School shooting in Finland

zooterkin already hinted at this, but lets tie up the thread with a big Larsen bow.

If someone on the internet has a posted statement of his intention to kill sky marshals, what is the appropriate level of response in relation to a posted video of his intention to kill schoolmates. What is the criteria? Is it refusal to specify that they are joking when asked? Refusal to post a clear statement afterwards that they wouldn't kill the people they said they would? Clear agreement in the surrounding online community that they weren't serious?

By these standards you should be turning yourself in, CFLarsen.
 
Larsen - I am against people owning guns, and I think that *if* anyone saw a video with a specific threat then they should report it. BUT you have a happy knackof making it very difficult for anyone to agree with you about anything!

I think because of the nature of the internet, you tend to assume that anything you see has been seen by plenty of people before. This contributes the diffusion of responsibilityWP and the bystander effectWP. Which is probably the reason behind people not reporting it if indeed they did see it.
 
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Larsen - I am against people owning guns, and I think that *if* anyone saw a video with a specific threat then they should report it. BUT you have a happy knackof making it very difficult for anyone to agree with you about anything!

I think because of the nature of the internet, you tend to assume that anything you see has been seen by plenty of people before. This contributes the diffusion of responsibilityWP and the bystander effectWP. Which is probably the reason behind people not reporting it if indeed they did see it.

Agreed on all points (except the very first), Professor Yaffle. There is also, which I alluded to before, the fact that the internet is full of information of dubious veracity. How much digging would be required to be sure that a video you had just found was what it appeared to be, and not a clip from a film, or some viral marketing stunt, or a prank (as in the example CFL gave) or one of other many possibilities which are more likely?
 
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We can talk about this as soon as you can manage to distinguish between posting a video and killing people.

That's not the issue.

How do you distinguish between people who intend to carry out these actions, and those who don't?

If someone on the internet has a posted statement of his intention to kill sky marshals

Good thing I didn't do that, then.

Larsen - I am against people owning guns, and I think that *if* anyone saw a video with a specific threat then they should report it. BUT you have a happy knackof making it very difficult for anyone to agree with you about anything!

That's precisely what we're talking about: A video with a specific threat: Where a school is named, a threat of a massacre and a time it will happen.

I think because of the nature of the internet, you tend to assume that anything you see has been seen by plenty of people before. This contributes the diffusion of responsibilityWP and the bystander effectWP. Which is probably the reason behind people not reporting it if indeed they did see it.

I'm not assuming that at all. I'm pointing out that if someone saw such a specific threat, they should report it.
 
CFLarsen said:
Good thing I didn't do that, then.
Naw, you just said that you'd kill anyone with a handgun on a plane, apparently without checking to see if he's a sky marshal or not.

Totally not the same thing. :rolleyes:
 
What is "They didn't rush him - they stood there. It's not particularly difficult to tag 20 people in that situation." supposed to mean?
That they were at fault? That they deserved getting killed?
It means, if you are blessed with third grade reading comprehension skills that is, that you can hit them easily. He could have been stopped very easily however.

Would you call them "massacres", yes or no?
Nah, It's a fad to achieve fame and infamy. Turn your school into Counter Strike. Massacres will occur when someone copies Mujahideen and uses off the shelf explosives, or vehicles and explosives, instead of firearms.

Do you think it is the skeptical conclusion - that civilians should be able to own a gun?
Um, civilians are already able to own guns for clearly valid reasons. Now, how you reached the opposite conclusion is something no critical thinking enthusiast managed to get you to explain.

Sadly, to some, it is to be treated as a joke.
Why should you be trusted with a propane tank? You could make a thermobaric grenade and throw it at someone for absolutely no reason whatsoever!
 
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It means, if you are blessed with third grade reading comprehension skills, that you can hit them easily. He could have been stopped very easily however.

So you are blaming them for being killed.

Nah, It's a fad to achieve fame and infamy. Turn your school into Counter Strike. Massacres will occur when someone copies Mujahideen and uses off the shelf explosives, or vehicles and explosives, instead of firearms.

What, to you, constitutes a massacre?

Um, civilians are already able to own guns for clearly valid reasons. Now, how you reached the opposite conclusion is something no critical thinking enthusiast managed to get you to explain.

