The JREF is not an atheist organization

[hammegk]

What part of "I choose not to do so." don't you understand?

 

[CFLarsen]

What part of "I choose not to do so." don't you understand?

That is not good enough. You can't make claims like that and "choose not to" name names.

Who at JREF is a theist?

Who at JREF is a Buddhist?

Who at JREF is a Wiccan?

Yes, names.

Unless you withdraw your claims?

 

[hammegk]

I choose not to do that either.

BTW, how are you doing with the answer to:

"Conversely, should my statements be false, what is JREF if not an atheist organization?"

 

[CFLarsen]

I choose not to do that either.

BTW, how are you doing with the answer to:

"Conversely, should my statements be false, what is JREF if not an atheist organization?"

It is not up to others to prove your claims wrong.

It is up to you to prove your claims right.

Do you withdraw your claims, yes or no?

 

[hammegk]

No.

 

[Thomas]

I was raised to respect my fellow human beings even if I disagreed with them on things. Hopefully that's something I never "wisen" out of. Other than your sarcasm, I don't know what point your post served. Did you have one?

Very cute. So I see you were also raised to respect thugs, murderers and charletans. I'm sorry, I don't care what label they wear, homeopath, psychic or cardinal, they're going in the same pond.

Who exactly appointed you arbitor of what, or more importantly, who constituted modern or organized skepticism?

We just established that three out of three skeptic orgs didn't declare themselves atheist orgs (two major American and a Danish one), I didn't bother to look any further. And I guess that those who constitutes "modern or organized skepticism" must be the skeptic organizations, whether we like that or not.

Why would it officially refute organized religion? It doesn't refute Britney Spears either. Both are simply outside the boundaries of JREF.

Both religion and the rest of the woos make paranormal claims, Britney Spears doesn't to my knowledge, but if she does, then she's going in the pond as well. And as I said earlier, then Randi often attacks religion in SWIFT, so I guess it isn't "outside the boundries of JREF" now is it?

What is it you want to "debunk"? We can "debunk" it inasmuch as we can point to the various false beliefs of yore. In the case of Young Earth Creationists using it to justify their beliefs, we also do that, by countering Creationism.

Miracles, superbeings, tonnes of unsubstantiated but profitable claims. Why do you want to pretend that say, catholicism is different from any UFO cult in terms of paranormal claims? The only difference is that the RCC is huge compared to any UFO cult you can dig up.

'burbian....

Yes, it was a riot, parts of my right hand is still asleep.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

Very cute. So I see you were also raised to respect thugs, murderers and charletans. I'm sorry, I don't care what label they wear, homeopath, psychic or cardinal, they're going in the same pond.

Straw man. A religious believer is not the same as a murderer, charlatan or fraud selling homeopathic remedies or claiming to be psychic. And I do respect my fellow human being if they have been taken in by a fraud. I only change my opinion of them when I see they are the one's perpetrating it.

We just established that three out of three skeptic orgs didn't declare themselves atheist orgs (two major American and a Danish one), I didn't bother to look any further. And I guess that those who constitutes "modern or organized skepticism" must be the skeptic organizations, whether we like that or not.

Since I'm interested in promoting skepticism and not atheism, I like it a lot since I realize that the vast majority of thinking religious people - and yes, despite the straw man characterizations, there are a lot of them - that we could get involved in organized skepticism might not if skeptic organizations made official declarations ordaining atheist orthodoxy.

Unrepentant Sinner:
I didn't miss the point. I merely raised another, intricately related one, after seeing what I thought was an interesting question asked by Darat that no one else directly addressed. Sorry if that annoys you (to the point of accusations of mental instability, no less!) For Pete's sake! Have you no shame?

A persecution complex is a Weltanschauung, not a sign of mental instability. And I commented specifically on a statement you made about how atheists were being singled out as evil and "unclean" because of the sentiment of the OP. That is miles away from the point I was trying to make in the OP and in the first page of replies.

