Despite pleadings of 911 operator Texas man kills burglars exiting neighbor's house

[fuelair]

Wow. I wonder how the neighbor feels about two lives snuffed out for his easy-to-get-away-with stuff?

I'm generally OK with folks having shotguns for home protection, but this guy went way to far. Yet another reason I'm happy not to live in Texas (nope, this kind of thing would never happen in NC )

I get the feeling he was a bit trigger happy. He could have simply confronted the bad guys in the yard and they would have dropped the stuff, pooped their pants, and fled. If he had to shoot, a leg shot would completely incapacitate. Sure, its tough to think things through in a firefight... but thats why folks shouldn't get into firefights in the first place. All he needed to do was delay them another 30 seconds.. not forever.

Sorry, if he had shot to wound, the rectum breathers could have sued him later - and, if armed, shot him as he reloaded.
Also, I am right bored with people who feel it's ok for other people to get burglarised and worry about the bad guys. If you are concerned about the burglars, get rid of your security system and put up a sign (2' by 2' should be plenty big) letting potential burglars know they are welcome.

I also admire the assumption that the burglars got nothing valuable TO THE PERSON whose house was burglarized. I personally have a lot of stuff that really is not replaceable - and there are plenty of replacement burglars, if you get my drift.

Ol' meany me, I have no sympathy for burglars, car-jackers, home invaders, etc. But then, when I was growing up, pretty much nobody did.

 

[fuelair]

From the link above:

"Horn's attorney said it was self-defense.

"He told them to stop. They stopped and looked at him and became terrified. Then they jumped and he fired," attorney Tom Lambright said Friday."

Sounds like a good pair of doubles, he shot them out of the air.

Mr Horn told the burglars to stop. They jumped. While the article doesn't say in which direction, they then must have jumped AT him, for his lawyer to be claiming self defense. I which case not only did Mr Horn defend himself, the two burglars were felony stupid- contenders for a Darwin award.

Also from the link given above, the article headline reads

" ACTIVIST calls incident murder"

So the activist may be inflaming the evidence, for his own fame.


And an additional thought: After the death of the first burglar shot, the second one became a murderer, since he was involved in the commission of a crime in which someone had died. So at the least Mr Horn killed one murderer, and one burglar- who was also involved in crime in which someone was killed. Two murderers.

Well pointed out!!

 

[fuelair]

Oh, man, I'm very sorry to hear that. At least you did the right thing. I've had experiences like that, too, with the police and with passerby.

As a matter of fact, I once was mugged at knifepoint in broad daylight with three pals from school by a gang of thugs, in a very public place in a public park, with dozens of people around and no one called the police.

You know that look people give you when they see you in trouble? They're walking and talking but drop everything they are doing and stare. Only when you try to make eye contact with them or signal them, they exchange glances with each other and look determinedly straight ahead of them and start walking faster.

We were eventually rescued by the park security guards or employees or whoever they are- don't know whether they saw us and intervened or were alerted.

Someone pointed out to me that the passerby could have not intervened because they had no way of knowing a mugging of four innocent kids was going on and that for all they knew, it was two groups of kids having a fight. Like you said, it could have looked like there was no need to intervene. And it's true, the park security at first treated us like criminals, too, and actually wanted to hold us for questioning.

Here's a horrifying story very much like that, if you want to hear it.

My father works at an apartment building near Central Park and there was this tenant, I believe she was an elderly divorcee, who was always giving her neighbors and the building staff a really hard time, constantly making trouble for everyone. So no one seemed to really miss her when she apparently went on vacation again.

The building staff just noticed that things suddenly seemed to be unusually peaceful and quiet- in retrospect, they were pretty surprised she wouldn't have told them she was leaving but they didn't give it much thought.

About two weeks later, the next door neighbors noticed a bad smell coming from the apartment and the woman's cats meowing and scratching.

So the building staff called 911 three times to explain the situation and got nothing for over two hours. No car, no ambulance, nothing. I don't think they ever did come.

The building staff took it upon themselves to force the door open but naturally no one went in and the boss finally flagged down a police car off the street. Even so, he had to practically pull their teeth to get the police officers to come over. They didn't even seem to register that someone had died in the building- they were even joking about not going into the apartment because it smelled.

Unbelievable. How can you call to say you have found a dead body and get no response?!

At the risk of repeating myself (although the latter case did not, assumably, involve murder), that's why some of us go armed - with no qualms about correctly using those arms.

 

[JoeEllison]

At the risk of repeating myself (although the latter case did not, assumably, involve murder), that's why some of us go armed - with no qualms about correctly using those arms.

Here's a question for you...

Do you think the Texas law allows you to shoot shoplifters?

 

[fuelair]

Here's a question for you...

Do you think the Texas law allows you to shoot shoplifters?

Technically, no - if they only shoplift and do not resist arrest attempt. If you can cause them to do something really stupid -especially with witnesses - you could. Why? Do you own a store and are afraid they won't get away with your stuff they stole if I shot them (since you give much indication that people's stuff being stolen is unimportant.).

 

[casebro]

Here's a question for you...

Do you think the Texas law allows you to shoot shoplifters?

