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DOC

Philosopher
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Yes, according to an audio tape of Dr. James Kennedy of Ft. Lauderdale Florida, Thomas Jefferson was a Bible Scholar who read the Bible daily. Jefferson read the Bible in English, Greek, Latin, and French. Jefferson also contributed his own money to 10 different churches in the 8 years he was president.

He also stated that Jefferson attended church every week for seven years in the Rotunda of the Congress building and ordered the Marine band to play to support the singing and hymns.

I'll get into the Seperation of Church and State misinformation and deception later as time permits.
 
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Source 1:

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

What is it men cannot be made to believe!

-Thomas Jefferson to Richard Henry Lee, April 22, 1786. (on the British regarding America, but quoted here for its universal appeal.)

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.

-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814

You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, June 25, 1819

As you say of yourself, I too am an Epicurian. I consider the genuine (not the imputed) doctrines of Epicurus as containing everything rational in moral philosophy which Greece and Rome have left us.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, Oct. 31, 1819

Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820

To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820

Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind.

-Thomas Jefferson to James Smith, 1822.

I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825

All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Roger C. Weightman, June 24, 1826 (in the last letter he penned)

Source 2:

"Our Constitution... has not left the religion of its citizens under the power of its public functionaries, were it possible that any of these should consider a conquest over the consciences of men either attainable or applicable to any desirable purpose." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to New London Methodists, 1809. ME 16:332

"I do not believe it is for the interest of religion to invite the civil magistrate to direct its exercises, its discipline, or its doctrines; nor of the religious societies, that the General Government should be invested with the power of effecting any uniformity of time or matter among them. Fasting and prayer are religious exercises. The enjoining them, an act of discipline. Every religious society has a right to determine for itself the times for these exercises and the objects proper for them according to their own particular tenets; and this right can never be safer than in their own hands where the Constitution has deposited it... Everyone must act according to the dictates of his own reason, and mine tells me that civil powers alone have been given to the President of the United States, and no authority to direct the religious exercises of his constituents." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Miller, 1808. ME 11:429

"To suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous fallacy which at once destroys all religious liberty, because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own." --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2: 546

"The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man." --Thomas Jefferson to Jeremiah Moor, 1800.

"I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendency of one sect over another." --Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799. ME 10:78

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own." --Thomas Jefferson to Horatio G. Spafford, 1814. ME 14:119

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson: Bill for Religious Freedom, 1779. Papers 2:545


That's just a few.

Also, you should read up on the Jefferson Bible:

Jefferson wished to extract the doctrine of Jesus by removing sections of the New Testament containing supernatural aspects as well as perceived misinterpretations he believed had been added by the Four Evangelists. In essence, Thomas Jefferson, along with many other founding fathers, did not believe in Jesus's divinity, the Trinity, resurrection, miracles, or any other supernatural aspect described in the bible.
 
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DOC,

I'm sorry, my last couple of posts were rude.

You are welcome here to discuss and claim whatever you like, but unless you can support what you're saying very few, if any, people here are going to put any stock into your insinuations that Jefferson was some sort of religious Christian.

There can be no doubt that Jefferson respected the moral teachings of Jesus, but not to the exclusion of all others. He certainly didn't feel that Jesus was in any way devine.
 
This was my initial reaction, as well.

I can't wait for DOC's Seperation of Church and State misinformation.

All of the quotes I provided have the source documents cited. Unless DOC comes up with a never before seen document authenticated to Jefferson's writing that can repeal every quote I provided, I'd say there's not much evidence but reaching conclusions and wishful thinking. I don't know what "financial support" DOC refers to, but given the quotes on the Gospels and Christianity provided I'd say it was unlikely.

In other words: Game Over. The quotes I provided clearly establish Jefferson's stance on separation of Church and State, as well as establish his lack of belief in the divinity of Jesus.

However, let's see what he has to offer.
 
I could well believe a wealthy and apparently charitable man like Jefferson gave money to some churches and religious groups. After all why shouldn't he if he believed they were going to do or were doing something good?
 
I could well believe a wealthy and apparently charitable man like Jefferson gave money to some churches and religious groups. After all why shouldn't he if he believed they were going to do or were doing something good?

Well exactly. But I would imagine the intent of the donation was not support of the church specifically, but the act of charity intended.


ETA: Of course I know of no evidence for any of his donations personally. Perhaps someone can provide it.
 
But want I realy want to know is, why it matters one way or annother what Jefferson thought on this issue, he's been dead for over 180 years, hasn't the debate moved on at all in that time?
Unless we can infer that DOC had an ulterior motive from the tag line of his OP, the topic is Jefferson's religious beliefs and, apparently, various people's attempts to re-write history to make Jefferson into something he was not, namely a good devout Christian. In that regard, Jefferson's thoughts on the issue very much matter.
 
But want I realy want to know is, why it matters one way or annother what Jefferson thought on this issue, he's been dead for over 180 years, hasn't the debate moved on at all in that time?

No, it has not, because the United States is still bound by his principles.

What Jefferson, indeed all of the Founding Fathers, thought still matters because many laws, legal interpretations and court decisions are made by first determining as closely as possible the Founders' intentions when they wrote the Constitution, Bill of Rights and our other charters. We even follow their precepts when we want to change what they laid down.

Fowlsound: Thanks for the spadework. I'm pasting it into a seperate document for later reference.

FWIW, we donate quite regularly to the local Catholic church and the Salvation Army. What does that signify, regarding our religious views?
 
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FWIW, we donate quite regularly to the local Catholic church and the Salvation Army. What does that signify, regarding our religious views?

I can beat that. At various points I've donated to several local mosques.
 
That Fowlsound is one bad dude. Only guy badder is TJ himself.

What a pleasure it is to read all those prime nuggets of 18th. century prose. That's why those old dead guys are still around: They could think, and they could express what they thought!

Over to you, DOC.
 
That Fowlsound is one bad dude. Only guy badder is TJ himself.

What a pleasure it is to read all those prime nuggets of 18th. century prose. That's why those old dead guys are still around: They could think, and they could express what they thought!

Over to you, DOC.

Hey thanks.

Is the Magic Bag still open on Woodward Ave.?
 
I can't wait for DOC's Seperation of Church and State misinformation.

I'm curious too. I think Jefferson's ideas on the subject are not well or widely understood, frankly - and in that sense I suppose one could say there is misinformation circulating - but I'm not sure DOC is the right person to shed any light.
 
Unless we can infer that DOC had an ulterior motive from the tag line of his OP, the topic is Jefferson's religious beliefs and, apparently, various people's attempts to re-write history to make Jefferson into something he was not, namely a good devout Christian. In that regard, Jefferson's thoughts on the issue very much matter.

I don't really find anything in his selection of quotes that makes me believe that he was not a christian. We can fight over what exactly devout means...

I myself have made statements much like the ones above, though not so eloquently, and taken some of the same exceptions to what I see as nonsense within the religious establishment. I don't feel any less christian or devout for voicing my frustrations...
 
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