You are still avoiding the question. It isn't about valid reasons. I am asking if you think it is the skeptical conclusion - that civilians should be able to own a gun?

Have you reached this conclusion by examining the evidence and come to a conclusion based on critical thinking?

Why should you be trusted with a propane tank? You could make a thermobaric grenade and throw it at someone for absolutely no reason whatsoever!


You are also avoiding this one: Why should anyone trust you - Philip - with a gun?
 
CFLarsen said:
So you are blaming them for being killed.
Sure. It's all their fault. I mean, pointing out a simple fact that, say, just standing there while someone is going to shoot you will make it more likely you will be shot always amounts to saying that they deserved to be killed.

Certainly a skeptical conclusion. :rolleyes:

So, do you have anything besides an appeal to emotion, Larsen? Or do you have evidence that you're just as likely to be shot standing as you are moving or attacking?

You are also avoiding this one: Why should anyone trust you - Philip - with a gun?
Actually, since the law already says that he can be trusted, and because you want to convince us that the law should be changed so Philip can't be trusted with a gun... shouldn't you be the one demonstrating why he can't be?

Oh, right, I forgot. Only you can ask questions. Everyone else has all the burden of proof, which you are free to ignore whenever they come up. ;)
 
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Sure. It's all their fault. I mean, pointing out a simple fact that, say, just standing there while someone is going to shoot you will make it more likely you will be shot always amounts to saying that they deserved to be killed.

Certainly a skeptical conclusion. :rolleyes:

So, do you have anything besides an appeal to emotion, Larsen? Or do you have evidence that you're just as likely to be shot standing as you are moving or attacking?

I have no idea what you are talking about.
 
Just answer the question.

If someone on the internet has a posted statement of his intention to kill sky marshals, what is the appropriate level of response in relation to a posted video of his intention to kill schoolmates. What is the criteria? Is it refusal to specify that they are joking when asked? Refusal to post a clear statement afterwards that they wouldn't kill the people they said they would? Clear agreement in the surrounding online community that they weren't serious?

Stop dodging.
 
Actually, since the law already says that he can be trusted, and because you want to convince us that the law should be changed so Philip can't be trusted with a gun... shouldn't you be the one demonstrating why he can't be?

That's an interesting stance.

The law is the sole reason whether or not people can be trusted with something?

Do you think people can be trusted with heroin?
 
CFLarsen said:
That's an interesting stance.

The law is the sole reason whether or not people can be trusted with something?

Do you think people can be trusted with heroin?
Once again, you play 20 questions. You just can't answer a single question, or provide evidence for any of your claims, can you? You always get everyone else to always do the legwork.

I don't mind you being an asshat, but being an asshat while consistently getting everyone else to do all the work, while doing none yourself is inherently annoying.

And the bit with heroin is a bit of a red herring. I don't quite get where you're going with that. You are the one that is trying to get the law to be changed. I'm not saying that the law saying it's okay makes it okay. I'm saying that you need to provide evidence as to why the law should be changed. Nice to see someone that keeps proclaiming how great a skeptic he is is resorting to such gross logical fallacies as appeals to emotion and strawmen, though. Great going, Larsen!

For instance, I think that you should be arrested for wearing purple on a Thursday. Why? I don't have to explain myself. You just should. Doesn't quite go over well, does it?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Really? Big surprise, there. Let me explain it with small words. I'll even type slowly.

Here, we have Philip. He says:

It means, if you are blessed with third grade reading comprehension skills, that you can hit them easily. He could have been stopped very easily however.

He is saying that if you just stand there, you are more likely to be hit by someone that is shooting at you. This is a pretty simple fact. It does not "blame" anyone for anything. It states, simply and clearly, that if you make a hard target, you will be harder to hit. I'm not so sure why this is so hard for you to comprehend.

Instead of responding rationally, you say this:

CFLarsen said:
So you are blaming them for being killed
This is an obvious appeal to emotion, and a pretty disgusting one at that. You are claiming that he is not expressing a simple fact, but he is giving blame to the victims. This is an attempt to make him take back his statement, because you cannot counter his claim in any other way besides cowardly debate tactics.

