perhaps not everything is lost for astrology

[Madalch]

Actually, according to kaballistic philosophy, the position of the planets does affect the color of her paints!
...
What the artist is doing when she choses colors for her painting, is using intuition, which is really a combination of self-consciousness and sub-consciousness. The self-conscious mind is filtering and controlling the subconscious influences. It is only when we omit the self-conscious "censoring" of these sub-conscious influences that the yin or famale side of consciousness becomes unbalanced, as in psychism and mental illness.

So, if I were to show you a set of paintings, all done by the same artist, you (or a qualified astrologer) could match the painting to the date it was painted by effectively casting the painting's horoscope- see what stars were where when it was painted, and thus the colours that would have been chosen?

That would make a very interesting challenge.

 

[schlitt]

Skeptics need objective evidence. But maybe you are never going to get it.

Objective, verifiable evidence can never be obtained for something which does not exist.

If I claimed that I was able to turn wood into gold, just by my mind. I could try and justify it for as long as I wanted, with as many explanations as I could muster. Yet, I would never be able to come up with, real, objective, verifiable evidence. Why? Because the simple fact is, I cannot do what I claim.

Given the fact that I would not be able to provide you with verifiable evidence that I can turn wood into gold - Should you believe that I can?
No.

By the same token, astrology should not be believed unil it can be proven.

Requiring verifiable evidence for something is a necessity if you want to live your life in reality. Many people prefer to live their lives in delusion, believing in what brings them comfort, rather than accepting reality. That is fine, but they should understand that when they start to claim their delusion IS reality, they will be challenged by people who are not prepared to live in delusion.

 

[Aquila]

So, if I were to show you a set of paintings, all done by the same artist, you (or a qualified astrologer) could match the painting to the date it was painted by effectively casting the painting's horoscope- see what stars were where when it was painted, and thus the colours that would have been chosen?

That would make a very interesting challenge.

I was afraid that someone would ask something like this. The answer is no, for the reasons explained when addressing ChristineR's posts - the complexity of all the influences would be mind boggling - and, we'd have to see how they were influencing the painter's horoscope on that day. And even then, the influences of the planets, stars or whatever can manifest on several different levels - the intellectual, the emotional or the physical. It would be a practically impossible task.

The only information correlating astrology to art is that some placements of planets in certain signs are found more often in musicians and painters, while other placements are found more often in scientists. As an example, John Lennon, Bob Dylan and Paul Simon (born 1940 to 1941) all have the planets Saturn and Uranus in the sign Taurus, a sign which is traditionally associated with music, especially singing.

 

[Aquila]

Requiring verifiable evidence for something is a necessity if you want to live your life in reality. Many people prefer to live their lives in delusion, believing in what brings them comfort, rather than accepting reality. That is fine, but they should understand that when they start to claim their delusion IS reality, they will be challenged by people who are not prepared to live in delusion.

This is a very good point, and I agree. I see astrology as a theory or a philosophy which explains how consciousnes or "God:", if you like, works. But it is still only a theory. I test this theory out all the time by observing correlations, like the one mentioned above about musicians. An astrologer would look at hundreds of horoscopes of famous people and try to make mental correlations with these peopes' lives. Of course this is not science, but neither is it just accepting the theory without trying to prove it. Have you investigated the theory of astrology yourself? It's not fair to say that this is delusion if you haven't been open to hearing the "evidence", albeit unscientific evidence.

 

[schlitt]

This is a very good point, and I agree. I see astrology as a theory or a philosophy which explains how consciousnes or "God:", if you like, works. But it is still only a theory. I test this theory out all the time by observing correlations, like the one mentioned above about musicians. An astrologer would look at hundreds of horoscopes of famous people and try to make mental correlations with these peopes' lives. Of course this is not science, but neither is it just accepting the theory without trying to prove it. Have you investigated the theory of astrology yourself? It's not fair to say that this is delusion if you haven't been open to hearing the "evidence", albeit unscientific evidence.

