Nuclear Energy - I need to vent/rant

Belz:

Well there are some examples of chemical plant disasters that support your point: Bhopal (in India) would be one and Flixborough (in the UK) would be another....

Luddite:

The question of radioactive decay of spent fuel is quite complex because a whole slew of radioisotopes are present in the discharged fuel. But to claim irradiated nuclear fuel is "safe" after only 100 years is not true - plutonium and americium see to that! There are also the long-lived fission products Sr-90 (Half-life = 29 years) and Cs-137 (Half-life = 30 years) that are initially present at the 1000s of curies per gram level, as well as activation products from the fuel cladding ...... and remember 5 half-lives reduces the initial activity by only a factor of 32.
 
The question of radioactive decay of spent fuel is quite complex because a whole slew of radioisotopes are present in the discharged fuel. But to claim irradiated nuclear fuel is "safe" after only 100 years is not true - plutonium and americium see to that! There are also the long-lived fission products Sr-90 (Half-life = 29 years) and Cs-137 (Half-life = 30 years) that are initially present at the 1000s of curies per gram level, as well as activation products from the fuel cladding ...... and remember 5 half-lives reduces the initial activity by only a factor of 32.

Doctor,

I don't know if you've been following the whole thread so this might be redundant of me.

No one here has argued that spent fuel is safe after 100 years. What HAS been said is that after 40 years part of the spent fuel can be recycled, and the rest, some 30-40 tons per reactor per year, if I understand correctly, must be disposed of for thousands of years.
 
Apollo20 said:
But to claim irradiated nuclear fuel is "safe" after only 100 years is not true

Now I know no one has claimed that.

Invent strawmen on your own time, pal. Don't waste mine.

Apollo20 said:
I challenge any pro-nuker to tell me they would be happy to have a nuclear waste depository in their backyard!
Yes. I would.

You know why?

Because there is something going to happen in my back yard. It's called Global Warming. It's something that I alone can't stop, can't control, and something that will affect us all. Something that, if left unchecked for long enough, can mean very catastrophic consequences. You think Chernobyl was bad? Global warming is worse. But I can contribute, and part of my contribution is to side with nuclear here. If you have to ask me which is worse, CO2 gas or UO2 rods, I'll have to go with the former. An accident like Three Mile Island is local. An accident like Global Warming is global.

And yes, I know, we can set up wind mills and solar and hug the earth to give it more power. But to handle not only what Coal has, but also nuclear? Sorry, not buying it. It takes a lot more than just wanting it to happen, and it takes a lot more than massive government subsidies. Which come from somewhere, after all.

Oh, and by the way. If people are going to say that wind and solar can revolutionize the world? Then hell, replace hydroelectric too. That has the longest history of causing deaths and environmental damage. I've already posted a link where Brazil is standing to go through one hell of a damaged environment thanks to plans to set up their own dam.

One other thing: if you meant "my back yard" as in literally? Then yes. Still. Bunk that crap up, put it in my back yard. Just double check it before you do. I'm all for safety, and I'm willing to slap around people if they aren't safe about it. I'm willing to make a sacrifice to combat global warming.

And finally: About safety. I like how people say, "There are people that aren't safe about it! Therefore, we should scrap the entire plan because Chernobyl will happen again and the entirely nuclear power plant will go up like an atom bomb!!11111eleveneleven".

I'll have to agree with Obama's platform here.

Barack Obama's website said:
Safe and Secure Nuclear Energy: Nuclear power represents more than 70 percent of our non-carbon generated electricity. It is unlikely that we can meet our aggressive climate goals if we eliminate nuclear power from the table. However, there is no future for expanded nuclear without first addressing four key issues: public right-to-know, security of nuclear fuel and waste, waste storage, and proliferation. Barack Obama introduced legislation in the U.S. Senate to establish guidelines for tracking, controlling and accounting for spent fuel at nuclear power plants.

To prevent international nuclear material from falling into terrorist hands abroad, Obama worked closely with Sen. Dick Lugar (R -- IN) to strengthen international efforts to identify and stop the smuggling of weapons of mass destruction. As president, Obama will make safeguarding nuclear material both abroad and in the U.S. a top anti-terrorism priority.

Obama will also lead federal efforts to look for a safe, long-term disposal solution based on objective, scientific analysis. In the meantime, Obama will develop requirements to ensure that the waste stored at current reactor sites is contained using the most advanced dry-cask storage technology available. Barack Obama believes that Yucca Mountain is not an option. Our government has spent billions of dollars on Yucca Mountain, and yet there are still significant questions about whether nuclear waste can be safely stored there.

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/energy/

He recognizes safety concerns, but doesn't shrink away like a weasel about it.

Newsflash: If you're going to say that people can't be safe because something might be dangerous, then congratulations. You just wipe out every chemical factory and mining operation on the planet. You also just wiped out a good deal of modern society.

After all, someone might not be safe with airplanes. You sure you want to take a chance on your next flight? We should wipe out all the airports. Yeah, sure, they're supposed to be safe... except for all the airplane crashes. And all the times minor crap happens, like depressurization. You sure we should take that risk?
 
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I challenge any pro-nuker to tell me they would be happy to have a nuclear waste depository in their backyard!

