perhaps not everything is lost for astrology

[steenkh]

How do astrologers determine the kind of influence that new planets have on their charts? In their copious research. have they pin-pointed influences that they were missing planets for? Perhaps they can determine exactly how many planets we are still missing.

And then we could also finally get the proper definition of a planet?

 

[nathan]

The point is that Ceres, Titan and so on should all be included in astrological charts according to Aquila's own definition.

Ah I see what you mean. I thought Aquila's definition was 'big round object in orbit around the Sun or Earth'. Thus Titan's excluded by being a non-Earthly moon. Thinking astrologically, I guess it never gets far enough away from Saturn to go out of conjunction. Thus everyone has a Saturn-Titan conjunction on their charts and any Titan-Foo aspect is indistinguishable from the Saturn-Foo aspect a horoscope would have. May as well treat it as a single Saturnian system. Of course, astrologers appear to claim Titan has no effect, not that Titan's effect is indistinguishable from Saturn's.

Ceres and other dwarf planets are unaccounted for no explicable reason though.

 

[Aquila]

Ah I see what you mean. I thought Aquila's definition was 'big round object in orbit around the Sun or Earth'. Thus Titan's excluded by being a non-Earthly moon. Thinking astrologically, I guess it never gets far enough away from Saturn to go out of conjunction. Thus everyone has a Saturn-Titan conjunction on their charts and any Titan-Foo aspect is indistinguishable from the Saturn-Foo aspect a horoscope would have. May as well treat it as a single Saturnian system. Of course, astrologers appear to claim Titan has no effect, not that Titan's effect is indistinguishable from Saturn's.

Ceres and other dwarf planets are unaccounted for no explicable reason though.

Thank you for answering this Nathan. I am finding it difficult to get to a computer at work but had just logged on to post a similar reply about satellites of planets (honest!).

Here is an article about Ceres:

http://www.stariq.com/Main/Articles/P0003880.HTM

 

[Hokulele]

Aquila, as entertaining as it may be to read your ever-changing definitions of what a planet is, these posts are demonstrating the problem with your way of thinking I mentioned several pages ago. You latch onto a concept that feels right to you, and promptly stop thinking or researching. For example, the Sun as the King of the solar system, asteroids are not large and round, and in another thread, diesel fumes causing your mother's heart problems. This lack of critical thinking is exactly why the JREF exists, and why many of us post to this forum. Rather than simply looking for individual correlations that suit your mindset, take some time to learn about history, science, and how to interpret data in a skeptical sense.

As an example, take the phrase you are so fond of, "As above, so below". Do you know the origin of that phrase (hint, it goes back to alchemy)? What is its original meaning? What does it mean to you, and why is your meaning different from the original? Again, to me it looks like you simply latched onto a concept you liked, and promptly turned off your brain. Sorry to be so blunt, but it really bothers me when people do that.

 

[Aquila]

Aquila, as entertaining as it may be to read your ever-changing definitions of what a planet is, these posts are demonstrating the problem with your way of thinking I mentioned several pages ago. You latch onto a concept that feels right to you, and promptly stop thinking or researching. For example, the Sun as the King of the solar system, asteroids are not large and round, and in another thread, diesel fumes causing your mother's heart problems. This lack of critical thinking is exactly why the JREF exists, and why many of us post to this forum. Rather than simply looking for individual correlations that suit your mindset, take some time to learn about history, science, and how to interpret data in a skeptical sense.

Hokulele - It is true that the terminology used by astrologers is confusing. The original meaning of planet is 'wanderer', and, I think that since the Sun and Moon were seen to wonder along the ecliptic every day and night, they were called planets by astrologers. Although Ceres is now termed a dwarf planet it has been known as an asteoid for many years.

As for questioning whether my mother's heart disease was linked to diesel fumes, I have heard several medical professionals speculate the same thing.

As an example, take the phrase you are so fond of, "As above, so below". Do you know the origin of that phrase (hint, it goes back to alchemy)? What is its original meaning? What does it mean to you, and why is your meaning different from the original? Again, to me it looks like you simply latched onto a concept you liked, and promptly turned off your brain. Sorry to be so blunt, but it really bothers me when people do that.

Maybe you could tell me since you know about alchemy.

 

[Hokulele]

Hokulele - It is true that the terminology used by astrologers is confusing. The original meaning of planet is 'wanderer', and, I think that since the Sun and Moon were seen to wonder along the ecliptic every day and night, they were called planets by astrologers. Although Ceres is now termed a dwarf planet it has been known as an asteoid for many years.