I have made attempts to be convinced by astrology but I have found no concrete evidence of it's vailidity.
Instead what i have come across is a whole heap of evidence showing that is does not work.

These are the things which i have found;

-There is no scientific evidence or possible explanation for how it would work. If you have a demonstrateable way to show how distant planets can affect the chemicals in a human brain then i would like to see it.

-Studies have shown that astrological readings use the barnum effect to seem specific, but can in fact apply to anyone.

-Studies have shown that people of different star signs are evenly distributed among professions, and couples of supposedly compatible signs break up at the same rate as those with supposedly incompatible signs.

Aside from the research into documented study, there are a few things which indicate astrology as being rubbish to me, based on personal experience, one of which is, all of the people i know who believe in astrology are of low intellect.

It is quite simple really, if you are able to show verifiable evidence that astrology works, then i will believe you.

How about this as a simple test:
You ask me a set of questions, i will answer them honestly, and then you can tell me what star sign i am?

 

[Aquila]

Since we seem to be talking about astrology again, it's odd how that sexual revolution only applied to a relatively few number of people in a limited geographic sense. One would think that such a major conjunction would have a larger global effect. "Non-scientific correlation" indeed.

As mentioned above, planetary influences can manifest on either or all of several levels of conscousness - the intellectual, the emotional or the physical. Similarly, zodiac signs can have different, but related meaning, such as Virgo ruling health, work and service.
In those areas of earth where a sexual revolution could express itself, it came out, so to speak, along with the expansion of consciousness movement associated with drugs like L.S.D., and anti-war movement. These outer planets, Uranus and Pluto signalled big changes. However, in other areas of the planet the influence came out in other ways. For example while America was bombing Vietnam, people in the U.S. were demonstrating and burning draft cards, others were taking drugs, and the poor victims of napalm were suffering terrible consequences to their health.

Also, everyone born in the 60s has this conjunction in their horoscope, but not everyone will use it the same way. Some people are brilliant computer nerds who have revolutionized the everyday world of work, while others sadly have gotten AIDS. It really did have a global effect.

Hey guys, I really like talking about astrology but I am finding it difficult to find the time to answer all these posts. So I'm going to take a break. I'm sorry if I hijacked this thread from Proluna, and hope that she comes back.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

And, if pigs had wings, they still would be too heavy to fly.

 

[Garrette]

Also, everyone born in the 60s has this conjunction in their horoscope, but not everyone will use it the same way. Some people are brilliant computer nerds who have revolutionized the everyday world of work, while others sadly have gotten AIDS. It really did have a global effect.

I have to question now whether you are serious in your beliefs about astrology.

You are saying here that the same influence can result in someone (a) becoming a brilliant computer nerd or (b) getting AIDS.

And we are supposed to see that as some actual function of astrology? I don't buy it in the slightest.

Out of curiosity, though, what other outcomes can be attributed to that conjunction in the 60s? Being a child of that decade myself, I am most interested.

 

[ben m]

The only information correlating astrology to art is that some placements of planets in certain signs are found more often in musicians and painters, while other placements are found more often in scientists. As an example, John Lennon, Bob Dylan and Paul Simon (born 1940 to 1941) all have the planets Saturn and Uranus in the sign Taurus, a sign which is traditionally associated with music, especially singing.

Personally, I associate Saturn and Uranus in Taurus with corruption (Jimmy Hoffa, Randy "Duke" Cunningham, Dick Cheney) and with atheism (Richard Dawkins, Steven Jay Gould, Spalding Gray, and Barbara Ehrenreich). Why the heck not?

 

[FSM]

Good point ben m. I think Aquila has left the building for now but I believe he'll check back in eventually. In case he does maybe he'll finally get the point that many many others have tried to make:


Correlation

and

Causation


Presuming this:

Born 1940 to 1941 = artistic person a, b, c.

