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Does atheism differ from agnosticism?

Originally Posted by NorfolkAtheist
You may be using differing definitions than I am, but if you agree that...

Theism = belief in a deity or deities
Atheism = absence of a belief in a deity or deities

...then that covers 100% of humanity. You either have such a belief or you do not.



I don't know which one to believe. I will never know which one to believe.


Maybe it would be better to say

THEISM = Belief in diety/dieties
ATHEISM = Absence of belief in diety/dieties because of no evidence. Firm in belief of absence.
AGNOSTICISM = Belief in the real possibility of existence of diety/dieties, but not commited.


ALL people fall into either of the 3.

Which would you be apology?


Cheers,
DrZ

Proud Atheist
 
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Maybe a 3rd catagory to add to the above quote would make it:

THEISM = Belief in diety/dieties
ATHEISM = Absence of belief in diety/dieties
AGNOSTICISM = Belief in the real possibility of existence of diety/dieties, but not commited.


ALL people fall into either of the 3.

Which would you be apology?


Cheers,
DrZ

Proud Atheist

I would fall into the 3rd category, but I can't speak for all agnostics. Many of them are indeed "weak atheists" in that they believe God probably doesn't exist, but aren't fully committed to the idea. I don't think they should have to call themselves "weak atheists" unless they want to. Even the agnostic page on wikipedia has substituted the word "mild" for "weak" in recognition that nobody wants to be a "weak" anything.
 
If it's a subset it differs from theism.

It doesn't really matter though, 20 minutes haven't passed, so I've changed my mind again and I'm an atheist now. I also have another 20 minute interval in which to change sides yet again. It's likely that I will.


LOL...Gotta love it!!

People have to realize that there IS a middle ground, which is what agnosticism is.

The previous posts saying:
Theism = Belief
Atheism = Lack of belief

Left out the believe in the possibility os diety existing, but unsure.


A non religious example would be:

People either believe:
A = Belief that Michael Jordon = GREATEST HOOPS PLAYER (= Theism)
B = LACK OF Belief that Michael Jordon = GREATEST PLAYER (= Atheism)

If saying that if one doesn't believe in A, then B MUST Be true, I must
interject by saying "Not so fast there"

A 3rd category would be.

C - I dunno. He MAY be the greatest, but I'm not saying he is.
He MAY NOT be the greatest, but I'm not saying that either.
I just don't know enough about Hoops to say one way or the other.
(Agnosticism)


So, failure to believe in A does NOT equate to belief in B.


Cheers,
DrZ
 
I prefer to consider myself an agnostic apathetic. I don't know, and I don't care. Sports is the higher power anyway.
 
To say that Buddhists are atheists is a simple misunderstanding and oversimplification of Buddhism. There are theistic sects of Buddhism:

http://books.google.com/books?id=mu...ts=eUzOJv77Eb&sig=x6t-KESxxPc_IlJhdE3yUpBG6To

The non-theistic Buddhists are more likely to gather in support of the theistic Buddhists than they are to side with atheism. Many would argue for a third category for primarily non-theistic religions or for religions that are not unified on one view of theism. The idea that Buddhists are atheists is undoubtedly much less popular in Asia than it is in Western society. Buddhism loses a lot in translation, and only the most "sensible" portions are taught in the US.
 
A non religious example would be:

People either believe:
A = Belief that Michael Jordon = GREATEST HOOPS PLAYER (= Theism)
B = LACK OF Belief that Michael Jordon = GREATEST PLAYER (= Atheism)

If saying that if one doesn't believe in A, then B MUST Be true, I must
interject by saying "Not so fast there"

A 3rd category would be.

C - I dunno. He MAY be the greatest, but I'm not saying he is.
He MAY NOT be the greatest, but I'm not saying that either.
I just don't know enough about Hoops to say one way or the other.
(Agnosticism)


So, failure to believe in A does NOT equate to belief in B.


Cheers,
DrZ


This example fails; all of those who fit into category C also fit into category B (although that wouldn't mean that all of those in category B would fit into category C).
 
In your case, you've been asked, very simply, "Do you believe that god exists?" Yes, there are layers of explanation and uncertainty that lie behind the answer to that question no matter who is asking and who is answering, but the simple fact of the matter is that if you cannot answer yes to that question, you are a de facto atheist. Kindly deal with it.


