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perhaps not everything is lost for astrology

For generations, astrologers cast horoscopes and made predictions. These were made based on the knowledge they had at the time.

Then, in 1930, this whole new planet - Pluto - was discovered. That means that, if astrology were valid, in fact Pluto was influencing all those people for thousands of years, whether they knew about it or not. But none of that influence was included or accounted for by the charts cast prior to that discovery, which believers in astrology will try to tell you were just as accurate as charts cast afterward, even though they could not have included Pluto's influence because it was not known.


The astrologers should have been able to detect Pluto's influence by looking at the discrepancy between the charts and what was actually observed in real life, and beat the astronomers to the discovery of the planet.

If astrology were valid.
 
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Cinnabar is basically Mercury Sulfide (HgS). It is naturally occuring and can mined to extract the mercury, or used to make pigments (vermillion?). It can also be made synthetically, and was treated like a medicine by alchemists in a manner similar to other toxins such as arsenic. The process used to make cinnabar uses a solution of mercury salt, rather than mercury (sometimes known as quicksilver). We were required to do a lab where we made one alchemical substance, and I chose cinnabar mostly because I liked the color. :o

Ah, okay. [and what better reason to pick cinnabar? Besides, I like the name. It sounds all mystic.]
 
Before I address the problem of how planets get named, and which comes first, the naming or the personality trait association, I'd just like to do a bit of tidying up. Firstly I'm sorry that I didn't reply to Gord in Toronto's post - I'm not ignoring you and did read your posts but just got carried away with other ones.

I also found the post by sthomson that I meant to reply to earlier, and I'm glad I did, because it sums up a lot of what has been going on over the past week:

... I think the conversational disconnect may stem from the fact that some of us are looking for astrology to be predictive, while you think that astrology can only be used to analyze events that have already occurred. In other words, astrology for you is like a framework which you use to interpret past events or other people. Is that an accurate description of your position on astrology?

Yes, it is. Thank you for phrasing this so clearly.

I'd also like to say a bit about the "galactic center", which someone mentioned earlier - was it ben m, forgive me if it was someone else. This position, as charted from earth, is at about 28 Tropical Sagittarius, and right now, Pluto is transiting it. According to some astrologers (and I'm sure you will think this is prime woo), this would mean a big transformation (Pluto) of some sort, although I have no idea what.
 
Now I'd like to try to explain about how planets get named and answer Hokulele's question " Which came first, the name of the planet, or the association with personality traits?"

The naming of the planet came first.
Astrologers didn't persuade the Astronomical Union to call the planet, in this case, the one discoverd in 1930, Pluto - they wanted to name it after a Greek god, like the other planets, but I think it was suggested by a 12 year old girl from Oxford. It's also a coincidence that the first two letters of Pluto are the initials of Percival Lowell, at whose observatory Clyde Tombaugh discovered it.

After it was discovered, astrologers charted it in people's horoscopes, and to their surprise, the planet seemed to symbolize traits that could also be ascribed to the Greek god (also known as Hades). stood for - wealth, but also an ability to dig below the surface, (he was king of the underworld) as in what we now call psychology. In the myth, Pluto abducts Persephone in the autumn and keeps her underground for 6 months, only releasing her to her mother Demeter in the Spring. Just as the cycle of nature regenerates itself when leaves fall to fertilize the ground ready for the new growth in the spring, the planet Pluto was seen to represent the psychological trait of transformation and regeneration, and it was given co-rulership of the sign Scorpio. Pluto was also found to indicate secrecy, control and sexual passion.

I know that it seems as though astrologers could have just made up these correlations just to fit the traits of the mythical god, but if we look at many, charts, the evidence becomes more convincing. As a single example, look at what went on in the life of Brad Pitt during 2005-2006, when Pluto transited his Sagittarian Sun (Pluto transits take up to 2 years). He went through a complete transormation of his love interest and partner, much of this done in secret, at least at first, from Jennifer Anniston to Angelina Jolie, and started travelling (Sagittarius) and dispensing his wealth in countries that needed help. I know that one example doesn't prove anything, but I'm sure that there are others if we look for them.

As for the question of the difference between Pluto in a chart of a contemporary person and Pluto in the chart of say Henry VIII, I did explain this back earlier in the thread. Before the date when planets are discovered physically, of course their associations still exist, but they are not completely understood by the mass of humanity. For example the power of mass psychology and control over people wasn't really understood in a way that we could pinpoint to the actual planet, until exhibited by fascism, especially Hitler, in the 1930s
 
As mentioned yesterday, there is an esoteric view that planets get discovered when humanity is ready to understand their symbolism self consciously. There are different ways that astrologers assign meanings to planets; they have been termed, somewhat poetically, history, mystery, observation and myth.
I mentioned that in the tarot series and Tree of Life there were actually spaces for a new planet. Also, all 12 Zodiac signs have rulers, for example Mars rules Aries, Mercury rules Gemini, and some of the signs have planets that are "exalted" in these signs, for example Sun is exalted in Aries, Saturn in Libra. When new planets are discovered physically, astrologers speculate on whether the new planet might be better as a ruler or exalted in a certain sign. This sort of speculation would fall under the "mystery" way of categorizing the planet. Looking at the planet's name, for example Saturn, and comparing it to stories in mythology is of course the myth side. Then there is the method of looking at history - for example, what was going on when Uranus was discovered in 1781 - revolution, and the beginning of an intense era of invention and technology ( I think that the cotton gin and the steam engine were invented around then).

The last method that astrologers use to assign symbolism to a planet is this rather pathetic, crummy, pseudo-scientific method of observation, looking at many charts and then trying to find some link to all the other methods used above.
 