Do you realize that you just proved the point I was making in my post?

As for questioning whether my mother's heart disease was linked to diesel fumes, I have heard several medical professionals speculate the same thing.

And again!

Maybe you could tell me since you know about alchemy.

No. You see, what I am trying to get across to you is that you have to learn how to do research, and how to evaluate what you learn. If I tell you the answers to those questions, you will either be relying on another self-proclaimed authority (I could be wrong after all), or you wouldn't believe me. The research on this phrase isn't too difficult, it had a definite source. So please, look it up and answer the following questions.

- What do you currently think this phrase means?
- What is the source of this phrase?
- What did it mean in its original context?
- Why is your interpretation of this phrase different from the original?

 

[Aquila]

Hokulele - It is true that the terminology used by astrologers is confusing. The original meaning of planet is 'wanderer', and, I think that since the Sun and Moon were seen to wonder along the ecliptic every day and night, they were called planets by astrologers. Although Ceres is now termed a dwarf planet it has been known as an asteoid for many years.

Do you realize that you just proved the point I was making in my post?

Did I leave out Copernicus again? I'm a bit confused about what point you are making, but I admit that I should have said that this was all before we found out that we go round the Sun. The ancient name just stuck and as mentioned before, it is sloppy terminology.

As for questioning whether my mother's heart disease was linked to diesel fumes, I have heard several medical professionals speculate the same thing.
And again!

Here is my original post from the Diesel Buses thread

This is an article on the health effects of diesel exhaust:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_Particulate_Matter

I sometimes wonder if my mum's heart disease is linked to the air she is forced to breathe while shopping. She doesn't smoke, and eats very healthily.

Did anyone read the wikipedia article that I linked to? I don't see what is wrong in saying "I sometimes wonder if ....." when I quite clearly backed up my wondering with another source. Here is the quote from wikipedia: (bolding mine)

The main particulate fraction of diesel exhaust consists of small particles. Because of their small size, inhaled particles may easily penetrate deep into the lungs. The rough surfaces of these particles makes it easy for them to bind with other toxins in the environment, thus increasing the hazards of particle inhalation. Exposures have been linked with acute short-term symptoms such as headache, dizziness, light-headedness, nausea, coughing, difficult or labored breathing, tightness of chest, and irritation of the eyes and nose and throat. Long-term exposures can lead to chronic, more serious health problems such as cardiovascular disease, cardiopulmonary disease, and lung cancer.

Admittedly, like many wikipedia artickles, this quote is not backed up by any references citing scientific research, but I did not say "diesel fumes have been scientifically linked to heart disease or cardiovascular disease", I merely said that I wonder if they are linked. What is your beef?

I was hoping that someone on the JREF forum who has done research into this matter, or knows of any research would kindly post it, so that a possible link can either be confirmed or refuted. So far no one has posted, and I have been unable to find any such research by myself, although I have found some articles linking cardiovascular disease to cigarrette smoking. Until I hear of any scientific research about diesel, I shall continue to wonder if there is a link.

Maybe you could tell me since you know about alchemy.

No. You see, what I am trying to get across to you is that you have to learn how to do research, and how to evaluate what you learn. If I tell you the answers to those questions, you will either be relying on another self-proclaimed authority (I could be wrong after all), or you wouldn't believe me. The research on this phrase isn't too difficult, it had a definite source. So please, look it up and answer the following questions.

I asked you to explain it because I wondered if you could do that without referencing back to a "self-proclaimed authority". I don't know if I can expain it without mentioning the Emerald Tablet of Hermes, supposedly written by one Hermes Trismegistus.

"The concept was first laid out in The Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trismegistus, in the words "That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above, corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracles of the One Thing
....This is however more often used in the sense of the microcosm and the macrocosm. The microcosm is oneself, and the macrocosm is the universe.

from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_Above_So_Below



- What do you currently think this phrase means?

I think that the phrase has been borrowed by astrologers to imply that events in the heavens have some sort of correlation with events on earth.

- What is the source of this phrase?

The Emerald Tablet.

- What did it mean in its original context?

I think it was trying to describe the way our minds work. It is about what some people call "magic".

- Why is your interpretation of this phrase different from the original?

It was because the outer planets in the sky supposedly correspond to the inner holy planets in our spiritual vehicles (sorry about the woo terminology). By manipulating the energy of these inner planets, with our self -conscious minds, we do alchemy or magic and produce a result that is beneficial to us, and hopefully everyone else. At least that's how I interpret spiritual alchemy.