(and we'll just presume that there was a complete and total polling of every single human being on the planet born during that time and also that we have defined the terms 'scientist' and 'musician' effectively and that we've not allowed people to self report professions or interests...)

is the same thing as this:

http://www.venganza.org/images/spreadword/pchart1.jpg

I personally endorse becoming a pirate to end global warming.

 

[Bob Klase]

Could you please enlighten me as to just what a non scientific correlation is?

I believe it also goes by the name Confirmation Bias.

 

[Aquila]

Personally, I associate Saturn and Uranus in Taurus with corruption (Jimmy Hoffa, Randy "Duke" Cunningham, Dick Cheney) and with atheism (Richard Dawkins, Steven Jay Gould, Spalding Gray, and Barbara Ehrenreich). Why the heck not?

Taurus is also traditionally associated with money.

During the early 1940s, Uranus was in a "trine" relationship - 120 degrees with Neptune. First this trine was between Taurus and Virgo, Earth signs, and then, after 1942, between Gemini and Libra. So, for example, Jimi Hendrix, born 1943 would have it in the Air signs. Whatever signs it was in, it was this trine which astrologers relate to ease, harmony and talent. It combines the ingenuity, individuality of Uranus with the spirituality and imagination of Neptune.

One of the things that astrology cannot tell is how a person will use their birthchart - it is only a pattern that they were born with and everyone has free will to use that pattern how they like. If we look at Bob Dylan's birthchart (May 24 1941, 9.05pm, Duluth, Minnessota), we see that Saturn, Moon, Uranus and Jupiter are all trine Neptune in Virgo.

In Dick Cheney's chart (January 30, 1941, 7.30pm, Lincoln, Nebraska), we see that although Uranus was trine Neptune, his Jupiter and Saturn - conjunct in Taurus, are square his Sun in Aquarius and Pluto in Leo. This "T-square" would put a tremendous focus on power, control and secrecy (Pluto). It is in fixed signs, which are, well, very fixed and not very adaptable. I don't know about you, but I can almost see this energy when I see him on TV - he is absolutely solid, and many people thought that he was the real power in the previous Bush administration.

Richard Dawkins, (March 26, 1941, unknown birth time), has the Uranus-Neptune trine also trine Mars in Capricorn (the sign traditionally associated with science), making a Grand Earth Trine. This, to me, correlates beautifully with the way that he is able to explain scientific principles like evolution in an individual way (Uranus), and with great imagination (Neptune). But, his Sun (expression - where he "shines") and Venus (the way he expresses love) are opposite Neptune, pointing to a literal opposition from much of the public. This opposition is doubly reinforced by being conjunct, within 1-5 degrees, the Moon's North and South Nodes - these are not planets, but places in space used (mathematically) to predict eclipses, and astrologically they are associated with cultural trends and relationships with the public.

 

[Aquila]

Good point ben m. I think Aquila has left the building for now but I believe he'll check back in eventually. In case he does maybe he'll finally get the point that many many others have tried to make:...

He will not do anything of the sort, because he is a she.

Presuming this:
Born 1940 to 1941 = artistic person a, b, c.

You can presume anything you like, but that is not what I said.

 

[FSM]

What is it about the planetary positions at the time of birth that directly causes fate to lock in at that moment?

How does this:

we see that although Uranus was trine Neptune, his Jupiter and Saturn - conjunct in Taurus, are square his Sun in Aquarius and Pluto in Leo.

cause this to happen:

This "T-square" would put a tremendous focus on power, control and secrecy (Pluto). It is in fixed signs, which are, well, very fixed and not very adaptable.

And if the planets do not cause it to happen, then what is the process from the planets to human behavior? Or from planetary alignment to the forumlation of a predestined personality birth chart by which we can all use our free will to deviate from?

ETA: Sorry! She!

 

[Aquila]

You are saying here that the same influence can result in someone (a) becoming a brilliant computer nerd or (b) getting AIDS.