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Do comets influence us?

According to the aphorism "as above so below", everything in the sky has some sort of correlation on earth. Or put from a more esoteric viewpioint, everything inside our "souls" has a correlation with things in the universe, because God is the Macrocosm, and we are the Microcosm, and latter is supposed to be an image of the former (although not a perfect one).

The best example of a comet which has become very important in astrology is the "cometoid"/asteroid named Chiron, which was discovered in 1977 - well actually it was seen much earlier, but pinpointed then by astronomers in California. It was found inbetween the orbits of Saturn and Uranus. It was named (by astronomers) after the Greek mythical centaur who was renouned as a healer, astrologer and musician, but he sustained a wound that he could not heal on himself. Some astrologers have found traits like this when analyzing charts, while others have found it to be correlated to fame and charisma. The speculation is ongoing.
 
As for the question of the difference between Pluto in a chart of a contemporary person and Pluto in the chart of say Henry VIII, I did explain this back earlier in the thread. Before the date when planets are discovered physically, of course their associations still exist, but they are not completely understood by the mass of humanity. For example the power of mass psychology and control over people wasn't really understood in a way that we could pinpoint to the actual planet, until exhibited by fascism, especially Hitler, in the 1930s

What about the fact that Pluto is now considered a dwarf planet? Or that there are other objects in the solar system, recently discovered, that are as large or larger than Pluto?

Just a few years ago, before the discovery of these objects, astrologers said they understood astrology. Now there's more objects to account for. Are there associations that were not understood a few years ago that are now suddenly understood? How accurate could today's horoscopes possibly be considering that they don't take into account the planetoid that might be discovered tomorrow?
 
What about the fact that Pluto is now considered a dwarf planet? Or that there are other objects in the solar system, recently discovered, that are as large or larger than Pluto?

I did explain this above, somewhere.

Just a few years ago, before the discovery of these objects, astrologers said they understood astrology. Now there's more objects to account for. Are there associations that were not understood a few years ago that are now suddenly understood? How accurate could today's horoscopes possibly be considering that they don't take into account the planetoid that might be discovered tomorrow?

Dear NobbyNobbs and everyone, I'm not tryng to evade your questions, but as you can see, I am getting a bit overwhelmed by all the posts. I think that I've tried to answer most of them over the past week, and in earlier pages of this thread, but am really feeling overwhelmed now, as I am the only astrology student who seems to be answering at the moment. I need to get on with the rest of my life, so I hope that someone else can pick up where I am leaving off, if they want to.

If anyone is interested in reading up on psychological astrology, and the philosophies behind it, I would recommend books by one of my favorite astrology authors, Liz Greene.

Thank you everyone for the dialogue,
All the best,
Aquila
 
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According to the aphorism "as above so below", everything in the sky has some sort of correlation on earth. Or put from a more esoteric viewpioint, everything inside our "souls" has a correlation with things in the universe, because God is the Macrocosm, and we are the Microcosm, and latter is supposed to be an image of the former (although not a perfect one).

The best example of a comet which has become very important in astrology is the "cometoid"/asteroid named Chiron, which was discovered in 1977 - well actually it was seen much earlier, but pinpointed then by astronomers in California. It was found inbetween the orbits of Saturn and Uranus. It was named (by astronomers) after the Greek mythical centaur who was renouned as a healer, astrologer and musician, but he sustained a wound that he could not heal on himself. Some astrologers have found traits like this when analyzing charts, while others have found it to be correlated to fame and charisma. The speculation is ongoing.

Yes or no would have been fine.

So, undiscovered planets can influence our traits in ways which can't be fully understood until the planet's discovery, at which time it all falls into place.

What happens to those traits then which are attributed to a comet (or whatever, since you mention that everything counts) that does a Shoemaker-Levy? Do those traits disappear forever from humanity?
 
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Some of those who have been following this thread might be interested to know that in May of this year a PhD was awarded by a UK university for a thesis on "Applications of astrology to health psychology: psychological and astrological factors and fertility treatment outcome".

Thanks for that, Thing. As if I wasn't already ashamed of my country :(
 
I should make it clear that I've not read the thesis in question and can't comment on the quality of the research.
 
Now I'd like to try to explain about how planets get named and answer Hokulele's question " Which came first, the name of the planet, or the association with personality traits?"

The naming of the planet came first.
No. Really?

After it was discovered, astrologers charted it in people's horoscopes, and to their surprise, the planet seemed to symbolize traits that could also be ascribed to the Greek god (also known as Hades). stood for
Oh, I just bet they were surprised.

I know that it seems as though astrologers could have just made up these correlations just to fit the traits of the mythical god
Yes.

but if we look at many, charts, the evidence becomes more convincing.
No.

As a single example
Which clearly serves no purpose, if we need to look at many charts to be convinced.

And now Pluto is categorised as a dwarf planet along with Ceres and Eris. Do they appear on your astrological charts? Why not? And how do you account for Sedna and Quaoar and Orcus and Varuna and Ixion? Not to mention "Santa" and "Easterbunny" - real objects, not much smaller than Pluto? And Cruithne, sometimes called "Earth's second moon"? What's Cruithne's influence? And how about Ganymede, Titan, Callisto, Io, Europa and Triton, all larger and closer than Pluto? How do they figure in?

Or have they not surprised the astronomers yet?
 
Forget about Pluto, what about Goofy and Dopey, the dwarf planet? Aren't they the ones that exert the most influence over astrologers?
 
It's such a shame that Sterculus, the Roman god of manure, didn't have a planet named after him. It would have explained so much of the BS inherent in astrology. :(
 

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