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Intelligent design's predictions

This is only a problem for you mijo, presumably because you stubbornly refuse to consider, let alone admit, that you don't know what you are talking about

And this is exactly what your problem is: you continue to insist that I have no idea what I am tralking about while it is quite obviously you have no idea what you are talking about.

I have given a fairly detailed description of what the defintion of mathmatical probability is and have also given a sensible explanation of how that relates to the empirical observation of evolution. I have explained that the "common" defintion, which you, articulett, and (strangely enough) creationists and intelligent proponents seem to be using, is almost antithetical to the mathematical definition in that the "common" definition is predicated on randomness having no pattern whereas that the mathmatical definition describes randomness in terms of functions (i.e., mathematical patterns). Furthermore, I have also explained that probability theory abounds with laws and theorems that require sequences of random variables to converge on specified values given constant sampling criteria.

You should really explain what you don't understand about my explanations rather than attacking my knowledge of the subject and my character. In other your should actually participate in the discussion rather than sitting on the sidelines and hurling insults.
 
ETA: * This is in reference to your use of the word 'imply' (not your spelling)

And you should realize that there are many ways in which to use a given and that just because I use a word differently than you do (but still according to how it is defined in the dictionary) doesn't mean that I am stupid or that I am trying to obfuscate.
 
Indeed. As a genetic counselor I was required to pass board exams on Bayesian statistics and probability. Mijo couldn't pass the most basic of such courses. He hasn't a clue, but imagines himself an expert. How fascinating that he would pretend that others have a creationist viewpoint when it is only the creationists who think that calling evolution "random" is explanatory. He couldn't explain natural selection to anyone, because he shows not a smidgen of understanding himself. This is a guy who came to this forum not understanding the "discontinuity" in the fossil record less than a year ago. And he thinks that someone other than him might pay attention to his drivel about evolution? Amazing.

Mijos postings in essence are all the same.

Scientists don't explain things right.
Evolution is random.
Articulett is a liar.
Not all religions are bad.
Those who criticize religion suck.
The experts suck.
I'm "technically correct".
What about this? "insert some reworked version of a creationist strawman"

I think I've summed it up, haven't I? Has anyone picked up some other message or gleaning?

What I want to know is if he watched the widely available viewing of the Dover Trial. Wouldn't anybody who imagined themselves experts on evolution and creationist tactics. Mijo pretends to have an expertise on both but shows no interest on any current developments on either. He has no interest in conveying information-- just confusing things in the same manner as Behe.

I know you want me to be nice wowbagger, but this is because you are assuming that mijo's integrity is on par with yours. Let Mijo, the imaginary expert, fight his own battles as he conveys Behe's "scientists think this all came about randomly" message to the world in an effort to convince himself. As far as I am concerned, this thread proves my conclusions rather well.
 
And this is exactly what your problem is:
mijo, calm down and think

In the context of this thread (and many, many others on this forum) I have NO problem - other than occasionally and temprorarirly being naive enough to assume that detailed, convoluted and jargon-riddled posts are written by those who not only know that they are talking about but are also sincere in the intent to spread knowledge and encourage critical thinking

Luckily for me, this forum has more than enough members who not only do fit that description but are also commited to debunking pseudo-science

With regard to your posts on evolution, you do not fit into the latter group

This, I repeat, is not my problem


I have explained...

No

You haven't

You have waffled on ad nauseum on a tangent of your own devising to the point where you have clearly illustrated that you don't understand evolution

Furthermore, I have also explained that probability theory abounds with laws and theorems...

Ditto


You should...

Since when did you start making the rules?


...explain what you don't understand about my explanations


Again, this is not my problem

I do understand them

I understand that they are wrong

I suspect that you, of all people, will be aware that minimal knowlege with regard to the theory of evolution precludes neither a familiarity with probability theory nor comprehension of English - especially when presented clearly and concisely

......your should actually participate in the discussion rather than sitting on the sidelines and hurling insults.

Hello? Since when are the two mutually exclusive?

For my insults aimed at you, I suppose I ought to say sorry...

