Should Skeptics, by definition, be Atheists?

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You have not been making arguments in this thread about how some of the poster in this thread are in no position to decide what a skeptic is or is not, and how excluding groups from the definition is bad.

It's not an argument. It is a fact that the Discovery people claim that the Christian god is responsible for species. It is a fact that they are not skeptics.

You asked a question. You got an answer. Go with that.

Cleon seems to think letting some theistic beliefs in while keeping others that make an equal number of testable predictions out is perfectly acceptable. And it making arguments about people not having the authority to decide who is and who is not a skeptic.

He doesn't claim evidence of those beliefs.

If he did, his ass would be grass and I'd be a lawn mower on high octane gas.
 
No, and that is the point. There are many beliefs that you can not prove or disprove, many of them very very similar to woo woo beliefs that being worded slightly differently can be disproven. I do not see why some beliefs in this class exclude you from being a skeptic while others do not. And it seems everyone has beliefs in this class.

As untestable claims are not subject to skeptical inquiry, I think they're irrelevant to the question of whether someone can have religious beliefs and be a skeptic. The logical conumdrum in the question, "can someone have religious beliefs and be a skeptic" follows from the nature of specific religious claims.
 
I am aware of the distinction. Are you?

I'm perfectly aware, which is why I don't feel a need to 'disprove' religion with science. I simply don't hold religious faith.

I stand by that statement. The effects of prayer are indistinguishable from chance. Prayer is claimed to be able to cause miraculous events. Thus far, they are not in evidence.

You are standing behind a false statement of absolute. The effects of prayer are indistinguishable from chance in a double-blind, but are equal to that of suggestion or subject-expectance when the participants are aware of the prayer. The logical conclusion is not an absolute lack of efficacy, it is a mis-attribution of source for the measurable efficacy.
 
I'm perfectly aware, which is why I don't feel a need to 'disprove' religion with science. I simply don't hold religious faith.



You are standing behind a false statement of absolute. The effects of prayer are indistinguishable from chance in a double-blind, but are equal to that of suggestion or subject-expectance when the participants are aware of the prayer. The logical conclusion is not an absolute lack of efficacy, it is a mis-attribution of source for the measurable efficacy.

No. The conclusion is that prayer is not effective at doing what prayer is claimed to do, including move mountains. No religion claims "pray, because it has a placebo effect."
 
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Right, and the results are never binary. I already pointed out to you the use of placebo in medical practice, which you've summarily ignored.


I certainly hope it is not a medical practice!

It is used in some doubleblind studies but many things are conflated as the placebo effect.
 
It's not an argument. It is a fact that the Discovery people claim that the Christian god is responsible for species. It is a fact that they are not skeptics.

No, as it requires a definition of skeptic to be defined in such a way.
You asked a question. You got an answer. Go with that.



He doesn't claim evidence of those beliefs.

If he did, his ass would be grass and I'd be a lawn mower on high octane gas.

He hasn't made any attempt to define skeptic at all, only tell others that they can't define it so that theists are excluded.
 
As untestable claims are not subject to skeptical inquiry, I think they're irrelevant to the question of whether someone can have religious beliefs and be a skeptic. The logical conumdrum in the question, "can someone have religious beliefs and be a skeptic" follows from the nature of specific religious claims.

But the general claim is that as long as those beliefs are untestable they do not exclude people from being skeptics. There we see the relevance of untestable claims.
 
But the general claim is that as long as those beliefs are untestable they do not exclude people from being skeptics. There we see the relevance of untestable claims.

Why would religious untestable claims get a pass? If someone believes that we're all the dreams of alien joos who control reality with undetectable mind control beams, is that person a skeptic? You can't ever prove such a theory, because those evil alien joos control everything. It's as immune to crticial inquiry as deism.
 
I think we are missing a basic truth here --

Skepticism is a method for evaluating a particular and specific claim. It cannot be used to directly confirm or dismiss a belief system as a whole. Sure, there are certain belief systems which tend to naturally arise from skepticism, but that is not the same thing as suggesting that good skepticism can only lead to a particular conclusion. Once you start making the claim that "good skeptic" = "a certain type of belief" you are turning skepticism from a method into a dogma.

To put it another way, such attitudes tend to encourage people to just jump to certain conclusions rather than reevaluating the evidence after each instance. A good skeptic should always be open to having his conclusions changed with new evidence, but when you start jumping to a particular assumption (as in "skeptic by definition equal atheist") you shortcircuit that process.

The simple fact is that two people can look at the same evidence and still come to different conclusions. Skepticism has to acknowledge that by limiting its criticism to specific claims and evidence. It's skepticism to say "As far as the evidence I've seen goes prayer does not directly aid in the healing process", but you start offering personal belief once you get to "Therefore, there is no god."

For instance, there are a number of skeptics (here and elsewhere) that honestly belief that the clear and obvious deduction based on "evidence" is that Libertarianism is the only logical political choice. I and others, however, would strongly dispute that. Does that mean we aren't good skeptics or is it that believers in Libertarianism aren't "real" skeptics? See how once you start confusing method with conclusion you turn the whole movement into an ideological crusade of one sort or another?