No. What I said was " Also, everyone born in the 60s has this conjunction in their horoscope, but not everyone will use it the same way. Some people are brilliant computer nerds who have revolutionized the everyday world of work, while others sadly have gotten AIDS. (Bolding added). Our birthcharts do not take away our free will. Many people with this conjunction (especially when it was opposite Saturn and Chiron) responded to its influence by having unsafe sex, which sadly lead to AIDS. But that does not mean that everyone has to use the energy that way.

Out of curiosity, though, what other outcomes can be attributed to that conjunction in the 60s? Being a child of that decade myself, I am most interested.

The Uranus-Pluto conjunction can come out in many ways, and you have complete freedom to express it however you like, but you might find that you have some natural "inherent" talents in the areas of either health or machinery which helps our everyday life. Virgo is also associated with writing, and the Uranus-Pluto conjunction gives both an ingenious (Uranus) and psychological and perhaps sexual (Pluto) influence.

Right now, many of the 60s generation are experiencing their "midlife transits" - this is when the outer planets Uranus, Neptune and Pluto all either square or oppose themselves. Many of you are going through major life changes - (a rather vague statement I know).

 

[Aquila]

I know that skeptics don't think much of correlation, but before I try to get on with my life, I would just like to mention one observation about the current astrological pattern;

The planet Saturn entered Tropical Virgo about a month ago - it will be there for about 2 and a half years. As mentioned already, Virgo is a sign that is strongly associated with health. In the old alchemical system, the planets are associated with metals, for example, Mars would be iron, Venus would be copper, Jupiter would be tin. The planet Saturn is associated with lead (as in the alchemical and spiritual aphorism "turning lead into gold".

Over the past month we've heard a lot about lead paint in children's toys imported from China, and the effect that this lead has on children's health.

We've also seen and heard news reports that some companies, in the U.S. anyway, are "cracking down" (Saturn is know as the "policeman" of planets) on their workers who are not healthy. They are raising their health insurance deductables if they are overweight. About 3 years ago, the planet Jupiter was in Virgo. Jupiter is much "kinder" than Saturn ,and is associated more with education and expansion, rather than policing and contraction. This period was when America and Europe first seemed to take a real interest in what we were giving our kids to eat at school. Cooks like Jamie Oliver led an outry against junk food in school and many American schools removed Coke machines from campuses.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Sorry to break my promise but I'm back.

I just spent a few minutes Googling for people born on the same date I was.

Results:

• a British polititian
• a German chemist
• a Jamaican reggae star
• a US sportsman

Which of us did not "use it the same way"?

If the horoscope matches the individual, well then Asstrology is true. If it does not, well then they did not follow their signs for, after all, they are only guidelines. Cann't lose can you?

 

[sthomson]

The planet Saturn entered Tropical Virgo about a month ago - it will be there for about 2 and a half years. ... Over the past month we've heard a lot about lead paint in children's toys imported from China, and the effect that this lead has on children's health.

Well, over the last TWO months. Google trends shows a spike in news stories in early August with a relatively steady decline since then.

I don't really understand the role of precision in astrology. When casting someone's birth chart, some astrologists have told me that their birthday must be known as precisely as possible (ignoring the fact that many doctors round the birth-date, or don't look at the clock for several minutes after the actual birth time). Yet, when pointing out correlations between planets and earthly effects, the effect may come days to months before or after the predicted time, and this is not a problem.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I know that skeptics don't think much of correlation, but before I try to get on with my life, I would just like to mention one observation about the current astrological pattern;

The planet Saturn entered Tropical Virgo about a month ago - it will be there for about 2 and a half years. As mentioned already, Virgo is a sign that is strongly associated with health. In the old alchemical system, the planets are associated with metals, for example, Mars would be iron, Venus would be copper, Jupiter would be tin. The planet Saturn is associated with lead (as in the alchemical and spiritual aphorism "turning lead into gold".

Over the past month we've heard a lot about lead paint in children's toys imported from China, and the effect that this lead has on children's health.