I'm sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree on this one and back up Apology. First, let me clarify that I'm 100% atheist through and through.

However, when apology was confronted with these 2 choices

A. Theism = Belief in Diety
B. Atheism = Lack of belief in a diety

He was left out with the 3rd option.

C. Agnosticism = Belief that a diety MIGHT exist, but is unsure.
He doesn't disavow the existence of a diety (Atheism), but nor
does he avow the existence of a diety (Theist).

Being that:
A. He doesn't outright believe no god exists and doesn't hold out hope for one's existence (which would be what an Atheist is)
B. He doesn't outright beieve that a god (diety) does exist (Theist)

Rather, there is a 3rd belief
C. Belief in the real possibility that god may exist. Seriously believes that
maybe there *might* be a god.

Now, I can't see how that belief characterizes him as being a Theist,
since he says he doesn't have an outright belief that a diety does in fact
exist. Also, I can't see how that makes him an atheist. An athiest has a REAL belief , because of no evidence to the contrary, that there is no such thing as a god. They really don't hold out any hope that any type of spiritual diety exists.

But, when someone falls into neither of these 2 firm catagories, they can often fill the "grey" area because the world isn't as simple as black and white,
yes or know. There's the 3rd area. The "I don't know"

This area holds out the real possibility of the existence of a diety/god. They believe that this possibility can certainly exist. Because they have no proof of
the existence of a diety, combined with the real possibility that one may indeed exist, they fall into the category of agnosticism.

What differentiates practicing agnostics (and I'm not refer to definitions of the word but rather how people practice beliefs in real life and use the word),
is that they think god might exist. But they don't say "Yes, I believe a god exists. And to the contrary, they believe that a god might not exist. But they don't say "I don't believe that god exists". They really don't know if one exists, but they don't lead a religious life worshipping a god, nor do they live a life by saying that no god exists.

That's what an agnostic believes. They believe the "maybe". They hold out for the possibility that a diety might exist. An atheist generally doesn't really think there's any real possibilty of the existence of god.


Because, in reality, EVERYONE, by definition, is an agnostic. Since no one truly knows with absolute certainty if any type of diety exists anywhere, in or out of our universe, we'll have to assume that
if one wants to get technical, that everyone is an agnostic. But, for argument's sake, let's just assume it refers to what people believe to be the truth, and to what degree do they believe in their own belief.

Some a set. They belief 100% one way or the other. But not all are like that.
Some religious people truly believe a god exists, but wouldn't say their belief is strong.
Other religious people claim to KNOW god exists.
Some atheists claim to KNOW that god does NOT exist
Some atheists just say that they don't believe because of lack of evidence, but they leave
open the slighest possibility that a god might exist.
While most agnostics will claim to not know. BUT, they leave open the REAL possibility that
a god does exist. But because of lack real evidence, they choose not to actively believe that
god is one of the gods of religion. But they also don't discount the belief that there may indeed
be a god. They truly don't know. Not a hard concept to grasp, is it?

IOW:
Theists: YES - god exists (based on passed down stories)
Atheists: NO - god does NOT exist (based on lack of evidence) Holds out
no serious hope that a god exists. Believes in little or no possibility in existence
Agnostic: MAYBE. Might exist, might not exist. They can be 50/50 or lean
more one way or the other. Truly believes a god MIGHT exist. Open to possibility.

Finally, THEIST AGNOSTICS often use the Agnostic because Agnostic simply means "Without Knowledge". Because it's used for its religious meaning as
a belief people have, the "without knowledge" to Theist Agnostics refers to them not having the knowledge of WHICH RELIGION is the "correct religion".
They believe in a god, but do not follow any set religion or their beliefs or practices. They just don't which religion has it right, but they believe that a god exists. How powerful a god? That varies. Some believe in a god that only set the universe in motion, while others believe everything up to being omnipotent and every other omni word there is. But they just don't know which religion is the *true* one of a god. It may be none of them, but they believe a god of some sort exists. They are definitely THEISTS, but because they don't follow any religion, they also consider themselves to be Agnostics,
because as far as religion is concerned, they are "without knowledge" to know which is the one of their personal god.

