Debunkers / truthers changing sides

[Sparky]

After the 2nd plane hit I knew it was a terrorist attack. Since I work in the construction industry (fire protection engineering) I knew the effect the fires were going to have on the buildings so there was and is absolutely no way anyone was going to convince me of any CD scenario.

 

[NikZeta302]

I live in Austin and when I was 15 I heard Alex Jones ranting on the TV I was nodding my head (since all 15 year olds hate people of power), then I matured and found skepticism.

PS I was I never thought was a CD

 

[SpitfireIX]

Although I'd had a passing interest in conspiracism from studying Pearl Harbor and JFK (I was utterly convinced that Pearl Harbor LIHOP theories were garbage; I wasn't so sure about JFK inside-job ones), I didn't really become interested in debunking until I saw a news item in 2002 about Buzz Aldrin's punching Bart Sibrel; before that I'd assumed that the only fake moon-landing theories were those made up by the editors of the Weekly World News^WP.

The idea actually believed things like this struck me as so utterly bizarre and silly that it piqued my curiosity, and I started doing research on the Internet. I soon discovered badastronomy.com and clavius.org, and I started lurking on the badastronomy (now the BAUT) forum.

On February 1, 2003, the day Columbia was lost, I was visiting friends in Indianapolis, and one friend's cousin, who teaches history, told me that he sometimes had students ask him if the moon landings were faked. Wrong day to tell me that! I was so outraged that I decided to become a debunker, so I joined badastronomy.com

In the summer of 2003 I went back to school full-time (first in CADD, later in Mechanical Engineering), and I had to periodically take breaks of several months from badastronomy.com. Upon returning from one such break, I noticed several long threads discussing September 11 conspiracism. That was absolutely my first exposure to the subject. I'd never questioned the official account (in fact, on the morning of September 11, when I called my best friend, who works in Washington, D.C., I said, "I wouldn't be selling life insurance to Osama bin Laden."), and when I saw how Jay Windley and other moon-hoax debunkers squashed the September 11 theories, I was sure they were utterly without merit. Nothing I've seen since has given me any significant reason to think otherwise.

 

[Trakar]

I'd say the best fit is 7, given that you clearly don't feel there is sufficient evidence either way to be certain - I'm assuming that you feel that LIHOP or MIHOP-lite is a credible but unproven scenario. Thanks for the clarification.

Dave

That didn't fit from my perspective, because I'm rather clear cut as to the issue of what happened on 9/11, I'm just not at all excluding that administration crimes (of negligence, or more remotely, complicity) aren't potential factors before and since the events of 9/11.

LIHOP? MIHOP-lite?

 

[Trakar]

cut of double post

 

[Bell]

I believe it was al-Qaeda, and always have.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I'm a 3. While I was never a truther and always thought their claims were ridiculous, but at the same time as I watched the hasty attempts to cover behinds and point the finger elsewhere I did have questions about how it was possible for these guys to have been missed and allowed to act right under the noses of the people charged with protecting the US. The more I have researched it the more I am convinced that it was not in any deliberate way, but rather through arrogance in their continued belief they would not be attacked on their home soil even after they had been twice, and after repeated attacks by Al Qaeda that were increasing in audiciousness and scope, through their ignorance of the Middle Eastern psyche and especially that of the Jihadi, their total lack of understanding of the Islamic Relegion/Politics mixture, and their incompetence in relying totally on the systems they built around themselves without ever bothering to stretch those systems to breaking point because of their failure to imagine a worst case senario coming true. One simple excersie between the FAA and NORAD where multiple planes were hijacked simulaneously would have shown up the glaring holes in the system, but those responsible failed repeatedly to listen to though beneath them and never tested it. As has been said many times, the system was blinking red, but all the watch dogs were alseep.

 

[Dave Rogers]

That didn't fit from my perspective, because I'm rather clear cut as to the issue of what happened on 9/11, I'm just not at all excluding that administration crimes (of negligence, or more remotely, complicity) aren't potential factors before and since the events of 9/11.

LIHOP? MIHOP-lite?

LIHOP is Let It Happen On Purpose, which sounds like something you wouldn't exclude. I use MIHOP-lite to refer to the belief that the attacks were carried out exactly as is conventionally understood, but that the ultimate impetus came not from Osama bin Laden but from agents within the US secret services controlling him. If you view these as possible but unlikely then I'd place you in 1, 3 or 5; if you regard them as serious suspicions that's more like 7. Don't get too hung up on it though, it's only a straw poll that doesn't really prove anything.

Dave

 

[gumboot]

I chose "I may have questioned the official story, but after I researched it I was convinced it was Al Qaeda".

I didn't actually really question the official account, because I didn't really become aware of the official account until I was researching it, by which time the evidence pointed to Al Qaeda. However, prior to researching it, had anyone asked me if I thought the government's version was wrong, I would have said "I don't know. Maybe."

-Gumboot

 

[The Silver Shadow]

When these theories came about, I was around 16-17. I had common sense, but I didn't know how to utilize it! Obviously, I hated the US government, but then I thought, "who is the government exactly?" So you could say that I was in between being a skeptic and being a truther. This is where I started questioning the questions and saw that the 9/11 truth movement was bunk. I saw the first bit of evidence while investigating and thought "oh that's just probably an error and you can't always be perfect," but this kept happening over and over again until I got really peed off about it.