 

[PixyMisa]

Here's the question, Aquila: If Uranus, Neptune and Pluto all have significant influences on astrological charts, why did no-one notice the problem before Uranus was discovered in 1781, Neptune in 1846, and Pluto in 1930?

If astrology can't detect three entire missing planets, how can it predict anything at all?

 

[Aquila]

Here's the question, Aquila: If Uranus, Neptune and Pluto all have significant influences on astrological charts, why did no-one notice the problem before Uranus was discovered in 1781, Neptune in 1846, and Pluto in 1930?

Please see post 387

If astrology can't detect three entire missing planets, how can it predict anything at all?

It can't.

 

[PixyMisa]

Please see post 387

I read that, but it didn't really address the point.

It can't.

But this does. Thank you.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Here's the question, Aquila: If Uranus, Neptune and Pluto all have significant influences on astrological charts, why did no-one notice the problem before Uranus was discovered in 1781, Neptune in 1846, and Pluto in 1930?

If astrology can't detect three entire missing planets, how can it predict anything at all?

Well the answer is obvious. Before the discovery of these three planets asstrology prediction was only 70, 80 and 90 percent accurate for an individual rather than the 100% it is today; unless they have weak karma or their birth time is not known to the picasecond.

Oh. And this is qualified by the fact that planets are oblate spheroids not spheres. Jupiter's polar diameter is 6.7% less than its equatorial, for example. This, combined with the Moon's zyzygy, means that an astrological forecast can never be more than 100% accurate +/- 100%.

 

[Hokulele]

I asked you to explain it because I wondered if you could do that without referencing back to a "self-proclaimed authority". I don't know if I can expain it without mentioning the Emerald Tablet of Hermes, supposedly written by one Hermes Trismegistus.

"The concept was first laid out in The Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trismegistus, in the words "That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above, corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracles of the One Thing
....This is however more often used in the sense of the microcosm and the macrocosm. The microcosm is oneself, and the macrocosm is the universe.

from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_Above_So_Below



- What do you currently think this phrase means?

I think that the phrase has been borrowed by astrologers to imply that events in the heavens have some sort of correlation with events on earth.

- What is the source of this phrase?

The Emerald Tablet.

- What did it mean in its original context?

I think it was trying to describe the way our minds work. It is about what some people call "magic".

- Why is your interpretation of this phrase different from the original?

It was because the outer planets in the sky supposedly correspond to the inner holy planets in our spiritual vehicles (sorry about the woo terminology). By manipulating the energy of these inner planets, with our self -conscious minds, we do alchemy or magic and produce a result that is beneficial to us, and hopefully everyone else. At least that's how I interpret spiritual alchemy.

OK, I will give you credit for answering, although I would suggest that you find sources outside of Wikipedia when you are looking for answers to questions. It doesn't have the greatest record for reliability. The best is to go to the source documents themselves, in this case, The Emerald Tablet as you identified correctly. There are many different interpretations of that text, and a few have suggested that it may be a forgery and not as ancient as some have claimed. The history is actually pretty fascinating.

However, as it applies to this discussion, The Emerald Tablet is a very short, very cryptic work that has been considered a founding document for astrology, alchemy, and European magic. One of the main reasons European scientists revered it so much is that 1) it was said to be rooted in Greek and Egyptian sources and 2) it tied in neatly with the concept of "natural philosophy". Natural Philosophy was the general term for science leading up to and during the Renaissance. Natural Philosophers wanted to know how the world worked, because they believed that everything on earth was designed and directed by God. By understanding the world, they would understand God, hence the term "as above, so below". Man was seen as the center of the universe, and everything had been created to serve man, including the plants, animals, and even the astronomical bodies such as the planets, sun, and moon (and even then they realized that the sun and moon weren't "planets" mainly due to the observations of occultations).

Basing their work on this assumption, every part of the human body was mapped to various elements (alchemy), plants (herbology/pharmacology), and astronomical bodies (astrology). These were necessary to carry out their version of medicine. Eventually, these studies branched out, and can be seen as the basis for various sciences still studied today. The mystical connection to God was dropped over time, as well as most of the other arcane nonsense.

Unfortunately, some people still promote this. None of it is true. There are no correlations between elements, plants, planets, and people. True, some plants and elements can be beneficial when used as medicines, but no scientist believes that they were created specifically for that purpose. Just as no scientist believes that the planets have any influence on people.

