[Ed]Chris Cordero - Testing Protocols

[Pup]

From the protocol thread here http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3176028#post3176028

Instead of two clocks, we'll have a signaling system (our 2 way radios)

There will be a JREF volunteer on both ends. When Cordero says he's ready, the JREF volunteer with him will signal the JREF volunteer with the reader to begin reading after waiting a random number of seconds.

After 30 seconds, the JREF volunteer with Cordero will radio to stop receiving, and the die will roll again.

I'm sure this has been covered, but when the "begin reading" signal goes out, is it before Cordero has been shown the card, or is it certain that the radio microphone can't pick up any ambient sounds from the room and/or broadcast any ambient sounds to the reader?

I know that there's a stipulation of "No foot-tapping, knocking, or other forms of noise that can be used as communication," but if something like a deep breath or tiny sniff could get through without being noticed...

The fact that Cordero agreed to the protocol before the radios were added would indicate he's not planning to cheat by that method. But still...

 

[rjh01]

I guess it is to allow for unplanned things to happen. The other thing they need to watch out for is timing issues. If the time between two events can be rigged then that would say what the numbers are.

 

[Rishi]

The method suggested (using radios) poses an unnecessary risk that some stray sound made by Mr Coldero will be heard by the recipient.

What if instead of radios, a light bulb is used. The bulb is in the recipients room and the switch is in the telepath's room. The volunteer will turn on the switch for 30 seconds during the telepathic transmission and switch off during the die rolling process. This will eliminate the possibility of any additional information being sent in audible form.

 

[Cuddles]

The method suggested (using radios) poses an unnecessary risk that some stray sound made by Mr Coldero will be heard by the recipient.

What if instead of radios, a light bulb is used. The bulb is in the recipients room and the switch is in the telepath's room. The volunteer will turn on the switch for 30 seconds during the telepathic transmission and switch off during the die rolling process. This will eliminate the possibility of any additional information being sent in audible form.

But then if the bulb dies, the test is screwed. As mentioned in the OP, if you just make sure the radio signal is sent before Cordero sees the card, no cheating can take place since he won't know what he is about to send.

*Cordero says he's ready.
*Volunteer with Cordero radios volunteer with reciever.
*Cordero looks at card.
*10 seconds after radio signal, Cordeo sends card.
*30 seconds later, Cordero stops sending and volunteer radios again to confirm this.
*Rinse and repeat.

 

[Rishi]

But then if the bulb dies, the test is screwed.

A usual bulb has a life of the order of 100,000 hours. So the chance of it burning out during a 1-2 hour test is negligibly small. However, if that is a big concern, two bulbs can be used.

*Cordero says he's ready.
*Volunteer with Cordero radios volunteer with reciever.
*Cordero looks at card.
*10 seconds after radio signal, Cordeo sends card.
*30 seconds later, Cordero stops sending and volunteer radios again to confirm this.
*Rinse and repeat.

The problem I have with this protocol is the part about throwing the die. As per the Powell protocol if the die comes up as a "1" then it is an invalid result and the die is rolled again. This takes time and may take more than 10 seconds. So there may be a period when there may be no transmission, but the volunteer is trying to recieve.

Now, if a light is used this problem goes away. The protocol becomes,

* Volunteer rolls die (re-rolls if the die comes up 1)
* The light switch is turned on.
* Simultaneously Coldero attempts to send
* 30 seconds later the light switch is turned off.
* Repeat.

 

[Cuddles]

The problem I have with this protocol is the part about throwing the die. As per the Powell protocol if the die comes up as a "1" then it is an invalid result and the die is rolled again. This takes time and may take more than 10 seconds. So there may be a period when there may be no transmission, but the volunteer is trying to recieve.

But there is no time limit for the die to be rolled.

*Die is rolled.
*Cordero says he's ready.
*Volunteer with Cordero radios volunteer with reciever.
*Cordero looks at card.
*10 seconds after radio signal, Cordeo sends card.
*30 seconds later, Cordero stops sending and volunteer radios again to confirm this.
*Rinse and repeat.

Your idea is essentially identical, but just replaces the radios with a light. There just doesn't seem to be any point.

 

[Rishi]

But there is no time limit for the die to be rolled.

*Die is rolled.
*Cordero says he's ready.
*Volunteer with Cordero radios volunteer with reciever.
*Cordero looks at card.
*10 seconds after radio signal, Cordeo sends card.
*30 seconds later, Cordero stops sending and volunteer radios again to confirm this.
*Rinse and repeat.

Your idea is essentially identical, but just replaces the radios with a light. There just doesn't seem to be any point.