So, Apology, you my friend are a true AGNOSTIC. This is what the term was made for. You couldn't be a better example of a true agnostic.


Cheers,
DrZ
 
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LOL...Gotta love it!!

People have to realize that there IS a middle ground, which is what agnosticism is.

The previous posts saying:
Theism = Belief
Atheism = Lack of belief

Left out the believe in the possibility os diety existing, but unsure.


A non religious example would be:

People either believe:
A = Belief that Michael Jordon = GREATEST HOOPS PLAYER (= Theism)
B = LACK OF Belief that Michael Jordon = GREATEST PLAYER (= Atheism)

If saying that if one doesn't believe in A, then B MUST Be true, I must
interject by saying "Not so fast there"

A 3rd category would be.

C - I dunno. He MAY be the greatest, but I'm not saying he is.
He MAY NOT be the greatest, but I'm not saying that either.
I just don't know enough about Hoops to say one way or the other.
(Agnosticism)


So, failure to believe in A does NOT equate to belief in B.


Cheers,
DrZ
I agree with you completely. There is no reason why atheists and agnostics can't co-exist peacefully under this explanation. You have worded my argument better than I've worded it myself.

I'm just asking for time to watch some games, and maybe after that I still won't feel like I have enough information to declare Michael Jordan the greatest, or not the greatest, so I don't want to be put into the not-the-greatest camp until I'm sure. I don't think it's true that I should be assumed to not think he's the greatest just because I don't know anything about him or can't decide.

(Michael Jordan is pretty good even though I truly know nothing about basketball other than the general rules of how to play :blush: Those underwear he's selling are pretty good though.)
 
I'm sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree on this one and back up Apology. First, let me clarify that I'm 100% atheist through and through.

However, when apology was confronted with these 2 choices

A. Theism = Belief in Diety
B. Atheism = Lack of belief in a diety

He was left out with the 3rd option.

C. Agnosticism = Belief that a diety MIGHT exist, but is unsure.
He doesn't disavow the existence of a diety (Atheism), but nor
does he avow the existence of a diety (Theist).

Being that:
A. He doesn't outright believe no god exists and doesn't hold out hope for one's existence (which would be what an Atheist is)
B. He doesn't outright beieve that a god (diety) does exist (Theist)

Rather, there is a 3rd belief
C. Belief in the real possibility that god may exist. Seriously believes that
maybe there *might* be a god.

Now, I can't see how that belief characterizes him as being a Theist,
since he says he doesn't have an outright belief that a diety does in fact
exist. Also, I can't see how that makes him an atheist. An athiest has a REAL belief , because of no evidence to the contrary, that there is no such thing as a god. They really don't hold out any hope that any type of spiritual diety exists.

But, when someone falls into neither of these 2 firm catagories, they can often fill the "grey" area because the world isn't as simple as black and white,
yes or know. There's the 3rd area. The "I don't know"

This area holds out the real possibility of the existence of a diety/god. They believe that this possibility can certainly exist. Because they have no proof of
the existence of a diety, combined with the real possibility that one may indeed exist, they fall into the category of agnosticism.

What differentiates practicing agnostics (and I'm not refer to definitions of the word but rather how people practice beliefs in real life and use the word),
is that they think god might exist. But they don't say "Yes, I believe a god exists. And to the contrary, they believe that a god might not exist. But they don't say "I don't believe that god exists". They really don't know if one exists, but they don't lead a religious life worshipping a god, nor do they live a life by saying that no god exists.

That's what an agnostic believes. They belief the the "maybe"

IOW:
Theists: YES - god exists (based on passed down stories)
Atheists: NO - god does NOT exist (based on lack of evidence) Holds out
no serious hope that a god exists
Agnostic: MAYBE. Might exist, might not exist. They can be 50/50 or lean
more one way or the other. Holds out hope a god does exist.