He is not giving blame to the victims. At no point, does he say that the victims are at fault for the shooting. I'm sure that he, just as much as I, feel that what happened was the fault of the shooter and that it was a very sad event.

However, we both also feel that, quite frankly, targets that put up a fight tend to be much harder to put down. Think about it, Larsen; who's easier to hit with any kind of an object (melee or ranged)? The man that stands still, or the man that's running or currently fighting you? That's not a hard question, and I know you love questions, so go ahead and ask it*.

It doesn't put the victims "at fault", but it does mean that there are things that you can do to make the situation less worse than it was. It does not make you a perpetrator or "at blame" for the action.



*I wouldn't say "answer it", because Larsen hasn't answered a single question in his life.
 
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That's not the issue.

I don't see how we can discuss with you the issue of what action to take if a video like the one in this case is seen on the internet while you have not clarified your implication that not reporting it is exactly equivalent to not reporting a school shooting that is in progress.

Did you really mean to say that the two things are the same? If so, then we can't take anything else you say seriously. If not, why the heck don't you clarify what you meant?
 
Because the objective is to generate controversy and attention. The Virginia Tech incident being a perfect illustration, he took movie poster photographs complete with action hero scowl as part of his 'media kit' which was sent to MSNBC.

See above. It's rather easy to figure out..

Firearms are a dramatic and personal (in contradiction to your thoughts) way to go, made glamorous due to film and games, and will continue to be preferred because of the attention and infamy that generates.

If you remember my initial post, my own speculation as to "why handguns" was along similar psychological "glamour" lines. I was speculating though, and as you seemed to discount this explanation, I backed down from it. The point is not why they use them, the point is that they use them.

But what happens when he uses a sword he learned to use in Bushido class or a chainsaw to do the same damage?

They (disturbed grudge-based multiple murderers) don't though, do they? Post examples if they do, by all means. If you haven't worked it out yet, I actually want to be convinced that gun bans don't work whatsoever. I already think they don't work in general terms, for the reasons of illegal weapons being readily obtainable and lawful gun owners being by and large very responsible people. The "flip-out" killings are a different proposition. Try to separate the two. Rational gun crime vs irrational gun crime if you will. Laws do nothing to stop the former, but arguably something to ameliorate the latter.

Do we restrict dangerous and useful products to prevent trivial sensationalized incidents to compensate for cultural decay?

Well, we probably shouldn't, but we do. They've just banned replica guns and "samurai swords" (whatever that means) in the UK. A group of surgeons a couple of years ago tried to ban all knives over 4 inches long, on the grounds that critical penetrative injuries would be reduced (won't someone think of the sushi chefs?!). I absolutely disagree with this "BAN IT!" mentality, and if I could be sure bans didn't have an impact on irrational gun crime, I would disagree with those too, more than I already do for their knee-jerk, blanket, criminalising nature. These things only get through when the "moral" majority flexes its collective muscle. Democracy isn't always what you personally want.

You can't restrict lawfully owned firearms without increasing the crime rate far higher (privately owned firearms are a robbery deterrent among other things) than any trivial one would be reduced.

Any evidence for that? I suppose in a society already saturated with guns, they might be such a deterrent. But certainly, gun crime in general has continued to rise in the UK, thanks to the cultural problems at its root, and the ready availability of illegal guns. Like I say, I agree with you in general. It's just these nutters that seem to acquire legal weapons and later use them in murders like this.

The solution: encouraging CCW licenses and sidearms being carried around schools is, along with armed security, how to solve the problem.

Maybe. I'd want conclusive evidence (trial areas?) of this before adding more weapons to the equation. In any case, it would be a uniquely American solution to a uniquely American problem. Most countries don't have the cultural attachment nor the sheer number of weapons that the US has.

Disarming the populace isn't, it's simply flatly uneducated and idiotic.