Alas, I can't as I make a point of reserving my apologies for times when I regret my actions

As you are evidently so thick-skinned as to be able to ignore simple facts (e.g. your dogged insistence that you are right and the experts are wrong with regard to evolution and randomness), I see no reason to suggest that you care one way or the other what other people think

For me, the only real problem with this thread is your incessant and inane ramblings from a self-appointed and self-deluding position of an expert authority

Thanks to the ignore feature of the forum software and the input of those who can and are qualified to explain, this problem has long since been resolved... although I still do receive an automated email notification every f[rule-eight]ing time you post... but this is a problem I can live with
 
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Note that this post follows the OP, rather than the ongoing discussion. Once again I have failed to notice 9 pages. Heck, I probably posted somewhere else in this thread myself. :rolleyes: Oh well, it's a good post so I'm sticking to it. ;)
....With the exception of quantum leaps in architecture for which Behe coined the term "Irreducible complexity", the ID'ers seem to have entirely ignored these other expected features of intelligently designed artifacts. Needless to say, this is because there is a total absence of such features to be found anywhere in biology, and irreducible complexity currently amounts to little more than argument from ignorance or personal incredulity. But why is the ID hypothesis simply being dismissed as 'unscientific'? It's a reasonable hypothesis, it does make predictions of a sort, so why aren't the bastards being called out and made to explain why their designer designs with all the smarts of a drunken coot?

....Then the second point: the presumption that the designer must be god. No, this doesn't follow, maybe the Raelians are right and some space-alien did it. We know of at least one (semi) intelligent natural agent in this universe, and the most reasonable assumption is that if there has been intelligent designing going on, then it was done by some other intelligent natural agent; which may, for all we know, have evolved naturally. But again, god gets introduced and makes himself at home every time ID is discussed, whereas god is a complete non-sequitur. Why are the ID'ers allowed to run away over the hill with god every time?

I realise this has turned into a rant; but don't you think that ID'ers should rather be challenged on the absense of evidence for reasonably predictions made by ID, rather than just dismissing ID with the claim that it makes no predictions?
You are missing the fundamental reason why ID isn't science. Irreducible complexity is, but ID is not. And your proposed predictions are just a tad off base because they indicate 'human design' rather than simply 'design'.

Irreducible complexity does make predictions. They all failed when genetic science confirmed evolution and disproved Behe's irreducible flagellum. Turns out precursors do not always have obvious structural similarities. You can look into that for yourself and see what was found to be the likely precursor to the flagellum.

Likewise precursors to the mammal eye exist in nature to this day. Eye precursors were denied by the ignorant in statements like, "What do you do with half an eye?" which was another claim made ID proponents that has been refuted. It sounds like you recognize irreducible complexity's predictions have all failed. But you are unclear why ID isn't science.

There are 'tests' which can be applied to artifacts that indicate 'human design'. We identified those characteristics from observations. One can for example predict if those characteristics are found that there will be additional evidence humans designed the item in question. That would be a prediction hypothesized by the determined characteristics of 'human design'. It is because we can identify human design that the illusion is easily accepted we can identify components which identify inherent 'design' itself.

ID isn't within the realm of science because science needs evidence of the designer. You cannot determine something was designed without first knowing something about the designer. Say you went to a planet no humans existed on. And you saw some things which were natural and some that were designed and built by aliens. But, neither of the two resembled anything at all on Earth. You really would have nothing to base a conclusion on some things were designed.

You say the designed things would have a function. But nothing here resembles anything on Earth. How would you know if the alien was using something it found or something it made? How would you know if the pieces which broke off the thing the alien was using (cleaned up) were broken off first and the alien then used the item, or the alien broke the things off?

The only way you would know any of this would be to observe the alien finding or building the object. Nothing about the object itself would be clear evidence it was designed or not. Even if you saw little things and noted what looked like things which had grown you wouldn't know if the alien just made different sizes. If the things were stuck in the ground you wouldn't know if they were growing there or had been stuck there, or even if they had fallen there and became embedded or maybe the ground got soft and they sank then the ground got hard again. An alien bird could even build what looks like a tree in order to live in the top of it.

