perhaps not everything is lost for astrology

[Tristan Chi]

OK, how is this for educational exchange? :

Please tell me the rationale behind the different ascribed properties of the different planets, e.g. Mars - Physical Energy and Passion, Saturn - Discipline and Limitations etc.

To the layman, these seem extracted out of Uranus.

 

[Garrette]

these seem extracted out of Uranus.

In conjunction or retrograde?

 

[sthomson]

We don't like your attempts to blame the stars for what happens on earth, but many of us do appreciate mythology (which includes astrology).

That's an excellent way to put it! Aquila has admitted that astrology has no predictive application. At best, it has a descriptive application. When something happens, we can look back and say, "Oh, Saturn was tritipple with Neptune, which explains why a Virgo won the Boston Marathon." However, that's not a helpful statement in that it doesn't allow us to take any knowledge forward to predict, say, who will win the Marathon next year. All it does is allow us to externally locate our blame on another source. It's not my fault the car broke down, it's the fact that Mars is *random planetary language*. We can let Greg off the hook for cheating on Lizzy, because Venus was in alignment when Greg was born - it's no wonder he sleeps around!

I don't mean to be harsh, but it seems almost like letting ourselves off the hook, you know?

 

[Madalch]

OK, how is this for educational exchange? :

Please tell me the rationale behind the different ascribed properties of the different planets, e.g. Mars - Physical Energy and Passion, Saturn - Discipline and Limitations etc.

To the layman, these seem extracted out of Uranus.

I think even I can do that- Mars is associated with physical energy and passion because it was named after the Roman god of war, who was both passionate and full of physical energy.

 

[Hokulele]

This is a really important point, so please don't ignore it or dodge it. Please answer directly: what do you think you would see if you read a chart for the wrong date? If the answer is "I would find correspondences", then astrology doesn't work. (Please answer: do you agree with this statement?) If the answer is, "no, the correspondences would not be as good if you got the date wrong", then astrology is testable. The test could be:

a) You read a short biography of an (unnamed) person.
b) We give you three (or more? or two?) birthdates, one real and two fake.
c) You "do your thing" looking for correspondences between the birthdates and the biography.
d) You tell us which birthdate has "real-looking" correspondences and which ones look wrong.

I'm happy to type up some short bios of minor historical figures, if you'd like to attempt this test.

You know ben m, that actually sounds like kind of a fun test. Although it would be just for fun, if you wouldn't mind typing up the bios I might take a crack at picking dates with the justifications. No more than four bios please, I tend to have a bit of an addictive personality and would hate to spend more than a day at this. To make the date picking part more challenging, you can list 10 potential dates for each bio, as some may be able to be discarded immediately.

Mind you, I don't think I would do any better than random chance, but if people want to see how standard European astrology would tackle this, I'm game to play. You can pass the bios on to ChristineR or drkitten (if they are interested) as they are both pretty savvy about looking for unintended hints. They may have better suggestions on how this could be tightened up, as I would suggest you do not take my word that I wouldn't cheat. (I wouldn't, but to make things fair, it would be best if I couldn't.)

You can respond here or via PM.

 

[Madalch]

Double post. It must be because the moon was in the house of the rising sun.

 

[Aquila]

If I propose a discipline called JellyBeanology based on the position of the loose Jelly Beans in my desk drawer, then that discipline is based on something observable. That is a far cry from saying that the alleged link between the Jelly Beans and someone's life is observable; it isn't.

I agree. We are talking about oracles here (like the I Ching or tea-leaves), and I have no idea how they "work", only to say that according to astrological/kaballistic theory, everything is connected on the "sub-conscious" plane. The positions of the jelly beans has a correlation with something in your life at the moment that you open the drawer and observe them. I wouldn't ask them anything important though.

Similarly, the link between astrology and someone's life is not observable, either.

Yes.

Both religion and astrology (which, if it is spiritual as you say, is akin to religion) seem to be without evidence.

Yes.

 

[Tristan Chi]

I think even I can do that- Mars is associated with physical energy and passion because it was named after the Roman god of war, who was both passionate and full of physical energy.

But the naming of the planets is completely arbitrary (possibly with the exception of Mars). If Venus happened to be named Bugs Bunny, would it then be the planet of mindless annoyance instead of love?

 

[Aquila]

If it is calculated for 11am in Washington, D.C., then to whom does it apply? And where in Washington, D.C.? You have mentioned how precision matters. Washington, D.C. is a large place, sprawling across the map. Is it for Downtown D.C.? The Washington Monument? The Capitol building? The White House? The distances between them are not trivial, at least not according to your implications about the importance of precision.