Oh, here I have a much bigger problem. Once the die is rolled, Coldero knows the information he is supposed to send and can by some way send it via radio.

Or there is an additional complication of shielding the die from Coldero.

 

[LazyPint]

Oh, here I have a much bigger problem. Once the die is rolled, Coldero knows the information he is supposed to send and can by some way send it via radio.

Or there is an additional complication of shielding the die from Coldero.

But the volunteers would hear him try to cheat using the radio, regardless of the noise made.

 

[Cuddles]

Oh, here I have a much bigger problem. Once the die is rolled, Coldero knows the information he is supposed to send and can by some way send it via radio.

Or there is an additional complication of shielding the die from Coldero.

Ah, I see where I'm getting confused. I was assuming the die roll would indicate a randomised card to turn over, in which case the roll itself doesn't give him any information. With the protocol as given, where the number rolled tells exactly which card to transmit, you are entirely correct that that is a problem.

One way around this would simply be to have an extra volunteer present with Mr. Cordero. When he is ready, the extra person leaves the room, radios the reciever's supervisor and then re-enters the room. This way there is no possibility of Cordero communicating anything because he is not present when the radios are used.

However, now I think about it, the cards are completely irrelevant. If you have to roll a die to choose a card, you may as well just work with the die and ignore the cards altogether. Having both dice and cards just adds an extra level of complexity to it.

 

[Rishi]

Ah, I see where I'm getting confused. I was assuming the die roll would indicate a randomised card to turn over, in which case the roll itself doesn't give him any information. With the protocol as given, where the number rolled tells exactly which card to transmit, you are entirely correct that that is a problem.

One way around this would simply be to have an extra volunteer present with Mr. Cordero. When he is ready, the extra person leaves the room, radios the reciever's supervisor and then re-enters the room. This way there is no possibility of Cordero communicating anything because he is not present when the radios are used.

That would possibly work. However it is much more complex and involves more controls than a light switch arrangement. e.g. the rooms now need to be further apart so no sound travels during the period the doors are open, the volunteer with the radio should not be able to see the second room during the period he is out of the first room.

However, now I think about it, the cards are completely irrelevant. If you have to roll a die to choose a card, you may as well just work with the die and ignore the cards altogether. Having both dice and cards just adds an extra level of complexity to it.

I think that the cards were a requirement of Mr Powell, (presumably to help him concentrate) while the dice were a requirement of the JREF to add the randomisation. Both do add some complexity but do not require additional controls so I guess that is why they were kept in.

 

[Rishi]

But the volunteers would hear him try to cheat using the radio, regardless of the noise made.

There is a whole amount of effort made to insulate Mr Cordero and the subject from any visual and auditory clues. Hence the two separate rooms, the no foot tapping clause, the no talking clause etc. After going through all that effort it really does not make sense to now open an audio channel between the two. It does not make for a robust test.

So I provided an alternative. A light bulb does not transmit any data. It only has two positions ON or OFF. Also it is a clean and simple way of indicating the beginning and end of each telepathic transmission. It does not suffer from the timing issues that the original (Mr Powell's) test suffers from and overall seems to me to be the best alternative.

 

[Cuddles]

That would possibly work. However it is much more complex and involves more controls than a light switch arrangement. e.g. the rooms now need to be further apart so no sound travels during the period the doors are open, the volunteer with the radio should not be able to see the second room during the period he is out of the first room.

To be honest, I'm starting to think the light is probably the best idea.

I think that the cards were a requirement of Mr Powell, (presumably to help him concentrate) while the dice were a requirement of the JREF to add the randomisation. Both do add some complexity but do not require additional controls so I guess that is why they were kept in.

According to his original claim, all he wanted was a set of around ten symbols. Cards were one of the possibilities mentioned, but were by no means the only one. I'm not sure he cares what is transmitted at all.

 

[RemieV]

There is a whole amount of effort made to insulate Mr Cordero and the subject from any visual and auditory clues. Hence the two separate rooms, the no foot tapping clause, the no talking clause etc. After going through all that effort it really does not make sense to now open an audio channel between the two. It does not make for a robust test.

So I provided an alternative. A light bulb does not transmit any data. It only has two positions ON or OFF. Also it is a clean and simple way of indicating the beginning and end of each telepathic transmission. It does not suffer from the timing issues that the original (Mr Powell's) test suffers from and overall seems to me to be the best alternative.

Well, the two volunteers would be aware of any extra information that was being sent. Remember, there is a volunteer standing next to the sender and the receiver, and they are the ones actually operating the walkie talkies. If they are aware of additional messages being sent over the walkie talkie, why would they not halt the test and call "cheating"?