 

[Trakar]

LIHOP is Let It Happen On Purpose, which sounds like something you wouldn't exclude. I use MIHOP-lite to refer to the belief that the attacks were carried out exactly as is conventionally understood, but that the ultimate impetus came not from Osama bin Laden but from agents within the US secret services controlling him. If you view these as possible but unlikely then I'd place you in 1, 3 or 5; if you regard them as serious suspicions that's more like 7. Don't get too hung up on it though, it's only a straw poll that doesn't really prove anything.

Dave

Coitenly!

I'm just trying to get a good handle on it myself, and I've really only talked much about it a few times with a relatively small group of people (of extremely polarized perspective). I guess I'm potentially open to LIHOP possibilities, but it would have to be supported by a lot of direct evidence that I haven't seen, yet. I would have to place these at the extreme edge of possibility, at least from my current position. I tend to be much more open to crimes of negligence, carelessness and arrogant incompetence, rather than deliberate and calculated treason and murderous tyranny,...but, I've been wrong in this respect with regards to this administration before, so I guess it wouldn't destroy any precious world-models if I were presented with hard evidence compellingly indicating either LIHOP or MIHOP, but it would take quite a bit of unambiguous, compelling, empiric evidence to get me to accept that.

But yeah, LIHOP or MIHOP, extremely unlikely, I could be dragged to the possibility, but it would require unambiguous hard evidence before I'd begin upgrading potential of "likely."

The attacks of 9/11 planned and executed by al Qaeda extremists. The damages fully consistent with crashes and fires.

Political elements within the government negligent, careless and arrogantly incompetent prior to attacks, and acting with opportunistic manipulation, extreme overreach, and tyrannical entitlement to promote self-serving, nation neglecting/damaging goals after, and in response to, the attacks.

Oh well, guess that helps me to sort things out a bit.

 

[uk_dave]

I've gone for the Planet X option.

From now on I shall be skeptical of all official explanations of major events unless a conspiracy theory pops up, in which case I shall then wholeheartedly embrace the official account.

Today we had major flood alerts along the east coast in the expectation of a massive tidal surge. In the event, the surge was much less than expected and damage was kept to a minimum. But as a precaution large numbers of people were evacuated from their homes. I would like to believe that this was a prudent measure which happened to turn out to be unnecessary. However, until I hear a conspiracy theory regarding the evil government's devious plan to install (Redacted) in peoples houses while they were evacuated, I shall view the official account with extreme skepticism.

C'mon 'truthers', don't let me down.

 

[Sabrina]

Coitenly!

I'm just trying to get a good handle on it myself, and I've really only talked much about it a few times with a relatively small group of people (of extremely polarized perspective). I guess I'm potentially open to LIHOP possibilities, but it would have to be supported by a lot of direct evidence that I haven't seen, yet. I would have to place these at the extreme edge of possibility, at least from my current position. I tend to be much more open to crimes of negligence, carelessness and arrogant incompetence, rather than deliberate and calculated treason and murderous tyranny,...but, I've been wrong in this respect with regards to this administration before, so I guess it wouldn't destroy any precious world-models if I were presented with hard evidence compellingly indicating either LIHOP or MIHOP, but it would take quite a bit of unambiguous, compelling, empiric evidence to get me to accept that.

But yeah, LIHOP or MIHOP, extremely unlikely, I could be dragged to the possibility, but it would require unambiguous hard evidence before I'd begin upgrading potential of "likely."

The attacks of 9/11 planned and executed by al Qaeda extremists. The damages fully consistent with crashes and fires.

Political elements within the government negligent, careless and arrogantly incompetent prior to attacks, and acting with opportunistic manipulation, extreme overreach, and tyrannical entitlement to promote self-serving, nation neglecting/damaging goals after, and in response to, the attacks.

Oh well, guess that helps me to sort things out a bit.

We typically call that LIHOIA (Let It Happen Out of Ignorance and Arrogance) around here. I believe TAM came up with the term (please correct me if I'm wrong though, TAM!) and it's along the lines of what I espouse as well. I work, currently, within the US Intelligence Community, and at every opportunity I found I've questioned intel professionals who were working on 9/11 as to what they knew prior to the day. Everything I've heard indicates, to me, that LIHOIA is the most likely explanation.

 

[CurtC]

Is LIHOIA pronounced like the town in California?

 

[Dave Rogers]

Is LIHOIA pronounced like the town in California?

I thought it was the kind of tree the Keebler elves live in.

Dave

 

[niloroth]

first time i saw loose change, i remember thinking, this has to be BS. It was just a gut reaction, and since i like to go by more than a gut reaction, i started researching the facts and events. (real research, not the truther type of research involving just watching yet another CT video) I havn''t looked back since, and am constantly amazed at the lack of knowledge, logic and understanding from the truthers.

 

[Brainache]

first time i saw loose change, i remember thinking, this has to be BS. It was just a gut reaction, and since i like to go by more than a gut reaction, i started researching the facts and events. (real research, not the truther type of research involving just watching yet another CT video) I havn''t looked back since, and am constantly amazed at the lack of knowledge, logic and understanding from the truthers.

Yeah, right... You are obviously some kimd of agent, but because I'm too tired to deal with this I'm going tolsleepppp

 

[LashL]

Interesting thread, and poll results. Great idea, Dave.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

One day, back in 1999, or 2000, I was poking around the EZ-board site when I stumbled on a group devoted to debunking chemtrails. I had never heard of them before. I quickly figured out that the chemtrail claims were garbage and have been happily battling woo ever since.

ETA: I voted for Planet X. Nancy Leider is by far the wackiest of the wack jobs out there.

 

[Diagoras]

Used to be a Truther, got cured...