NOVA program: Judgement Day, Intelligent Design on Trial

From that first rebuttal:
We will be watching and we will be posting corrections to all of the mistakes and misleading pieces of information about intelligent design that PBS produces in the program...
I'm eager to see what mistakes and misleading pieces of information about intelligent design were made.

Is ID a theory? I'd be interested to see how they can defend that. The only prediction I've seen ID make is that certain structures would prove to be "irreducibly complex", and that prediction was smashed to pieces.
 
T'ai said:
T'ai, you accidently linked to the Discovery Institute. Everyone knows they are a bunch of clowns.

I loved the mousetrap as tie clasp. I hadn't seen that one before. Which brings up, yet again: What is the definition of irreducible complexity du jour? If you need an example of moving the goalposts . . .

~~ Paul
 
While there wasn't a whole lot about how evolution works (that wasn't what the show was about) there was enough to show how well accepted it is. The bit about how modern genetics fit like a glove into the already-existing theory of evolution was particularly great.

As I've been complaining since the case came down, unfortunately Crevo cannot be argued in the courts as science v. woo, but have to be decided on Establishment grounds. I think, with all the constrains of a two hour program telling the story of 3ish years, giving both sides and the basis of the case being Constitutional rather than scientific they did a magificent job with the science for the layman. As one of them pointed out during Miller's recreated testimony - I'd never learned any of this stuff in school.

Behe and quite a few other of the witnesses for the defense refused to be on the show. I suppose I can't blame them for not wanting to relive one of the worst embarrassments of their lives.

Dembski was the only one I recognized who crapped out on testifying. The others I hate to admit I wasn't familiar with. Behe screwed the pooch on the bench and Phillip Johnson dropped the ball during his on camera interviews.

I loved the scene where they stacked the books up in front of Behe to refute his "no studies of the evolution of the immune system" claim. The defense lawyer called it "cheap theatrics". I notice he didn't try to claim that Behe was right.

That was, along with the Tiktaalik tangent, the most delicious scientific evidence - even more than Chromosome 2. The best was the analysis of Behe's claims about the flegellum and the researcher on who's research he'd made his claim, citing the bubonic plague bacteria as debunking Behe's pet argument.

A close fourth was Miller wearing the mousetrap tieclip.

One of the things I didn't know was how the author and editors of "Of Pandas and People" did a very poor "search and replace" on an earlier copy of the text to change "creationism" to "intelligent design". That was the nail-in-the-coffin as far as to whether or not they were trying to teach creationism.

I was aware of the cut and paste job, but I was not aware of how sloppy they were while doing it. It was a delicious revelation.

[*]The people who DID go on the show supporting ID looked like idiots. Evil idiots. One of them out-and-out espoused ignorance, saying of the Bible, "that's all I need to know".

Another delicious irony in this case, while DI does all it can to say ID isn't Creationism, almost every advocate of ID in the classroom is a Creationist who wants the science class to be an extention of Sunday School. Lousy lying Creationist weasels.

[*]"Irreducible complexity" was reduced to rubble. The "mousetrap to tie-clip" analogy was amusing and understandable to everyone.

Not that I want to tangent into my pet "hate the belief, don't hate the believer" peeve, but I've seen Ken Miller debate before an the actor who protrayed him in the courtroom reinactments captured his ebulent style. I think his "magic wafer turning into Jesus in his tummy" beliefs are a bit odd, but I would never speak ill of him for his religious beliefs when he is such an effective and powerful ally in the Crevo debate and such a profound critic of C/ID. We need more allies in this battle and we'll make more progess embracing Miller and Francis Collins than we will alienating them by telling them how stupid they are for having religious beliefs - despite what people like articulett think.

I hope all the people who say, "Evolution is just a theory" were watching when they explained the scientific meaning of "theory".

If the PRATT list were subject to a ranking, "evolution is just a theory" would be number one or two. Maddening to the point where I get QWERTYface from slamming my head in my keyboard when I read it.
 
I haven't seen that rebuttal before. I'm sure they're still blinded by the logic.
They don't know what logic is, so being blinded by logic is not their problem, it is just being blind that is.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
I agree. It's really amazing that he thought he was going to be able to turn back the clock by getting ID widely accepted. Of course he doesn't see his fundamental (no pun intended) flaw. Science is objective. One theory will not unseat another theory by force of will. One theory has to be provable superior, scientifically. And you can't change the rules in your attempt to win.

I could write many paragraphs about what's wrong with Johnson and ID, but I'll try and distill it down to the rest of this one. Johnson, and a number of other ID proponents (DI folks, not just the useful idiots like the board members in Dover) are out to evangelize and think all they need to do is present a "drop on your knees" argument and evolutionary theory will crumble. Johnson is particularly bad since he's a lawyer and thinks all he has to do is get inside the reader/listener to convert them. One of his books is called "Defeating Darwinism: Changing minds by changing hearts" - or something like that.

Anyone who knows anything about science knows that our hearts don't think. He's so caught up in evangelical zeal he just ignores the fact that hundreds of thousands of peer reviewed papers on evolution have been produced since the publication of Origin and thinks that if he can just produce a "if the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit" mantra his side will "win."

I don't normally get into apologetics, but it's that sort of stupid **** we see from Kirk Cameron and his band of idiots. "What if I were to tell you I could show you Buddah's grave but you couldn't show me Jesus'"? Ummm, what if I were to explain to you that in Buddhist theology Gautama would have to die in order to transcend to the next level dumb***? If your "killer ap" is based on ****y theology, how can I expect you to know a flagellum from an illium when it comes to biology and the complexities of evolutionary theory?