There is also another consideration -- we have access to different sources of evidence, some that aren't available to others.

Let's say that I am out walking in the woods one day when an alien mothership comes down out of the sky and some strange creature comes out to say "hi." Turns out he (it) is a friendly fellow just looking for directions to Tau Ceti. I point out which way to go, he thanks me, and then takes off. Amazed at my experience I rush to tell my next door (human) neighbor.

But, guess what, my neighbor doesn't believe me. After all, I didn't bring my camera and the alien didn't leave me his intergalatic business card. I have no independent evidence to back up my claim. Thus, from a skeptical viewpoint my experience is pretty much worthless -- it can't be used to establish the general conclusion that aliens exist and visit Earth. Yet, for me I have all the evidence required -- I was there and saw the alien first hand.

This sort of effect is quite common when it comes to religion/spirituality. People often have intensely meaningful, but also completely personal religious experiences. In fact, such things might ultimately represent that individual's reason for believing. But, obviously, such things can't be shared in the way that scientific facts can be -- that is, it is a subjective (as in individual) not objective (open to anyone) experience. We can all read a book on physics, but only Bob experiences his own unique religious revelation.

Now, that doesn't mean that such personal experience trumps all objective knowledge, only that it too is in the mix. We can't automatically dismiss such a thing just because we personally haven't had such an experience. By claiming that skepticism always leads to certain belief systems that is exactly what you are doing. It smacks of arrogance and others are going to pick up on it.

That's why I say skepticism is only a method for investigating claims, not a set of dogmas that any "good" skeptic should believe in.
 
Why would religious untestable claims get a pass? If someone believes that we're all the dreams of alien joos who control reality with undetectable mind control beams, is that person a skeptic? You can't ever prove such a theory, because those evil alien joos control everything. It's as immune to crticial inquiry as deism.

If they accept that it is an untestable claim, why should it be treated any differently than deism?
 
I think we are missing a basic truth here --

Skepticism is a method for evaluating a particular and specific claim. It cannot be used to directly confirm or dismiss a belief system as a whole. Sure, there are certain belief systems which tend to naturally arise from skepticism, but that is not the same thing as suggesting that good skepticism can only lead to a particular conclusion. Once you start making the claim that "good skeptic" = "a certain type of belief" you are turning skepticism from a method into a dogma.

I can't speak for the OP, but I believe the assertion is that skeptical inquiry logically necessarily implies atheism if applied to religious claims, rather than proposing it as a type of dogma.
 
How are you defining Atheism exactly? Pure lack of a belief or an active belief there are no gods?
 
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By claiming that skepticism always leads to certain belief systems that is exactly what you are doing. It smacks of arrogance and others are going to pick up on it.

I wouldn't say that atheism is a belief system.
 
No. The conclusion is that prayer is not effective at doing what prayer is claimed to do, including move mountains. No religion claims "pray, because it has a placebo effect."

Right, but like I said religion doesn't play the part of science, and I already pointed out that I would agree that it is a case of mistaken attribution. Just because there is no proof of any divine power does not mean there is zero efficacy.

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I certainly hope it is not a medical practice!

It's not used as a standard practice for any specific condition, if that's what you mean. However, it is used to aid in gaining receptiveness to other treatments or to ease anxiety in people who are not diagnosed with a clinical anxiety condition.

It is used in some doubleblind studies but many things are conflated as the placebo effect.

Using this as an argument is getting tiresome in its constant appeal to ignorance.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/12/031231084101.htm
http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?type=article&article_id=218392716
http://skepdic.com/placebo.html
http://www.csicop.org/si/9701/placebo.html
http://www.nytimes.com/library/magazine/home/20000109mag-talbot7.html
http://www.fda.gov/Fdac/features/2000/100_heal.html
http://student.bmj.com/issues/02/02/education/12.php

For a supposed 'skeptics' you sure are ignoring a lot of information out there written for skeptics by skeptics on the subject. There are ethical limitations to the use of placebo, first to protect the patient and second to prevent quackery or snake oil. However, you are seriously uninformed if you think double-blind testing is the only valid use for placebo.

No, as it requires a definition of skeptic to be defined in such a way.

He hasn't made any attempt to define skeptic at all, only tell others that they can't define it so that theists are excluded.

This one should be suitable: http://skepdic.com/skepticism.html
 
Right, but like I said religion doesn't play the part of science, and I already pointed out that I would agree that it is a case of mistaken attribution. Just because there is no proof of any divine power does not mean there is zero efficacy.

No. Prayer has none of the effects is claimed to have.

Tell me, if religion "doesn't play the part of science," what does it "play the part of?" Moral guide? Morality isn't derived from religion.
 
No. Prayer has none of the effects is claimed to have.

Wrong again. It displays no evidence of the causes it claims to have.

Tell me, if religion "doesn't play the part of science," what does it "play the part of?" Moral guide? Morality isn't derived from religion.

So, are you now admitting you are arguing that religion plays the role of science?
 
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