Thing is, in the UK, guns were never held for home defence, and the courts would take a dim view of anyone using what at one time would be disproportionate force against an intruder who, most likely, wouldn't even have access to a gun. Times have changed, illegal guns have increased exponentially, but your typical home invader is still not armed with a firearm - this makes any sentence handed down MUCH bigger, and also gives the homeowner much more leeway to (if they can) beat the living hell out of them if they can. IOW armed home robberies are the exception. Post Offices and banks, sure. Have some armed security. But the average home? I wouldn't trust more than about 20% of the UK population, given extensive training, with any kind of weapon, let alone a firearm. People are stupid, frightened, and lack judgement. Your average citizen having guns for home defence is another mainly US notion.

In the U.K you can't defend your home or person and the authorities don't even carry sidearms, only specialized units. Obtaining pistols, shotguns or assault rifles for illegal purposes is easy as obtaining drugs. What is the point of this being slightly difficult by preventing the population from safeguarding their communities?

As I said, home defence with firearms was never a British thing. We just do things differently. And it's only the last 20 years or so that it's begun to fail us. Many would still challenge your assertion that widespread civil gun ownership is the solution.

Criminals don't obtain weapons through legal, traceable channels.

Rational criminals don't. People like Michael Ryan, Thomas Hamilton, Seung-Hui Cho and "NaturalSelector89" do.

And this did absolutely nothing but potentially increase less sensational crime, when encouraging citizens to safeguard their communities and schools through public CCW permits and training were obvious solutions.

Erm, no. Not in my country. Exactly what crimes do you think the 40,000 legal shooters in the UK would have been able to affect? The government weren't legislating to reduce crime overall, just crimes with guns, these killings in particular. It rode a popular "never again" sentiment (understandable) as well as general prejudice against gun ownership and gun owners (clearly wrong).

Which is wonderful to know in reducing the apprehension of robbing someone's house in that country, isn't it?

We're quite happy as things stand, thanks very much. Burglars here (and in most of Europe) still don't arm themselves with guns; the gun crime problem here is intra-and extra-gang. Which means innocent civilians living in problem areas get killed too. All sides having guns doesn't help them very much.
 
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You accept the risk, then? You are not going to advocate any changes in Finland because of this?
A rare incident happened. EVERYBODY PANIC! START LEGISLATING STUFF NOW!!


Face the facts, Timhau. CFL, by a process of pure reason, has demonstrated that you're guilty of this atrocity. You could have known about this crazed teenager and his threats; you have an internet connection, don't you? Knowing about him, you should have cried out to every police station in Finland. After all, how do you know it was only Riverside High that he meant to attack? How could you assume such an outrageously irresponsible thing?

CFL would certainly have prevented this tragedy, if he had known about it, and I'm sure he made every effort. It's not his fault that he doesn't speak Finnish. After all, you both speak English. You could have warned him.
:newlol

Again: I can only lead you to the evidence. I can't make you accept it.
Instead of repeating that, you could, like, repost the "evidence" that apparently everyone missed.

How can you take on that kind of responsibility?
Yes, how dare he not become a hysterical harpy.

I asked if that was what he meant.

Here's the difference between a claim and a question.

Please learn the difference.
Apparently you have not heard of the term implication. Or you're just your usual disgustingly disingenuous self.


No, that's not what I said either.
Yet that's exactly what everyone else understood you saying, and you never bothered clarifying your meaning. Nice try.
 
Obtaining pistols, shotguns or assault rifles for illegal purposes is easy as obtaining drugs.

I'd like to see some evidence for this assertion. It seems to be very unlikely to be true. The reason drugs are so readily available is because there's a huge demand for them - but there is no correspondingly large demand for illegal guns (in the UK).

I get offered drugs walking around London frequently, but nobody has ever in my entire life offered me a gun. I am fairly sure that if I asked a drug dealer if he could get me a gun, he'd look at me like I was crazy.
 
Good point actually Matthew. They are relatively easily available, but you have to seek them out, at considerably greater risk both to your personal safety and in terms of likely sentence if you're found out. Really, you need to know who to ask, more so than getting hold of drugs, since dealers self-identify to an extent and are advertised by word-of-mouth amongst otherwise law-abiding people. Gun crime is by and large as I said - inter and extra-gang in inner city areas, so the channels for getting hold of them are geared toward said gangs. A socially awkward individual is going to struggle to make these connections, where he could get himself drugs or prostitutes without having to do much more than say "hello" to a likely-looking person on the street.
 

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