Ya know, this whole thing may be a giant leap backwards in a response the the fact that our criminal justice system does not work. What with criminal rights, endless delay, appeals up the wazoo, early releases, high recidivism, activist judges... perhaps laws like this are the legislation's way of circumventing the 'Legal System" and bringing back justice?

They used to hang horse thieves from the nearest tree- when they caught them. Not because horses where worth so much, but it was so easy to commit that crime that swift frontier justice was the only deterrent.

So shooting shoplifters might not be so far fetched.


But I also think we ought to have hangings at every sporting event. (Half time show?) Start with murderers. When we run out, then arsonists, rapists, drug dealers. Pretty soon NOBODY would so much as litter.

 

[Biff Starbuck]

Here's a question for you...

Do you think the Texas law allows you to shoot shoplifters?

If the shoplifting happens at night, yes. Shoplifting is theft. In Texas you can legally use deadly force to keep not only stop a theft in progress, but to keep someone from escaping with property if they are committing the crime at night. And yes, you can shoot them in the back. And you can shoot them without shouting a warning and giving away any advantage of surprise.

JoeEllison, here's a question for you:

If you go back to the links I posted earlier on in the thread, can you show me where it says it is illegal to shoot a thief at night?

Regardless of the fact I personally think shooting a guy stealing a six-pack of beer from the Quickie-Mart at night is unnecessary, I do not see where you can say it is against state law.

 

[Ladewig]

Ya know, this whole thing may be a giant leap backwards in a response the the fact that our criminal justice system does not work. What with criminal rights, endless delay, appeals up the wazoo, early releases, high recidivism, activist judges... perhaps laws like this are the legislation's way of circumventing the 'Legal System" and bringing back justice?

Now you have mentioned something that irks me. You list criminal rights as a problem with the current criminal justice system. There is nothing more valuable to the American criminal justice system than criminal rights: specifically, the criminal rights defined by the Constitution. The Founding Fathers thought criminal rights were so important that forty percent of the Bill of Rights (amendments 4, 5, 6, and 7) is devoted to protecting criminals.

They used to hang horse thieves from the nearest tree- when they caught them. Not because horses where worth so much, but it was so easy to commit that crime that swift frontier justice was the only deterrent.

Of course, we'll never know how many innocent people were hung by those dealing out frontier justice? I personally think any system of justice should be modified until there is a zero percent chance that an innocent person is executed.

 

[Tokenconservative]

No they don't. That is just your uninformed opinion. I am a "leftist" as you like to call it and I don't believe any of the BS you think I do.

And yet, your definition of "conservative" is: stoopid, pig-ig'nant, backwoods, racist, sexist, homo'phobic' warmongering chickenhawk hater.

Hmmm...hypocrisy, anyone?

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

Sorry, if he had shot to wound, the rectum breathers could have sued him later - and, if armed, shot him as he reloaded.
Also, I am right bored with people who feel it's ok for other people to get burglarised and worry about the bad guys. If you are concerned about the burglars, get rid of your security system and put up a sign (2' by 2' should be plenty big) letting potential burglars know they are welcome.

I also admire the assumption that the burglars got nothing valuable TO THE PERSON whose house was burglarized. I personally have a lot of stuff that really is not replaceable - and there are plenty of replacement burglars, if you get my drift.

Ol' meany me, I have no sympathy for burglars, car-jackers, home invaders, etc. But then, when I was growing up, pretty much nobody did.

LOL!

Yep...you never see libs posting signs in their yards saying "We are a gun-free home!"

I wonder why?

Tokie

 

[JoeEllison]

Technically, no - if they only shoplift and do not resist arrest attempt. If you can cause them to do something really stupid -especially with witnesses - you could. Why? Do you own a store and are afraid they won't get away with your stuff they stole if I shot them (since you give much indication that people's stuff being stolen is unimportant.).

If you "cause them to do something really stupid", you are guilty of murder.

I think that people's things being stolen IS important... we lost everything when I was a child to burglars, literally everything including pictures and toys and clothing were packed into a truck and taken... but not important enough that people need to go out of their way to play "cowboy" and shoot people in cold blood to protect it.

The idea that any and every theft should carry a death sentence from civilians is ridiculous, and seems to be an indication that something is seriously wrong with a culture that feels that way. If someone breaks into your house at night, by all means shoot first and ask questions later. If you're a neighbor who gets impatient waiting for the cops to show up, and decide to gun down a couple of burglars, that is a completely different story.

There are levels of severity to crimes, and the law has always taken that into account when punishing the guilty. Shoplifting a pack of gum is not the same as armed robbery, and armed robbery is not the same as murder. Someone should not feel sanctioned to shoot someone in all three cases.

 

[NoZed Avenger]

They used to hang horse thieves from the nearest tree- when they caught them. Not because horses where worth so much, but it was so easy to commit that crime that swift frontier justice was the only deterrent.

Well, horses were that important. They were the primary means of transportation and for making a living. In remote parts, stranding someone without a horse could easily mean hardship or death.

And of course, that was vigilante behavior that was essentially tolerated because the expansion of people was faster than the law could follow.

We'll have to see what they can present at trial, but this killing does not appear justified from the initial information.