As long as 90+% of America remains religious, the JREF does a great disservice to itself if it accedes to the wishes of the more militant atheists in it's population and declares itself officially an atheist organization.

That was my original and only point.

 

[Thomas]

Straw man. A religious believer is not the same as a murderer, charlatan or fraud selling homeopathic remedies or claiming to be psychic. And I do respect my fellow human being if they have been taken in by a fraud. I only change my opinion of them when I see they are the one's perpetrating it.

Then you should've specified shouldn't you? Or is a cardinal not your "fellow human being"? There's no straw man here, nice try, tho.

Since I'm interested in promoting skepticism and not atheism, I like it a lot since I realize that the vast majority of thinking religious people - and yes, despite the straw man characterizations, there are a lot of them - that we could get involved in organized skepticism might not if skeptic organizations made official declarations ordaining atheist orthodoxy.

Fallacy of extreme opposite: "So you don't like Bush? Then you must be a communist!!" ..There's nothing orthodox about countering paranormal claims, and it doesn't matter if the one making the claim wears an inquisitors hat or a tinfoil hat. Get it?

 

[CFLarsen]

No.

Making unsubstantiated claims which you refuse to withdraw is not a good way to start here.

Both religion and the rest of the woos make paranormal claims

What paranormal claims does the Danish Protestant church make?

Britney Spears doesn't to my knowledge, but if she does, then she's going in the pond as well.

"I make great music" is a paranormal claim.......

And as I said earlier, then Randi often attacks religion in SWIFT, so I guess it isn't "outside the boundries of JREF" now is it?

Randi comments on a lot of things other than the paranormal. Does that mean it is included?

Miracles, superbeings, tonnes of unsubstantiated but profitable claims. Why do you want to pretend that say, catholicism is different from any UFO cult in terms of paranormal claims? The only difference is that the RCC is huge compared to any UFO cult you can dig up.

I'm not pretending in any way that the testable part of Catholicism is above skeptical scrutiny. E.g., I rip our fellow Dane Christian Hvidt's many claims of miracles apart here.

He didn't like that.

Too bad.

Yes, it was a riot, parts of my right hand is still asleep.

Sounds like you had a great time.

Not that I would (want to) know anything about that, of course.

 

[Thomas]

What paranormal claims does the Danish Protestant church make?

Every single one that is made in the bible. Let's take it from the top then: "The world was created in six days by an invisible superbeing". Nooo, not paranormal at aaaaall

Randi comments on a lot of things other than the paranormal. Does that mean it is included?

It means inconsistence with the public image (we're not an atheist org, we just attack religion a lot). That's what it means.

I'm not pretending in any way that the testable part of Catholicism is above skeptical scrutiny. E.g., I rip our fellow Dane Christian Hvidt's many claims of miracles apart here.

He didn't like that.

Too bad.

Then stand your guard sir, attack paranormal claims despite who makes them. Be consistent. The real issue at hand here might be the very definition of "paranormal", I go by the dictionary definition, how about you?

Sounds like you had a great time.

Not that I would (want to) know anything about that, of course.

 

[CFLarsen]

Every single one that is made in the bible. Let's take it from the top then: "The world was created in six days by an invisible superbeing". Nooo, not paranormal at aaaaall

The DPC doesn't claim the Bible is factual - it is acknowledged to be allegorical, especially the Old Testament. The only thing paranormal, as far as I can remember, is the ressurrection of Christ, which is somewhat hard to test. We can, however, give natural explanations for that.

It means inconsistence with the public image (we're not an atheist org, we just attack religion a lot). That's what it means.

So what? JREF isn't a political organization either - does that mean that the idiocies of politicans are above criticism as well?

Note that Randi doesn't attack people's right to believe in what they want. He criticizes the bad impact it has on society.

Then stand your guard sir, attack paranormal claims despite who makes them. Be consistent. The real issue at hand here might be the very definition of "paranormal", I go by the dictionary definition, how about you?

I am being very consistent, when I also attack the religious paranormal claims.