Finally, THEIST AGNOSTICS often use the Agnostic because Agnostic simply means "Without Knowledge". Because it's used for its religious meaning as
a belief people have, the "without knowledge" to Theist Agnostics refers to them not having the knowledge of WHICH RELIGION is the "correct religion".
They believe in a god, but do not follow any set religion or their beliefs or practices. They just don't which religion has it right, but they believe that a god exists. How powerful a god? That varies. Some believe in a god that only set the universe in motion, while others believe everything up to being omnipotent and every other omni word there is. But they just don't know which religion is the *true* one of a god. It may be none of them, but they believe a god of some sort exists. They are definitely THEISTS, but because they don't follow any religion, they also consider themselves to be Agnostics,
because as far as religion is concerned, they are "without knowledge" to know which is the one of their personal god.

So, Apology, you my friend are a true AGNOSTIC. This is what the term was made for. You couldn't be a better example of a true agnostic.


Cheers,
DrZ

LOL thank you, I just responded to the wrong post, although I agree with both of them. I meant to type my last response underneath this quote.
 
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I'm sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree on this one and back up Apology. First, let me clarify that I'm 100% atheist through and through.

However, when apology was confronted with these 2 choices

A. Theism = Belief in Diety
B. Atheism = Lack of belief in a diety

He was left out with the 3rd option.

C. Agnosticism = Belief that a diety MIGHT exist, but is unsure.
He doesn't disavow the existence of a diety (Atheism), but nor
does he avow the existence of a diety (Theist).

Baloney. Option B does not necessitate that he "disavow the existence of a deity." Option B only entails that he lack the defining belief of option A. Your option "C" should rightly be a sub-category of B, and not a separate third category.
 
This example fails; all of those who fit into category C also fit into category B (although that wouldn't mean that all of those in category B would fit into category C).


Of course not. Category B states JORDON NOT GREATEST.
Many just aren't commiting to voting. Failure to pick sides does not
mean you pick the other side. IOW, failure to pick A (leaving only
option B) does NOT automatically put you in option B. Because you
didn't choose an option because of lack of knowing basketball doesn't
mean that someone without the info thinks Jordon is NOT the greatest.

What can't you understand about that. Ask a tribesman in the Amazon if
A - Jordon is the greatest hoop player.
or
B Jordon is NOT the greatest.

Failure to pick A does NOT necessarily mean B is the choice.

Tribesman in Amazon would say: "I don't know who Jordon is. He MIGHT
be greatest, he MIGHT NOT be greatest. BEFORE a choice (decision) is made,
than option C is still available. Once someone decides to choose, option
C ("I don't know") disappears. BUT, don't you dare tell the tribesman that he
HAS to choose or that he has a time limit on when to choose. Let him stay as undecided as long as he wants. Let him read the history of basketball and read all the stats and THEN make a decision. UNTIL THEN, option C is a REAL and VIABLE option. NO ONE IS FORCED to make a decision and choose what type of player Jordon was. Because of that, option C MUST be made available for those who haven't made up their mind on how they wanna vote.
They are allowed to say "I don't know" for as long as they want.

Same parallel with religion and Apology being an agnostic. He doesn't know, and has every right to withold his vote for as long as its something that isn't clear enough to make a reasonable choice. This may be an entire lifetime.

Hope that explains more.

Cheers,
DrZ
 
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Of course not. Category B states JORDON NOT GREATEST.

No it doesn't. It says, "B = LACK OF Belief that Michael Jordon = GREATEST PLAYER (= Atheism)."

Lack of belief simply means that you can't say that "Jordan is the greatest." That's it. You don't have to say "Jordan is not the greatest". You don't have to say anything about Jordan at all.
 
Baloney. Option B does not necessitate that he "disavow the existence of a deity." Option B only entails that he lack the defining belief of option A. Your option "C" should rightly be a sub-category of B, and not a separate third category.


First off, semantics aside, in the real world, it's generally known that
atheists simply don't believe a god exits (disavowing god's existence) because there is not one shred of evidence that any god does in fact
exixst.

Secondly, people don't have to choose EITHER option.

Basically, you're assuming everyone has made a choice on whether they believe a god exists. Why would someone make have a belief of something if they aren't comfortable in making a decison in what to believe.

Bottom line. Some people believe that god exists (theists), others
lack this belief (atheists), while others think god MAY exist, yet haven't
even come to ANY belief because they are still formulating an opinion based
on looking more into the subject. (Agnostic)

And yes, OF COURSE atheists know that god "might" exist. It's the level
of this belief in "might exist" that differs from an agnostic. An agnostic has a true
and real belief that a god might really, truly, exist.

