comment on his current reputation.

 

[MaGZ]

This is one of those tough questions about the Hitler history. People who claim he was not a coward point to his Iron Cross awards during WWI most commonly and the fact that he was wounded (gassed).

On the other hand (and I fall on this side) there are serious questions about those awards. He was not a front line soldier but rather a messenger. The records of his awards mysteriously disappeared when Hitler became chancellor. One of the strongest points, at least for me, was his actions during the Munich putsch. When the shooting started, the first guy into a car and out of there was Hitler. Other leaders were wounded and captured during the brief battle. His suicide also has to be put into a bit of context. Hitler had repeatedly said he would die leading the troops in a defense of Berlin. Instead he never ventured more than a few metres from the bunker, one famous incident was to present medals to a group of boys (I think they had taken out a Russian tank but cannot recall for sure). The sight of him pinning medals on children for acts that he would never found the courage to commit is very compelling.
It really comes down to individual opinion, but I believe the evidence shows that Hitler was not a man of courage when it came to his own well-being.

There were several assassination attempts against Hitler during his lifetime and yet he would continue to appear in large crowds and open motorcades.

What politician or national leader today appears in open motorcades?

Edited by chillzero: 

Editing to add note that this line of discussion is now straying off topic, and will no longer be approved for the thread.

 

[CHF]

The point is, if they can lie about Jewish soap and lampshades then, they can lie about anything concerning the "Holocaust."

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that some atrocity stories are exaggerated.

Does that in your mind negate testimony from the Nazis themselves? Does that negate piles of corpses? Does that negate the mass graves filled with 1.5 million people by the Einsatzgruppen death squads?

While the exact total of Jews killed by the Nazis is debatable (5 million? 6 million?) what is not debatable is whether or not there was a systematic campaign of mass murder directed at Jews by the Nazi regime.

Holocaust Deniers play the same juvenile game as the 9/11 twoofers or creationists: one piece of suspect evidence is considered enough to throw out the entire case.

 

[Belz...]

What a picture of corpses that died from a typhus outbreak?

That proves what exactly?

The only thing YOUR post proves is that you have just DECIDES that they died from typhus.

 

[Belz...]

I am denying that. People died on both sides of WW II but that was warfare. I totally reject the notion of any plan extermination of any population.

Except for the Jewish plan to exterminate Germany.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_Must_Perish!

Ah! So they had it coming, then ?

The camps were labor camps and the administration wanted to keep the prisoners happy.

Yeah, REAL happy.

 

[JEROME DA GNOME]

You tried to prop up your buddy MagZ's factless rhetorical bluster by comparing all of us to religious fanatics.

Who is "all of us"?

Your precious furher ate his own luger in a bunker under the ruins of Berlin in may of 1945 and his successors waved the white flag shortly thereafter.

Too bad for your made up thoughts that my family fought for the allies against the Nazis.

In was in all the papers (our guys wiped out the ones that wouldn't print the story). I'm suprised you hadn't heard.

As they say in the World of Warcraft forums "QQ more, nub".

I suggest reading what others are writing and not making up what people are saying.

Actually, I don't care.

Of course not, then you would have to think before writing.

Take that up with your buddy, I'm sure he'll love to discuss it with you as you seem open to hearing him out.

You are the one at the beginning of this post said "all of us"; what do you mean by this?

 

[SDC]

I consider this to be more propaganda on the level of Sadam’s mobile bio-weapons labs traveling the countryside.

Isn’t it incredibly inefficient to burn fuels for carbon monoxide Jew killing machines when you need these fuels to win the war and to supply the military?
It never happened.

Well since Magz is quoting me, about the trucks as killing equipment, I'll respond here, rather late.

First, it's true, it happened; about the trucks. Go check Nizkor. Read any real book about the Holocaust.

Second, you're right, it was darned inefficient. That's why the Germans gave it up and moved on to huge, fixed gas chambers. Trial and error.

And many historians have commented on the stupidity of the Germans' putting enormous resources into killing millions of non-combatants which they could have used against the Soviet or Allied armies.

Magz, Kageki has stated that he is non-Aryan (since he has stated he is Japanese). Do you find it appropriate to make common cause with him?

 

[SpitfireIX]

He may well be a shady character.

Run a search on "Ken McVay" and conviction.

Even granting for the sake of debate that all these awful things about McVeigh are true, your argument is nothing more than an ad hominem abusive logical fallacy. "Don't believe this guy--he's [insert irrelevant negative characteristics]."

 

[HawksFan]

Just out of curiosity, how many of the posters in this thread have actually been to one of the camps? Not as a prisioner, obviously, but visited one?

I have (Dachau) and I can tell you it is a sobering and emotional experience. Just the feeling you get walking through the gate with the "Arbeit macht Frei" slogan overhead was almost overwhelming. Almost all conversation stopped at that point as everyone looked around and especially back towards the gate and the fences. You could acutally feel (well, I did) the suffering and misery and death. The crematorium out behind the camp was particularly chilling. I was only 14 at the time I visited.