I know you really would like to believe that there is some higher purpose to life, the universe, and everything, but there isn't. Life is what we make of it, not what the stars dictate. However, that should not lessen the enjoyment of what we have. Since our time on this planet is short, and viewing the universe with reality is extremely powerful, it is a shame that so many people waste so much of it chasing foolishness such as astrology.

 

[arthwollipot]

Of course I can't prove any of that. The point is that Ceres, Titan and so on should all be included in astrological charts according to Aquila's own definition. It doesn't matter how it's supposed to work, the fact is that his/her explanations are internally inconsistent. There's no point trying to match stories with reality when the stories don't even make sense by themselves.

It is impossible to use reason to change opinions that were reached without it.

Don't know who said that. Can anyone provide an attribution?

 

[nathan]

Here is an article about Ceres:

http://www.stariq.com/Main/Articles/P0003880.HTM

so Ceres is astrologically significant then? What about Eris?

 

[nathan]

If astrology can't detect three entire missing planets, how can it predict anything at all?

It can't.

Um, from the Ceres web page you pointed us to:

Ceres also shows how loss of loved ones can bring deep feelings of grief and a sense of loss. This tends to happen when a major transit adversely affects the natal Ceres. When Ceres is activated, major life transitions often occur. In a woman's horoscope, for example, this may mean the birth of a child, the onset of the menstrual cycle, the beginning of menopause, or when the last child leaves home. In a patriarchal society, these changes didn't have much relevance, but the underlying awareness of birth, death and renewal is sacred knowledge, and is intrinsically connected to ecology and the environmental movement.

That's a (set of vague) predictions.

You appear to be implying that all statements about astrology making predictions are false. What does astrology do then? Please clarify.

 

[nathan]

Although Ceres is now termed a dwarf planet it has been known as an asteoid for many years.

And before that it was known as a planet, and before that it wasn't known. What's your point? That what is astrologically significant is subjective?

 

[Professor Yaffle]

It is impossible to use reason to change opinions that were reached without it.

Don't know who said that. Can anyone provide an attribution?

I had always thought it was George Bernard Shaw and I had heard it attributed to Oscar Wilde, but a quick google finds in favour of Jonathan Swift.

It is usually quoted as, "You cannot reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place", but I have also found, "You cannot reason people out of something to which reason hasn't brought them" - which for some reason sounds more authentic.

 

[sthomson]

You appear to be implying that all statements about astrology making predictions are false. What does astrology do then? Please clarify.

Aquila has already stated that astrology is a framework that she uses to interpret past events, rather than a tool to predict the future. It seems rather silly, IMO, to blame the past or other people's behavior on the planets and stars, when it's much more productive to look at the actual causes.

I guess none of us really understand why astrology is useful, if it can't predict anything (like science can). Can you please clarify, Aquila?

 

[nathan]

Aquila has already stated that astrology is a framework that she uses to interpret past events, rather than a tool to predict the future.

thanks. Don't pebbles on the beach have the same explanatory power? We could even call it calcology to make it sound scientifical!

 

[Aquila]

Firstly, thank you Hokulele for the treatise on natural philosophy. Personally, I still like to believe in a creator, and the language of astrology, and especially the kabalistic tree of life, is the best thing that I have to try to understand that concept, although I doubt that I will ever understand it completely.

Also, thanks to stomson for this:

Aquila has already stated that astrology is a framework that she uses to interpret past events, rather than a tool to predict the future. It seems rather silly, IMO, to blame the past or other people's behavior on the planets and stars, when it's much more productive to look at the actual causes.

You assume that I am blaming past events on the planets or stars, but as I tried to explain above, fate is not karma. What happened in the past, say as result of one person's action, was a combination of the karma accrued by that person from even further back action, and the action done by that person at that moment with their "free will". Every time we do something with our free-will, we change our previous karma and accrue new karma. So that ultimately, we cannot blame anyone for the past but ourselves.

I guess none of us really understand why astrology is useful, if it can't predict anything (like science can). Can you please clarify, Aquila?

Once we understand this concept of karma and free-will, we can hopefully see how life has a purpose - it is a test of a sort, or an obstacle course if you like, to see how well we can meet the blueprint of our birthchart, use the good stuff (talents, abundance, intelligence) and not waste it, and overcome the more difficult stuff through wise application of universal principles, which are themselves represented by astrology.