We've also seen and heard news reports that some companies, in the U.S. anyway, are "cracking down" (Saturn is know as the "policeman" of planets) on their workers who are not healthy. They are raising their health insurance deductables if they are overweight. About 3 years ago, the planet Jupiter was in Virgo. Jupiter is much "kinder" than Saturn ,and is associated more with education and expansion, rather than policing and contraction. This period was when America and Europe first seemed to take a real interest in what we were giving our kids to eat at school. Cooks like Jamie Oliver led an outry against junk food in school and many American schools removed Coke machines from campuses.

Well that proves it for me. Forget I said a skeptical word. Just cherry pick a few random events (US events -- there is no rest of the World is there?) and match them up with a few silly calculations. Can you not see idiotic this is?

Come on, make a prediction for the future. When will the next major event in the World happen and what will it be?

Oh. I've got one -- "Late in the year. Something to do with the weather".

 

[ben m]

I know that skeptics don't think much of correlation, but before I try to get on with my life, I would just like to mention one observation about the current astrological pattern;

OK, Aquila, I understand you're trying to cut back your postings, but please try one thing. It's a very important thought-experiment.

What would the world look like if astrology were wrong? Please just play along with this: it's a hypothesis, and we'll conduct thought-experiments in an imaginary world where this hypothesis is true.

This sort of experiment is useful in every field: "What would the world look like if, contra Freud, your adult subconscious had nothing to do with early infancy?" "... if light propagated through a luminiferous ether?" "... if there weren't four stages of grief?" "... if Koko the ape wasn't using language?" "... if mercury caused autism?" I can do this with all of my firmly-held beliefs: "What if global warming were a myth?" "What if Einstein was wrong?" "What if Iraq actually had WMD?" "What if Jesus was actually divine?" "What if the poor had no innate human worth?" etc.

If astrology were wrong ... what would the world look like?

• Any given birthdate, sign, conjunction, etc., would have a wide range of people born under it.
• Any given type of person (musicians, etc.) will be found to have been born under a wide range of signs.
• Attempts to make astrological predictions for scientifically unpredictable events (earthquakes, stock markets swings, hurricanes) will fail.
• Attempts to make astrological predictions for "news" events will be indistinguishable from ordinary, informed-guess predictions.
• "My" horoscope will look no more or less like me than any other horoscope, and no more or less like me than like any other person.
• People would go about their lives as usual.
• People who pay attention to their horoscopes would be no more successful than people who don't.

But that's what I think, not knowing anything about astrology from the inside. Aquila, what do you think the world would look like if the stars, planets, and constellations had nothing to do with the Earth? Please think about it and tell us.

Another useful question is "Is it possible that the world could be X and that people believe Y?" Yes, it is possible that Jesus was divine while that people believe he wasn't, and vice-versa ... you can see this if you understand how people convince themselves of their belief or disbelief. It's possible in some regimes that Einstein was wrong, but people believe he was right ... you can read about exactly what tests have been done and not. Is it possible that, IF astrology is wrong, people could convince themselves that it's right? How could that happen? Think about it. My ideas:

• People might use confirmation bias. Given dozens of possible signs, planets, houses, etc., to look at---even for one person---you can always find something which "agrees"; paying attention to this and ignoring the other data can make totally random data look meaningful
• People might make excuses. Given a bunch of apparently random data, a believer might introduce a randomizing factor which "explains" why the data don't look random ... like saying "but negative thoughts can cancel it" or whatever.
• People might cherry-pick. Given a thousand musicians, you can always find some whose birthday falls under any given sign; this can be mistaken for "evidence" that the sign "corresponds to" music. Given a thousand professions, you can always find some for whom an unusual number of members "agree" with their sign.

Is it possible that, IF astrology is right, people could convince themselves that it's wrong? Sure: the effects might be subtle and have complicated correlations. The effect might be like the EPR paradox, where a variable is random but a correlation between variables is nonrandom. Or people could be stubborn and closed-minded. Or the randomizing variable could be a really sneaky one. Or everyone who has tried to "test" astrology statistically has been a conspirator or a moron.