And Dachau was one of the "nicer" camps. I can't even imagine what visiting a place like Auchwitz or Bergen-Belsen or one of the other notorious eastern camps must be like.

Anyone who doubts that the Holocaust happened needs to visit one of these places. Then tell me it never happened.

 

[TimB1]

Except for the Jewish plan to exterminate Germany.
h ttp: //en. wikipedia.org/ wiki/Germany_Must_Perish!

That article says that the book was self-published by one Jewish man in New Jersey. You may as well say that there's an 'English plan' to claim that the world is controlled by shape-shifting lizards, because David Icke says so.

 

[tsig]

Why do you consider Hitler to be a coward?

He killed himself.

 

[Pak43]

Was it technically and logistically possible to have carried out mass executions in gas chambers specifically using Zyklon B given the conditions of the environment and the process described by witness testimonies?

It seem it is actually difficult to burn many bodies in a large pit and would certainly require large amounts of fuel which was a scarce commodity. If it is even true about this melted fat being scooped on top of the pile, would it even help to continue the burning?

Well if it doesn't seem technically possible to kill many people with gas and dispose of them then yes it would seem that the witnesses could be wrong.

You can run the numbers. First the number supposedly killed or gassed. Then the number of crematoria to be used to burn the dead bodies and the time it would take to turn the bodies into ash. Also you must consider the remains of ash and where the volume of remains are located.

Auschwitz's chief architect (Karl Bischoff) listed in June 1943 an incineration rate for Krema 2 of 1440 corpses per twenty four hours. When questioned about it's authenticity Robert Jan indicated that this document had been available for over 50 years. The original was available and not only that but there is a typed copy in another archive, given that there are two different copies in 2 different archives it was highly improbable they are forgeries.

This crema was DESIGNED to cope with 1440 bodies per day. Not only that but it listed a lower incineration rate than that which was attested to under oath by German eyewitnesses, it therefore represents a LOW estimate of the capacity of the ovens...

The 1942 patent submitted by Topf, (the company that built the crematoria) for the specially designed ovens in Auschwitz. These ovens were designed to simultaneously consume multiple bodies with the limited expenditure of fuel. The design calls for the simultaneous introduction of both emaciated and unemaciated corpses in order to guarantee continual high temperatures through the emission of human fat. If only emaciated corpses were incinerated it was necessary to continously add fuel.

And here's the kicker. Prisoner Henryk Tauber would not have had access to Topf's patent application and yet the process this eyewitness describes is EXACTLY the same as the desin stipulated. It's called convergance of evidence... Based on Robert Jan's calculations it was perfectly feasible for the design of the rest of the Crematoria to keep supplying the ovens with enough bodies to keep the fires burning correctly.

The ovens were designed to burn bodies on an indutrial scale.

I ask you what the most likely explanation for designing them that way if the camps were merely going to be dealing with unexpected deaths from disease, over-work and starvation...

The Sadam reference is a great analogy and this truck issue seems to serve as a perfect illustration of possible lies about the Nazis. I also imagine it takes quite amount of carbon monoxide to kill someone?

I'm afraid the source for this is a contemporary SS report. It's called primary material and I'm afraid in historical research terms it doesn't get any more convincing than that. You want to debunk it then do your research find a copy and prove it's a fake...

 

[Pushkin]

Kageki,

I think we have established that you feel the Holocaust has been exaggerated by the Jews in their pursuit and maintenance of the state of Israel. I'm interested in how exactly they have managed it?

Given that the generally accepted number for those Jews that perished is around six million where did the discrepancy and the conspiracy begin?

Did the liberating troops make up the numbers and the conditions that they found?
Were there reams of documents forged, and witnesses briefed, in post war Europe to dupe the world into what had happened?
Did the perpetrators lie about what had occured and make it a much more horrific event than the reality?
Or as time passed have the worlds historians and chroniclers got together to broadly ramp up the numbers?
or is it a modern political bias driven by the ever present but never to be seen "they"?

because -and here is the tricky bit for you- if any one of them have happened in isolation from another it sets off all sorts of alarm bells. Do you really think the worlds historians are going to twiddle their thumbs (and lets be clear I've made this a lot easier for you by lumping them all into one voice with one opinion) whilst modern politicians twist the truth into something that you claim is so monstously wrong? or the liberating troops going to stay quiet as the Holocaust survivors give evidence of gas chambers that the troops didn't find? or, and most ridiculously of all, the Nazis when faced with the noose decide the best way of clearing their souls is to inflate the death toll six fold? or even, my favourite, that the "they" have hijacked the lot and tortured, silenced and bribed every other group.

To be clear this is not an argument from incredulity - its an impossibility. How can so many disparate and even contrary groups be so quiet throughout the biggest lie in history that one of them is trying to pull off? answer - they can't.

Which then forces your hand somewhat into the biggie - yes (drum roll) that all of them are in on it.

Troops and nurses from the Allied forces, thousands survivors and escapees from dozens of countries from dozens of camps, Nazis, historians, and thousands upon thousands of others are all bound by the big conspiracy.


Either all these people lied then, have lied for sixty years and lie to this day or none of them did.