Which brings us back to Johnson and a point Tricky made in his evaluation of the show - why the hell did, of all the smack talking blowhards at DI - Johnson be the only one to agree to an interview? It was one of the great ironies on the show, while the C/IDers whined about "if evolution were so strong, why can't it handle some competition in the classroom" only Johnson and another lawyer who didn't know what the hell they were talking about had the balls to appear on camera. They're simply cowards when it comes to appearing in an environment where there isn't presentation of position A and position B - there is give and take and actual bebate. It's a typical MO of most C/IDers who aren't instransigents or mentally unstable....

Just to be fair, some rebuttal from the 'other side':
{snip links}

And speaking of which... I'm shocked that DI had rebuttals. It wouldn't surprise me if those were pre-writted and posted as soon as the show aired in the Eastern and Central time zones. Let me guess the transcript "Wah Wah, Behe was misquoted". "Wah Wah, the Of Pandas and People typos were misrepresented" "Wah Wah, Tiktaalik is a fraud." "Wah Wah why wouldn't Nova let us demand editorial supremacy over what was aired on the show."

I wish these cowardly crybabies would step up to the plate and be more willing to get their asses kicked in public like they do when there is honest debate rather than stacking the audience with Creationists who root for people who deny Christ while ostensibly doing his work...

If any of your are interested in how the doc is playing out on two forums I read/post to, here's links to threads.
http://forums.christianity.com/Judgement_Day:_Intelligent_Design_on_Trial/m_2853798/mpage_1/tm.htm#1
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=104187
 
I haven't seen that rebuttal before. I'm sure they're still blinded by the logic.

T'roll Chi, any chance you can actually address the content of the show, DI's supposed response to it, and offer something anything to this conversation other than just your usual "itneresting" comments?
 

I don't see how you can argue for ID and not imply a god.

I see they use the "alien race" as the token alternative to a god but they don't seem to take that as a serious alternative.
In the Nightline interview the reported asked Dr. Meyer what he thought the "intelligence" was he answered "God".
The ID question really can only boiled down to two possibilities; an alien race or a god. (Unless somebody knows of other possibilities in the ID argument.)
And if you ask most ID proponents I'm sure more than 90% of them will say god when cornered.
 
In the Nightline interview the reported asked Dr. Meyer what he thought the "intelligence" was he answered "God".

Well to be sure there are implications on both sides:

"Although atheism might have been logically tenable before Charles Darwin, Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist." [Dawkins, 1986, p. 6]

but these implications aren't the theory themself.
 
Theistic evolution

"in which teaching "intelligent design" in the public schools was ruled to be unconstitutional"

Well, that's overstating the case a little. It was just not allowed in public school biology class from what I understand.

My favorite take on intelligent design is that Charles Darwin was right but that God guided the evolution. This way you can take biology in school and actually learn biology and go to church..
 
I don't see how you can argue for ID and not imply a god.

I see they use the "alien race" as the token alternative to a god but they don't seem to take that as a serious alternative.
In the Nightline interview the reported asked Dr. Meyer what he thought the "intelligence" was he answered "God".
The ID question really can only boiled down to two possibilities; an alien race or a god. (Unless somebody knows of other possibilities in the ID argument.)
And if you ask most ID proponents I'm sure more than 90% of them will say god when cornered.
The "aliens diddit" argument doesn't work - how did the aliens arise? Unless you've got infinite recursion, ID requires a supernatural designer - a god.
 
And speaking of which... I'm shocked that DI had rebuttals. It wouldn't surprise me if those were pre-writted and posted as soon as the show aired in the Eastern and Central time zones. Let me guess the transcript "Wah Wah, Behe was misquoted". "Wah Wah, the Of Pandas and People typos were misrepresented" "Wah Wah, Tiktaalik is a fraud." "Wah Wah why wouldn't Nova let us demand editorial supremacy over what was aired on the show."

Are you sure you didn't read the rebuttals? That is eerily close to the content of the first one.
 
The "aliens diddit" argument doesn't work - how did the aliens arise? Unless you've got infinite recursion, ID requires a supernatural designer - a god.

The infinite recursion is a problem to just about everything. Take naturalism and the Big Bang. How did that happen?

The 'solution' seems to be to define the question as non-sensical by saying everything was created at that time, so there was no before to speak about. But this is no better than saying 'god created', since we know energy cannot arise by spontaneous generation.

The infinite recursion I don't see as much of a problem for some religious thinkers. First, not all of them take a literal interpretation of any religious text. Not all of them are arguing 'there is only 1 god!'. If there is at least one, it answers the question of 'if' there was design, just as if there were 500.
 
Well to be sure there are implications on both sides:

"Although atheism might have been logically tenable before Charles Darwin, Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist." [Dawkins, 1986, p. 6]

but these implications aren't the theory themself.

Well the difference is that ID forces the implication. The "intelligence" in intelligent design cannot be interpreted any other way.

Evolution does not, by necessity, exclude the existance of a god. It just does not deal with the question at all.
 
My favorite take on intelligent design is that Charles Darwin was right but that God guided the evolution. This way you can take biology in school and actually learn biology and go to church..

That was the Vatican's view untill Herr Benny took up residence.
 
The "intelligence" in intelligent design cannot be interpreted any other way.

Uh yeah it can. :)

The pure form of design detection does not address what the designer is. It could be aliens, for example.

Maybe a highly advanced alien race, the kind that SETI is looking for.
 
The "aliens diddit" argument doesn't work - how did the aliens arise? Unless you've got infinite recursion, ID requires a supernatural designer - a god.

Yep, I missed that bit there.

Dr.Meyer stated in the interview that some ID'rs supported the "aliens" definition without ever asking about where the "aliens" came from.

Just the kind of obfuscating BS the ID camp is prone to use to hide thier true agenda.

ID can only imply God.
 

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