 

[Thomas]

The DPC doesn't claim the Bible is factual - it is acknowledged to be allegorical, especially the Old Testament. The only thing paranormal, as far as I can remember, is the ressurrection of Christ, which is somewhat hard to test. We can, however, give natural explanations for that.

I'm not too sure what the Danish protestants claim and does not claim, so I'm just gonna take your word for that for now. I strongly doubt that they don't include their very paranormal superbeing; God, tho.

So what? JREF isn't a political organization either - does that mean that the idiocies of politicans are above criticism as well?

That analogy would be a much better fit if the JREF declared itself apolitical and then attacked a political wing or party in SWIFT.

Note that Randi doesn't attack people's right to believe in what they want. He criticizes the bad impact it has on society.

Again, it would be more consistent if JREF was declared an atheist org, given that religion is often attacked by Randi. So, yea.

I am being very consistent, when I also attack the religious paranormal claims.

Fair enough, then we agree on that part at least, we might differ on what claims are paranormal and not, tho. That must be another story for now, as I'm not home ATM.

 

[CFLarsen]

I'm not too sure what the Danish protestants claim and does not claim, so I'm just gonna take your word for that for now. I strongly doubt that they don't include their very paranormal superbeing; God, tho.

But if that God is not claimed to interfere with the physical world?

That analogy would be a much better fit if the JREF declared itself apolitical and then attacked a political wing or party in SWIFT.

Ask JREF if it is political. I'm fairly sure you will get a similar answer to the question of whether JREF is an atheist organization. "No, it isn't."

Ask JREF if it is neo-classicist. Or if it is anti-Britney Spears. Or whatever you fancy.

Then, what?

Again, it would be more consistent if JREF was declared an atheist org, given that religion is often attacked by Randi. So, yea.

How can JREF be an atheist organization?

Fair enough, then we agree on that part at least, we might differ on what claims are paranormal and not, tho. That must be another story for now, as I'm not home ATM.

Take your time.

 

[Ladewig]

How many people in this thread argued pro-Christianity? How many people took the opportunity to be as rude and demeaning as possible?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99113&page=4


This thread seals the deal that JREF IS an atheist organization.

There were posters in that thread that were not rude and demeaning. They dipassionately evaluated your evidence. Are you planning on responding to their posts?

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

Indeed, the JREF is not an athetist organization.

The JREF is also not the FBI, the CUNY nor the OHMSS.


I am not not a human being.

 

[Thomas]

But if that God is not claimed to interfere with the physical world?

So they pray for... nothing, in the DPC.. Do you have anything within reason to add?

Ask JREF if it is political. I'm fairly sure you will get a similar answer to the question of whether JREF is an atheist organization. "No, it isn't."

<CFL mode>
So you think there are life on Venus?

Ask JREF if it is neo-classicist. Or if it is anti-Britney Spears. Or whatever you fancy.

Is the sky often blue? Yes or no.

Then, what?

Well, it's soon christmas. Are you saying that you haven't bought any presents for the children yet?

How can JREF be an atheist organization?

So you don't like Brahms 4. symphony?

Take your time.

</CFL mode>
I don't think so, I think I shall be wasting my time on someone capable of reading what I write. Someone who doesn't argue for the sake of the argument alone. Someone who doesn't ask questions in east when the topic is west. You know, less fishing, more getting in tune with the programme. Take care now, bye-bye then

 

[dglas]

Chillzero mentioned we should stop bickering over "non-topic" stuff. I am informed that included the discussion between Claus and I (although, personally, I disagree about it being off-topic). Therefore....

 

[kmortis]

That is not good enough. You can't make claims like that and "choose not to" name names.

Who at JREF is a theist?

Who at JREF is a Buddhist?

Who at JREF is a Wiccan?

Yes, names.

Unless you withdraw your claims?

Isn't Hal part of the JREF?

 

[CFLarsen]

Isn't Hal part of the JREF?

Yes. And?

 

[hammegk]

Claus, which groups of participants constitute "The JREF"?