The only reason we know things were designed is because we have observed their origins and the designer.

Intelligent design as it is used in this case really amounts to magical design. Magical design could be anything. The concept of ID is someone's fantasy based on the illusion one can see things which are inherent design features. But if it is magically designed then there are no inherent features.

We would have to show that science can test for magical things. Magical things, by definition, don't follow the laws of nature. If we observed something which didn't follow the laws of nature, we wouldn't stop and say, well that must be magic. We would say here is something not yet explained.

Science has a specific set of rules called the scientific process. The one rule all these god theories violate is the rule that when you are left with magic as the explanation you really have no explanation. What you have is an unanswered question, not a question answered by, "god did it" or it came about because of magic. What would your testable prediction be? Magic happens so we should look for more of it? Irreducible complexity can be tested. Had it passed the test one would merely be left with the question, how did this thing come about? One would not be left with the answer, it came about by a magical designer.
 
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six7s-

You, articulett, and cyborg have repeatedly ignored my explanations, choosing to remain ignorant about what I am saying. Instead you have substitutes childish insult for reasoned discussion.

Could you actually attack my argument rather that attacking?

Note this would actually require reading my posts and explaining what you fon't understand about them rather than dismissing what I say out-of-hand becasue you don't wnat to take the time to distinguish me from a creationist.
 
And you should realize that there are many ways in which to use a given and that just because I use a word differently than you do (but still according to how it is defined in the dictionary) doesn't mean that I am stupid or that I am trying to obfuscate.
The Humpty Dumpty take on communication.

Woolly talk reveals woolly thinking. I doubt you're trying to obfuscate, far more likely you're not recognising how vague are the ideas you're trying to put across. They may be sufficient unto you, but when brought out in public they fail to impress.
 
six7s-

You, articulett, and cyborg have repeatedly ignored my explanations, choosing to remain ignorant about what I am saying.

mijopaalmc-

Your 'so-called' explanations have not been ignored, they have been debunked - something you seem incapable of acknowledging let alone comprehending
 
I suspect that you, of all people, will be aware that minimal knowlege with regard to the theory of evolution precludes neither a familiarity with probability theory nor comprehension of English - especially when presented clearly and concisely

That's the spirit :) ! Eschew obfuscation!

As you are evidently so thick-skinned as to be able to ignore simple facts ...

More precisely, the problem lies within a thick skull. As do so many.
 
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mijopaalmc-

Your 'so-called' explanations have not been ignored, they have been debunked - something you seem incapable of acknowledging let alone comprehending

OK, I'll bite.

Where have they been debunked without denying the validity of my definitions?
 
The Humpty Dumpty take on communication.

Woolly talk reveals woolly thinking. I doubt you're trying to obfuscate, far more likely you're not recognising how vague are the ideas you're trying to put across. They may be sufficient unto you, but when brought out in public they fail to impress.

Actually, no.

It's just an acknowledgement that people often use word according to differeing defintion and that, if there is to be any fruitful discussion, the people involved have to agree on a common set of definitions. In other words, simply sayinfg that a word is defined differently does not inherently invalidate the argument.

More to the point, the definitions that are most frequently rejected by those who disagree with me are perfectly valid deifinitions used in other fields with which those who reject them may not be familiar.
 
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The only reason we know things were designed is because we have observed their origins and the designer.

But Prometheus gave us fire, stolen from the gods, and without fire we'd have been designing none of it.

Intelligent design as it is used in this case really amounts to magical design. Magical design could be anything. The concept of ID is someone's fantasy based on the illusion one can see things which are inherent design features. But if it is magically designed then there are no inherent features.

Very nicely put. Unless some restrictions are applied to the Designer - such as "it did it for our sake out of love and goodness and a fiery anger that needed an outlet otherwise it just would have gone frickin' postal ...", for example only - then one cannot predict a signal of ID in any way.

"Irreducible Complexity" is just god getting chased into an ever smaller gap.
 