That's not what any atheist I know believes. Semantics aside, in the real world,
atheists don't really have much belief that a god does really, truly exist.

And when I say atheists, I certainly don't mean every atheist in the world.
But generally, yeah, an atheist has a real good feeling that god doesn't exist. REAL Good.

If someone doesn't have this REAL GOOD feeling that god doesn't exists, and holds
out some REAL possibilty that some type of god exists, and may even be leaning
to this probabilty 70/30 for god's existence, that's someone called an agnostic.
But they are not saying a god DOES exist. Also, they aren't saying they have
a lack of belief that god definitely doesn't exist.
Hasn't commited either way. Atheists generally commit to NOT EXIST (or however you
want to phrase it...but it's that type of lack of belief in gods existence. Not very shaky
at all..not at all. Almost always pretty darn certain.

Now, people can play games and and try to categorize people into A or B, but for heaven's sake, let someone make up their own mind on what to believe and when they want to commit to this belief. Some may never make up their mind.

So finally, for the last time. This is how people identify themselves in the world. (Argue semantics if you want, I'm just telling you why someone identifies themselves under each example)

Theist - Yes - God Exists
Atheists - No - Lacks belief in a god for lack of evidence
Agnostics - MAYBE - God might really exist, or..bummer..might not exist
at all.

In the real world. Most (nothing is 100%) of atheists would claim B
as being themselves. They honestly don't hold out hope that a god really
does exist. Thiests would always claim B. But C is an option. When someone
hasn't formulated an opinion, they CAN'T be described or categorized as either.
Failure to make a choice on what to believe (or not) does NOT put them in Cat A OR Cat B. There's Cat C, "Don't know if there is or isn't a god. Has true belief that god has a real chance of existing, but is realistic enough to know there is also a real chance that there is none.

This NO WAY can lead to them being labeled as a theist. Theists have
a real belief that god does really exist. It's clear that someone in CAT C
doesn't feel the same way. It's also clear that someone in Cat C isn't
an atheist because they, in no way, state a lack of belief.

They really didn't state anything. They just stated they they don't know if god exists, but god definitely has a possibility of existence. Almost every
atheist I know would not use the prior sentence to describe their beliefs.

That's the difference. Agnostics have a sincere belief that god may exist.
Real life atheists do not have a since belief that god may exist. They
have no belief in gods existence based on the facts of no evidence, and they haren't really holding their breaths waiting for some proof to pop up.

It's very easy to understand. I don't know if it's semantics that are getting in the way here. But there is a 3rd choice, without question. And that would
most definitely include those who have yet to formulate a basis for their opinion on the subject and are still educating themselves, leaving all options open. I can't possibly see how choosing NO OPTION as a belief can put someone into either category of Theist or Atheist.


It seems that I keep writing the same explanations over and over, so I think that's a good sign that I've exhausted my small capacity to attempt to explain this. I'll respectfully sit back and read any future replies to my posts.
I just don't wanna keep repeating myself any longer. No disrespect meant.

Cheers,
DrZ


Cheers,
DrZ
 
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No it doesn't. It says, "B = LACK OF Belief that Michael Jordon = GREATEST PLAYER (= Atheism)."

Lack of belief simply means that you can't say that "Jordan is the greatest." That's it. You don't have to say "Jordan is not the greatest". You don't have to say anything about Jordan at all.


True, you don't have to SAY anything at all. It's your belief that's in question.

BUT, if you don't have any information, or limited info, you can't formulate a reasonable believe (at least one shouldn't).

So, the tribesman in the Amazon, knowing just the very minimum about basketball (from a missionary) chooses not to make a choice whether he is the greatest because of lack of knowledge. Common sense (plus the missionary) tells him that Jordon was great player. But the greatest?
He's not ready to decide either way. He believes he MIGHT be the greatest,
he believes he MIGHT NOT be the greatest. His opinions change as more info comes his way. Either option is open.

NO ONE knows his beliefs until he lets someone know what he believes about Jordon. Therefore, with NO stated beliefs, he can't believe either.

Just like Schroedinger's cat. Until someone looks at it, it can either be dead or alive. Once its looked at..bingo. Same with beliefs. Without believing in anything, and being open to all, then anything is an option.