 

[fuelair]

If you "cause them to do something really stupid", you are guilty of murder.




There are levels of severity to crimes, and the law has always taken that into account when punishing the guilty. Shoplifting a pack of gum is not the same as armed robbery, and armed robbery is not the same as murder. Someone should not feel sanctioned to shoot someone in all three cases.

Only if witnesses recognize you did that - it's a skill.
I used to - before Florida law changed - train people how to maneuver into a corner so the perp would be blocking your way to escape.

I am sure that offends you/bothers you. I might feel bad about it myself if the law actually worked, the police always responded fast, criminals did not carry weapons, etc. Not our current world and I don't plan to be the one who dies. (Not an NRA fan but: "Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6."

Re: your last para - you are right if the shoplifter is not armed. The other two are fair game since the armed robber could kill.

 

[JoeEllison]

Only if witnesses recognize you did that - it's a skill.
I used to - before Florida law changed - train people how to maneuver into a corner so the perp would be blocking your way to escape.

I am sure that offends you/bothers you. I might feel bad about it myself if the law actually worked, the police always responded fast, criminals did not carry weapons, etc. Not our current world and I don't plan to be the one who dies. (Not an NRA fan but: "Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6."

Re: your last para - you are right if the shoplifter is not armed. The other two are fair game since the armed robber could kill.

Wow, you've trained people to commit premeditated murder. You must be so proud. At least when I did it, I was working for the government.

 

[fuelair]

Wow, you've trained people to commit premeditated murder. You must be so proud. At least when I did it, I was working for the government.

At one point, some years back, so was I. And, yes I am. There are good people and bad. It is unfortunate, but it is not functionally arguable.

Added/Edit: Friendly reminder - remember that for many years the police advised pulling the corpse fully into the house/apartment to make it crystal death was caused afte breech of structure. The good guys need to help each other.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

While I personally approve of what he did, my state's self-protection law (brought about after too many people in this state were prosecuted by zealous, leftist prosecutors for protecting their lives and property) allows you to shoot to kill ANYONE on your property not invited.

Even JWs? Man, I need to move out of Texas and to your state.

So the activist may be inflaming the evidence, for his own fame.

Have any of you heard the tape of the call? From what I've read on here the reference is to the transcript. I heard it several times on crazy John Gibson's radio show and it's clear that Mr. Horn had a hard on to shoot some bad guys and was going to do it no matter what the 911 dispatcher said. The sounds of the shots is also telling - two quick shots, a clear sound of a reload (pump) and another shot - like he was finishing one of them off.

If I were Mr. Horn I'd be distraught to, not because I'd finally got to live out my fantasy of killing some human trash, but becuase I was worried about going to jail or prison.

 

[Biff Starbuck]

Added/Edit: Friendly reminder - remember that for many years the police advised pulling the corpse fully into the house/apartment to make it crystal death was caused after breech of structure. The good guys need to help each other.

I have heard this "drag them into the house" expression many times, but only as anecdotal evidence. I have never seen a documented example of where law enforcement told someone to pull a body inside the house. Have you seen a documented example of this? Everything I have been told was specifically counter to this old canard, and that moving the body will only make the homeowner look guilty of a crime.

In most cases, it would only make the shooting look more like a murder than self defense, and the homeowner could be charged with tampering with evidence. A police officer sympathetic to a citizen using self defense can always write the report to reflect the fact the citizen was defending his life with the deadly force. But crime scene photos with smeared blood trails from a dragged body are much harder to explain in a positive light.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

But crime scene photos with smeared blood trails from a dragged body are much harder to explain in a positive light.

Exactly, haven't the people who are repeating that urban legend been watching CSI for the last 7 years?

 

[Biff Starbuck]

While I personally approve of what he did, my state's self-protection law (brought about after too many people in this state were prosecuted by zealous, leftist prosecutors for protecting their lives and property) allows you to shoot to kill ANYONE on your property not invited.

Even JWs? Man, I need to move out of Texas and to your state.

Tokie,

Could you please tell us which state you are referring to? Or link to the relevant law? As UnrepentantSinner's question points out, you probably cannot legally shoot someone who is walking up to your front door, even if they are Jehovah's Witnesses. I would guess the law allows the use of deadly force to stop TRESPASSERS, not "anyone" who was not invited.

There is more to trespassing than just not having been invited. For example, if you have a path from the sidewalk to your front door, a doorbell, and no fence or signs telling people not to come onto your property, someone walking to your front door to ring the bell would not be trespassing, even though they did not call ahead to ask your permission. That path to your front door is generally not considered curtilage, and you have a lower expectation of privacy there than somewhere else in your front yard. However, if someone is standing close to the house, well away from the path, for example peeking in a window, then they would probably be trespassing. Or, if there was no fence but the person walked around to the back of the house in an area where the homeowner would reasonably expect to not have unexpected visitors.

I would be surprised if any state law in the US allows you to legally kill someone unmenacingly walking up to your front door if the property is laid out as most single-family suburban homes in the US are. And no, you cannot count the JW pamphlets as weapons

 

[brodski]

Sorry,

I forgot to post the most important section.

Thanks.