Additionally, since there is no foot tapping, talking, etc. how would the sender transmit information at all? Is he going to hijack the walkie talkie? Again, even if he did, the volunteer would be aware of it and call off the test.

However, it is possible to send sound via walkie talkie without actually speaking or allowing the line to open for anything else. Walkie talkies have a button (I don't remember the name of it, but I've just called the place I used to work and confirmed its existence and how it operates) that sounds a really annoying tone, and that is all. My co-worker used to torment all of us with it. We were security guards, and all had the same kind of walkie talkie. When he hit that button, all of us within range would jump about five feet straight into the air.

That could be the 'go' button.

 

[ben m]

However, it is possible to send sound via walkie talkie without actually speaking or allowing the line to open for anything else.

If you're using a cell phone or a push-to-talk cell phone, instead of an old-fashioned radio walkie talkie, there's an even easier solution: have the person on the receiver-end use the normal handset mode (i.e. the phone pressed up against his or her ear) or a headset or earbud speaker, rather than the speakerphone-like function that the whole room hears.

 

[Rishi]

Well, the two volunteers would be aware of any extra information that was being sent. Remember, there is a volunteer standing next to the sender and the receiver, and they are the ones actually operating the walkie talkies. If they are aware of additional messages being sent over the walkie talkie, why would they not halt the test and call "cheating"?

Additionally, since there is no foot tapping, talking, etc. how would the sender transmit information at all? Is he going to hijack the walkie talkie? Again, even if he did, the volunteer would be aware of it and call off the test.

Any JREF test should be made as simple as possible. So for example a test of spoon bending just will cover the spoon with charcoal and let the participant (Geller?) do his stuff. Here it is a test for telepathic communications. So why is there an additional audio channel involved. Especially when it is really not required.

However, it is possible to send sound via walkie talkie without actually speaking or allowing the line to open for anything else. Walkie talkies have a button (I don't remember the name of it, but I've just called the place I used to work and confirmed its existence and how it operates) that sounds a really annoying tone, and that is all. My co-worker used to torment all of us with it. We were security guards, and all had the same kind of walkie talkie. When he hit that button, all of us within range would jump about five feet straight into the air.

That could be the 'go' button.

This would possibly work. With the first buzzer as the start of the test, the second as the end and the third as the start of the next test and so on.

 

[Rishi]

If you're using a cell phone or a push-to-talk cell phone, instead of an old-fashioned radio walkie talkie, there's an even easier solution: have the person on the receiver-end use the normal handset mode (i.e. the phone pressed up against his or her ear) or a headset or earbud speaker, rather than the speakerphone-like function that the whole room hears.

This would also work, and would be a clean solution.

 

[Rishi]

To be honest, I'm starting to think the light is probably the best idea.

So we have a few ideas around.

1. A light arrangement
2. A buzzer
3. Using cellphones (but with headset at recipient end)

I believe no 1. and 3. are the best. With no 2. the start and stop signals are the same. For 10 iterations there is a possibility of being confused. Also, the signal is quite loud.

 

[RemieV]

This would possibly work. With the first buzzer as the start of the test, the second as the end and the third as the start of the next test and so on.

There is no need for a second buzzer. The wait time between start and end is thirty seconds.

The two-way radio alteration was given directly by Randi. This really is the final protocol, and there are not any planned future negotiations beyond testing time and location.

 

[Rishi]

There is no need for a second buzzer. The wait time between start and end is thirty seconds.

This solution would work.
Just to be certain the protocol looks like this.

On Cordero's Side
* The dice are rolled (re-rolled if 1)
* Card is selected according to dice and handed to Cordero
* Cordero signals ready
* Buzzer is pressed
* Cordero attempts transmission for 30 seconds
* Repeat

On Recipients Side
* Wait for buzzer
* Recipient attempts to receive the transmission
* 30 seconds later volunteer signals end transmission.
* Receipient writes down the number received (or best guess)
* Wait for next buzzer.

 

[petre]

However, it is possible to send sound via walkie talkie without actually speaking or allowing the line to open for anything else. Walkie talkies have a button (I don't remember the name of it, but I've just called the place I used to work and confirmed its existence and how it operates) that sounds a really annoying tone, and that is all. My co-worker used to torment all of us with it. We were security guards, and all had the same kind of walkie talkie. When he hit that button, all of us within range would jump about five feet straight into the air.

That could be the 'go' button.

I believe that would be the 'squelch' button, if I recall my dad's fire radio well enough.