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Some time after September 2, 1800, Jefferson was in a reflective mood, and wrote down the record of his public achievements up to that time. This is prior to his election to the office of President. The full list may be found in The Papers of Thomas Jefferson Volume 32 (June 1800 to February 1801), on page 122. This excerpt is taken from that list, written in Jefferson's own hand:

I proposed the demolition of the church establishment, and the freedom of religion. It could only be done by degrees. towit 1776. c. 2. exempted dissenters from contributions to the church & left the church clergy to be supported by voluntary contributions of their own sect. continued from year to year & made perpetual 1779. c. 36. I prepared the act for religious freedom in 1777, as part of the revisal, which was not reported to the assembly till 1779, and that particular law not passed till 1785, and then by the efforts of mr Madison.
I don't think anyone would propose the demolition of something he admired and supported.
 
I don't think anyone would propose the demolition of something he admired and supported.

Neither do I. He didn't propose the demolition of Christianity. He proposed the demolition of the church "establishment" (probably the church establishment of Virginia at the time).

Establishment is a word that's not used much in modern society and it has caused some confusion in this thread -- especially when we talked about the first admendment. When Jefferson was talking about church establishment he more than likely was talking about official state religions at that time. For example the official state religion of Virginia might have been Anglican. And the official state religion of Maryland might have been Catholicism. From memory 7 or 8 states had official state religions at the time (aka church establishment).

The founders were worried about church establishments (or official state religions) because of the bad experiences with the Church of England (Anglican) which was the official state religion of England.

So it is possible for Jefferson (or anyone else) to vehemently be against official state religions (establishments) and still admire and support the teachings of Christianity.
 
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That is indeed possible.

Except the evidence is clearly and overwhelmingly against it.
 
When Jefferson was talking about church establishment he more than likely was talking about official state religions at that time.

Thank you for your opinion in this matter. It has been given the appropriate level of consideration.





Please try again at a later date.
 
So it is possible for Jefferson (or anyone else) to vehemently be against official state religions (establishments) and still admire and support the teachings of Christianity.
Well, yes. Jefferson did admire christian morality. But he obviously abhored churches. It is the reason why he coined the term, a wall of seperation between church and state. There is no place for organized religion within the secular government of the united states.
 
Originally Posted by DOC
When Jefferson was talking about church establishment he more than likely was talking about official state religions at that time.

Thank you for your opinion in this matter. It has been given the appropriate level of consideration.

On second thought, I'll rephrase my statement. Jefferson "was" talking about an official state religion.

"An established church is a church officially sanctioned and supported by the government of a country, e.g. the Church of England in England."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_of_religion
 
Originally Posted by DOC
When Jefferson was talking about church establishment he more than likely was talking about official state religions at that time.



On second thought, I'll rephrase my statement. Jefferson "was" talking about an official state religion.

"An established church is a church officially sanctioned and supported by the government of a country, e.g. the Church of England in England."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_of_religion


So you concede that Jefferson was opposed to established (i.e. state supported) religion?
 
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Well, yes. Jefferson did admire christian morality. But he obviously abhored churches. It is the reason why he coined the term, a wall of seperation between church and state. There is no place for organized religion within the secular government of the united states.

He might not have liked the clergy, and the rules and regulations in some denominations but he didn't abhor churches or he wouldn't have been a regular attendee at church services in the Capitol building (while president) as I mentioned (and gave evidence of) many times in this thread.

And Jefferson did believe there was a "place" for religion within secular government -- it's called the Capitol Building. He was simply exercising his "free exercise" to practice his belief in Christian teachings. He just would have abhorred it if a law was made by Congress that called for an official national (established) religion. But since no laws were being made by Congress while he was attending church services in the Capitol building, he was acting withing the framework of the first amendment. It wasn't until Leo (ACLU) Pfeffer and Hugo (KKK) Black started to tinker with the first amendment in 1948, that Jefferson would have been in violation of the law by attending church services in the Capitol building.

I know a lot of people in here don't like the above but its history, plain and simple.
 
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I know a lot of people in here don't like the above but its history, plain and simple.


It isn't history. It is just wrong, plain and simple. A fable, a myth, a prevarication, a comment devoid of facts, a fiction, an example of wishful thinking, a denial of reality, a failure to comprehend various source documents, a figment created by a group with an agenda, a collection of words that, while each individual word may be correct, together present a steaming pile of BS.

Anyone who has followed this thread is already aware of the wrongness of your post.
 
He might not have liked the clergy, and the rules and regulations in some denominations but he didn't abhor churches or he wouldn't have been a regular attendee at church services in the Capitol building (while president) as I mentioned (and gave evidence of) many times in this thread.

Actually, no, you just regurgitated the words of discredited pseudo-historians.

I know a lot of people in here don't like the above but its history, plain and simple.

You mean pseudo-history. See, there's a difference.
 