Cheers,
DrZ
 
True, you don't have to SAY anything at all. It's your belief that's in question.

BUT, if you don't have any information, or limited info, you can't formulate a reasonable believe (at least one shouldn't).

You don't have to have any belief at all (much less a reasonable belief) to lack the belief that Jordan is the greatest. It's like how you don't have to have some money to not have a dollar; you can be broke and not have a dollar too.

There is really no point in going on about this. We have hit a brick wall of semantics. I do not accept your very limited definition of atheism, nor your definition of agnosticism (which ignores the existence of agnostic atheists and agnostic theists alike). You appear unwilling to accept that atheism can come in the two flavors of weak atheism and strong atheism, and also unwilling to accept that agnosticism is a belief about knowledge (not a belief about god) that can apply to atheists and theists alike. There are already pages and pages of posts in this thread exhaustively explaining these definitions. I can do nothing more than repeat them, but I take it you've read all of these posts and nothing has swayed you. Oh well.
 
True, you don't have to SAY anything at all. It's your belief that's in question.

BUT, if you don't have any information, or limited info, you can't formulate a reasonable believe (at least one shouldn't).

And if you don't do that, then you don't hold a belief. You lack one. That makes you a-x-ist.

I really, really don't understand why people are so hung up about this - so I'll side with NorfolkAtheist here.

Is it that some people take offence to the wording "to lack belief"? Would it help if this was reworded without the negative connotations?

Is that people just don't want to be forced on a side, even if there demonstrably just are two sides?

I keep seeing people fail to follow the distinction about "belief about X" and "belief about knowledge about x" (and possibly other distinct variations). Is that really so hard to understand? Or what is it I am not seeing/understanding myself?
 
And if you don't do that, then you don't hold a belief. You lack one. That makes you a-x-ist.

I really, really don't understand why people are so hung up about this - so I'll side with NorfolkAtheist here.

Is it that some people take offence to the wording "to lack belief"? Would it help if this was reworded without the negative connotations?

Is that people just don't want to be forced on a side, even if there demonstrably just are two sides?

I keep seeing people fail to follow the distinction about "belief about X" and "belief about knowledge about x" (and possibly other distinct variations). Is that really so hard to understand? Or what is it I am not seeing/understanding myself?
No. The problem is implicit atheism. Repeating "A-theism means "without God" and "It's a lack of belief, not disbelief in God" doesn't make implicit atheism more palatable to a lot of us. It's not a failure to follow the argument, it's a refusal to accept the argument as truth.

There are not demonstrably two sides. You only think there are because you believe in implicit atheism. If you expect me to believe in implicit atheism, then I'm not ever going to be an atheist, even if I decide that I "lack a belief in God". It would not help to reword it again. It has already been reworded from "A belief that God does not exist."
 
No. The problem is implicit atheism. Repeating "A-theism means "without God" and "It's a lack of belief, not disbelief in God" doesn't make implicit atheism more palatable to a lot of us.

Wether it is palatable to you is not the issue. Maybe it's not "palatable" to me that I fit the usual definition of "German", as well as some unusual ones. I fit them, though.

It's not a failure to follow the argument, it's a refusal to accept the argument as truth.

An argument is either valid or not. It's premises are either true or not. The conclusions are either correct or not.

Whether you refuse to accept any of that has no bearing on the argument.

There are not demonstrably two sides. You only think there are because you believe in implicit atheism.

I believe in it? What does believing in it has got to do with anything?

Implicit atheism simply describes a phenomenon that is entirely possible. Again, you just dislike the label but have nothing to offer that would show that it doesn't or couldn't exist. You just don't want it to be called "atheism".

If you expect me to believe in implicit atheism, then I'm not ever going to be an atheist, even if I decide that I "lack a belief in God".

Yes, you would!

It's really not a question of whether you like it. If you agree on a definition, then you either fit or not.

It would not help to reword it again. It has already been reworded from "A belief that God does not exist."

There are too many "it"s in that part for me to understand what you're trying to say.

Allow me to give it a stab, though:

If the defintion of atheism is changed, then it might make a difference to whether you are one or not. Once again, it simply doesn't matter if you like being called an "atheist".
 

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