As I said, the decision was arbitrary. I could have set the chart up for anywhere on earth and the position of the planets in the signs and their aspects to each other would still be the same. The only thing that would change would be the houses, and I'm not using the houses in this analysis. Also, sometimes astrology chart services don't let you calculate a chart without imputing both a time and place.

Or do you mean "preview" in a retroactive sense?

Yes.

 

[Aquila]

How, pray tell, does Au (from aurum) have anything to do with the sun? Or are you thinking of helium?

I think chemists originally chose this name because the sun is "golden" in color. The Sun is "king" of the planets because they all go round it, and kings wear crowns made out of gold (formerly the most precious metal, or king of the metals), a bit like the corona of the sun.

Listen up everyone, I have far more posts than I can possibly reply to, but I suggest that you visit some of the the resources on the internet which try to describe, for example the dilemma of free will and fate. Perhaps astrology will always be a mystery, and beyond my capacity to understand, let alone describe. I started off studying astrology because I was skeptical, and I still am, but the mystery keeps me interested.
I've really got to go now. Cheers, Aquila.

 

[Madalch]

But the naming of the planets is completely arbitrary (possibly with the exception of Mars). If Venus happened to be named Bugs Bunny, would it then be the planet of mindless annoyance instead of love?

Yep.

But the naming of the planets isn't -completely- arbitrary. Mercury goes around the fastest, so it was considered the messenger. Venus was particularly bright, and thus pretty. Mars is red (like blood and rusty swords), thus war. Saturn was the dimmest and slowest, so was the father (or grandfather) of the planets.

 

[Madalch]

I think chemists originally chose this name because the sun is "golden" in color. The Sun is "king" of the planets because they all go round it, and kings wear crowns made out of gold (formerly the most precious metal, or king of the metals), a bit like the corona of the sun.

No. "Aurum" is the Latin name for gold, which was used long before there were chemists, or even alchemists. There is an alchemical association between gold and the sun (and silver with the moon, and Saturn with lead, and venus with copper...), but this has nothing to do with the Latin name "aurum".

 

[catbasket]

Dictionary - aurum - 1 entry.
1. Noun - Gold.

And the connection with the Sun is?


ETA - beaten to it, as ever.

 

[Alice Shortcake]

Aquila, if I were you I'd invest in a dictionary of Greco-Roman mythology - that way you wouldn't make so many silly mistakes.

 

[Hokulele]

Aquila may also want to learn a bit about history. Especially in reference as to when people switched from a heliocentric to a geocentric understanding of the solar system.

 

[sthomson]

Aquila, if I were you I'd invest in a dictionary of Greco-Roman mythology - that way you wouldn't make so many silly mistakes.

Aquila may also want to learn a bit about history. Especially in reference as to when people switched from a heliocentric to a geocentric understanding of the solar system.

Hey, no one invited ME to condescension hour.

 

[Aquila]

No. "Aurum" is the Latin name for gold, which was used long before there were chemists, or even alchemists. There is an alchemical association between gold and the sun (and silver with the moon, and Saturn with lead, and venus with copper...), but this has nothing to do with the Latin name "aurum".

I always thought that chemisty had its roots in alchemy, and the old alchemical association between the Sun and gold (both termed Aurum), just stuck as the scientific name. At least this is what I remember learning when I was in school.

 

[Aquila]

Aquila may also want to learn a bit about history. Especially in reference as to when people switched from a heliocentric to a geocentric understanding of the solar system.

Wasn't that when Copernicus suggested it? And then Galileo?

Are you suggesting that knowing the date of the switch should affect my understanding of astrology?

 

[Aquila]

I don't think that I am going to convince anyone of the possible correlations between the planetary movements and events on earth - if you are not prepared to read about them yourselves. It took me all day just to try and present one chart and attempt to answer the criticisms, so it would be impossible to do any more.

It took me a long time to switch from being a complete skeptic (like you) to admitting that there might be something true about correlation in astrology, and that was without even looking at the Gauquelin research and the modern statistical results. Why don't you all visit www.astrodatabank.com and read the correlations that other people have seen in celebrity charts? (go to "view others' comments) They can't all be bending their accounts to fit the facts.

If, after a good read of these accounts, you still all think that astrology is bunk then I will stop trying to convince you otherwise.

 

[sthomson]

If, after a good read of these accounts, you still all think that astrology is bunk then I will stop trying to convince you otherwise.

Aquila, I know we're bombarding you with posts, but did you read my last question to you? I think the conversational disconnect may stem from the fact that some of us are looking for astrology to be predictive, while you think that astrology can only be used to analyze events that have already occurred. In other words, astrology for you is like a framework which you use to interpret past events or other people. Is that an accurate description of your position on astrology?