Actually, no, you just regurgitated the words of discredited pseudo-historians.



You mean pseudo-history. See, there's a difference.

I guess, I'll have to bring in the evidence again and again. When I get the time I will (again). Since this will be at least the third time I've done this I will be in no hurry.
 
I guess, I'll have to bring in the evidence again and again. When I get the time I will (again). Since this will be at least the third time I've done this I will be in no hurry.
As far as I can tell, your entire claim was destroyed in post 2.

Source 1:

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

What is it men cannot be made to believe!

-Thomas Jefferson to Richard Henry Lee, April 22, 1786. (on the British regarding America, but quoted here for its universal appeal.)

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.

-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814

You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, June 25, 1819

As you say of yourself, I too am an Epicurian. I consider the genuine (not the imputed) doctrines of Epicurus as containing everything rational in moral philosophy which Greece and Rome have left us.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, Oct. 31, 1819

Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820

To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820

Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind.

-Thomas Jefferson to James Smith, 1822.

I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825

All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Roger C. Weightman, June 24, 1826 (in the last letter he penned)

Source 2:

"Our Constitution... has not left the religion of its citizens under the power of its public functionaries, were it possible that any of these should consider a conquest over the consciences of men either attainable or applicable to any desirable purpose." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to New London Methodists, 1809. ME 16:332

"I do not believe it is for the interest of religion to invite the civil magistrate to direct its exercises, its discipline, or its doctrines; nor of the religious societies, that the General Government should be invested with the power of effecting any uniformity of time or matter among them. Fasting and prayer are religious exercises. The enjoining them, an act of discipline. Every religious society has a right to determine for itself the times for these exercises and the objects proper for them according to their own particular tenets; and this right can never be safer than in their own hands where the Constitution has deposited it... Everyone must act according to the dictates of his own reason, and mine tells me that civil powers alone have been given to the President of the United States, and no authority to direct the religious exercises of his constituents." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Miller, 1808. ME 11:429

"To suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous fallacy which at once destroys all religious liberty, because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own." --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2: 546

"The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man." --Thomas Jefferson to Jeremiah Moor, 1800.

"I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendency of one sect over another." --Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799. ME 10:78

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own." --Thomas Jefferson to Horatio G. Spafford, 1814. ME 14:119

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson: Bill for Religious Freedom, 1779. Papers 2:545


That's just a few.

Also, you should read up on the Jefferson Bible:

Unless of course you have something new to present, you will just be making yourself look dishonest and foolish.
 
I guess, I'll have to bring in the evidence again and again. When I get the time I will (again). Since this will be at least the third time I've done this I will be in no hurry.


Really.

We're still waiting for the first time.

The first time you give us real evidence, from primary sources, rather than quotes from people like the American Center of Lying for Jesus.
 
Really.

We're still waiting for the first time.

The first time you give us real evidence, from primary sources, rather than quotes from people like the American Center of Lying for Jesus.

I think you mean the American Center for Law and Justice. Jay Sekulow is a primary source.

Edited by Cleon: 
Hotlinked image removed.

Jay Sekulow
 
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I think you mean the American Center for Law and Justice.

Well, they're not much for law or justice, but they sure seem to like lying for Jesus. So from where I'm sitting Tanstaafl's characterization is correct.

Jay Sekulow is a primary source.

Not in this context, he isn't.

(And if you read earlier in this thread, even when he was a primary source for the conversation, he had a tendency to screw the facts up.)
 
it is possible for Jefferson (or anyone else) to vehemently be against official state religions (establishments) and still admire and support the teachings of Christianity.
Sure, it's possible. As far as I can tell, though, the only teaching of Christianity he admired and supported was "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." He rejected immaculate conception, and the virgin birth. He rejected the "miracles" of Jesus, and his resurrection. He vehemently rejected the idea of the trinity:

No historical fact is better established, than that the doctrine of one God, pure and uncompounded, was that of the early ages of Christianity . . . Nor was the unity of the Supreme Being ousted from the Christian creed by the force of reason, but by the sword of civil government, wielded at the will of the Athanasius. The hocus-pocus phantasm of a God like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands of martyrs . . . The Athanasian paradox that one is three, and three but one, is so incomprehensible to the human mind, that no candid man can say he has any idea of it, and how can he believe what presents no idea? He who thinks he does, only deceives himself. He proves, also, that man, once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind. With such person, gullibility which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason, and the mind becomes a wreck.
 
I was amazed and amused to stumble across this thread. I read most of it and I was wondering whether the original poster was truly talking about the same Thomas Jefferson whom Alexander Hamilton called a "fanatic and an atheist" and who is quoted immediately in Luebke as calling the clergy any or all of the following:

>> Cannibals

>> Mountebanks

>> Charlatans

>> Pious and whining hypocrites

>> Necromancers

>> Mystery-mongers

Maybe DOC's talking about a different guy than the third president of the USA.
 
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