Where have they been debunked without denying the validity of my definitions?

Try casting your mind back to the period between 14th May 2007 and 11th September 2007 when 2,597 posts were made in a thread that YOU STARTED called What evidence is there for evolution being non-random?

If you need help pin-pointing the debunking, try this search string:
Results 1 - 10 of about 57 from forums.randi.org for dawkins mijo "evolution is not random"


OK, I'll bite

But will you swallow?
 
It's funny how rarely this comment is taken introspectively.

Do what now? I was simply drawing attention to the fact that all of this discussion, and even the existence of such a discussion, originates in the human brain. Inside the skull. Between one ear and another. Your beliefs and my way of thinking, they both come from the same place.
 
Actually, no.

Actually, yes. They really do fail to impress.

It's just an acknowledgement that people often use word according to differeing defintion and that, if there is to be any fruitful discussion, the people involved have to agree on a common set of definitions. In other words, simply sayinfg that a word is defined differently does not inherently invalidate the argument.

That's just an acknowledgement of your Humpty Dumpty defence - "I use words to mean anything I want" - followed by a failure to recognise that people (more dedicated than I) have been enthusiastically pushing the idea of definition on you since forever. The paragraph of yours I've just quoted makes no sense, typos aside. You're not going to communicate between one skull and another without some agreed definitions, and a shared language is the minimum.

More to the point, the definitions that are most frequently rejected by those who disagree with me are perfectly valid deifinitions used in other fields with which those who reject them may not be familiar.

Why should we be familiar with other environments? We were here, you came here, presumably from a more familiar environment. You're not tasty enough to be a lure, so you're here or you're there, but we're not following you.
 
That's just an acknowledgement of your Humpty Dumpty defence - "I use words to mean anything I want" - followed by a failure to recognise that people (more dedicated than I) have been enthusiastically pushing the idea of definition on you since forever. The paragraph of yours I've just quoted makes no sense, typos aside. You're not going to communicate between one skull and another without some agreed definitions, and a shared language is the minimum.

So word don't have multiple meanings?

Could you explain to me what exactly the problem is with describing evolution by natural selection as "random" in the technical sense when such a description does not invalidate the overwhelming empirical evidence that has been collected ove the past 150 years and has additionally been used by many scientists (including many of the founders of the Modern Synthesis)over the last 85 years?
 
But the ptroblem seems to be that those who prefer to call evolution by natural selection "non-random" don't see that calling evolution by natural slection "random" doesn't imply the "747 in the junkyard" comparison, but they seem to have about the same understadning of probability theory (especially the laws of large numbers and limi theorems) as creationists do.
So, now you have helped educate us that not all folks who call evolution "random", are referring to the "747 analogy".

We've all helped make it abundantly clear that there are other definitions of the word "random" that don't mean that.

Very well. Move along. Nothing more to see here., etc.
 
So word don't have multiple meanings?

They can, which is why we should concentrate on the sentence as the unambiguous unit of communication.

Could you explain to me what exactly the problem is with describing evolution by natural selection as "random" in the technical sense when such a description does not invalidate the overwhelming empirical evidence that has been collected ove the past 150 years and has additionally been used by many scientists (including many of the founders of the Modern Synthesis)over the last 85 years?

"In the technical sense" really doesn't hack it when it comes to disambiguation. Evolution isn't random, which is why it was spotted in the evidence before a convincing mechanism was proposed (Natural Selection) with good evidence for it presented.

Evolution is no more random than a game of Bridge is random, despite the cards being repeatedly shuffled.
 
"In the technical sense" really doesn't hack it when it comes to disambiguation. Evolution isn't random, which is why it was spotted in the evidence before a convincing mechanism was proposed (Natural Selection) with good evidence for it presented.

Evolution is no more random than a game of Bridge is random, despite the cards being repeatedly shuffled.

Do you actually have any evidence for this statement beside "the results are orderly"?

Systems with rules are not necessarily non-random. Random variables are themselves rules, yet they are also quintessentially random.
 

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