The whole “would you want it in your backyard” is one of the worst arguments I’ve ever heard.

There is nothing wrong with wanting access to a product without having to directly deal with the downsides of its production or use. The proof of this is that we do it every day with most products we deal with and most technology we readily accept. Is it wrong to want access to gasoline without wanting an oil well or refinery in your backyard? Is it wrong to take advantage of x-rays while not wanting old x-ray machines stored in your backyard? Is it wrong to support the use of solar PV cells while not wanting the toxic waste that results from their production stored in your backyard?

The answer to all of these, and the corresponding question about nuclear power and nuclear waste, is no. The reason such positions are acceptable is because the question does not reflect reality -- it is a strawman argument because nobody is advocating the consequences that the questions imply (unless, in the case of nuclear, you assume people’s “backyards” are 160 miles in diameter). Nobody wants to build refineries, dispose of old x-ray machines, bury PV-related toxic waste, or store spent nuclear in anybody’s backyard because we don’t have to. So the "store it in your backyard" approach is just more scare tactics.

That having been said, I would have no problem with it.
 
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Sure. Just give me a geiger counter.

ETA: I'd rather a nuke plant than a chemical one.


You have made a very good point which I have tried to make many times before. With a few exceptions of very low energy particle emitters, radioactive material is extremely easy to detect EXTREMELY. So easy it can be detected on levels way way way below dangerous or even considered significant. A geiger counter can be had for less than $100 and will EASILY tell you even a small amount of radiation abnormally concentrated above normal.

A spectrometer that just about fits in your pocket can give you an instantaneous identification of that radiation as being something like natural thorium deposits or an unusual synthetic isotope not found in nature. Even a very modest laboratory can detect radioactive material to a high degree of accuracy.

That is the big problem which I have with a lot of the anti-nuclear projects like "The Toothfairy Project" which has already made a conclusion before it started or various far out methods of measuring the possible increase in cancer rates in populations who eat a lot of fish which spwaned in an area in the same title estuary as a nuclear plant.

There are done in such a round-a-bout way simply grabbing at straws to try to find some coincidental factor or just to try to come up with their preexisting conclusion.

If the plant is leaking some signifficant amounts of radiation, I can tell you in five minutes with a simple sweep. Even if it's leaking tiny amounts, that can be easily checked for with a brutally simple sampling station. If it's made it's way into the enviornment or drinking water or condenser discharge that is zero problem to verify. It can't be hidden by the big corporations. Just buy a surplus gieger counter on ebay for $40 if you don't believe me. (But for christ sake read the manual and don't flip out when it makes a single tick here and there)


The fact is radiation is by far the easiest contaminant to test for... far and away...


Now I've got a question: If there's a leak in an industrial system, or they think there might be, or just want to check for one, in something like an oil pipe line or a chemical storage tank.... What might they add to it to make the process of tracking down any stray leaks or losses super easy instead of nearly impossible?

I'll give you a clue. It's the same method used by scientists if they're trying to figure out where a drug or substance of some sort is accumulating, being broken down or migrating in an organism or some other system and do so easily so that they don't have to even be invasive....
 
Actually, if my back yard were over the right sort of geologic structure, and you promised not to do blasting at night, you could make the shaft in my back yard, no problem! I'd only charge a reasonable rent.

I shouldn't tell you about all the radioactive things I've collected though; A depleted uranium round (sans cartridge), a small bottle of radium paint from the 1920s, tritium illumination capsules. The local observatory has a 1905 (or 1915? Not sure...) Radium Star Atlas, but that isn't surprising as it was the Elgin Watch Co. observatory and at that time radium was heavily used by the watch company.
 
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Well, before you begin, perhaps we should explore precisely what we're talking about when we talk about nuclear fuel, when it's put in the reactor, when the reactor is running, and when it's taken out.

Nuclear fuel rods for a civilian reactor are enriched to about 5% U-235; the remainder of 95% is U-238, not U-234 (except in vanishingly small amounts). Natural uranium is about 99.3% U-238, 0.7% U-235, and an even smaller amount of U-234 (the enrichment processes, both gaseous diffusion and centrifugal enrichment, favor light isotopes, so both U-234 and U-235 are enriched).

The U-235 (5%) does all the fissioning (except for the very occasional U-234 or U-238 fission; this has a very much longer half-life than radioactive decay of either, however, so only a truly astronomically small fraction of the U-234 and U-238 undergoes fission). As the fuel is used, the U-235 undergoes fission; this results in likely radioactive fission products. The U-238 can absorb neutrons and the newly-formed U-239 will quickly decay to neptunium-239, and then to plutonium-239.

Since plutonium-239 is fissile, like U-235, some of it will undergo fission in the storm of neutrons inside the reactor, forming more fission products; however, this is not a majority process. The majority process is the fission of U-235. That's because the neutrons that are best at being absorbed by U-238 to form Pu-239 aren't the same energy as the neutrons that are best at being absorbed by U-235 and causing it to fission. The structure of the reactor is designed to maximize power, and therefore to moderate the neutrons so that they are the kind that cause the most U-235 fissioning, not the kind that convert U-238 to Pu-239; it's possible to make a reactor that makes neutrons that are the right energy to make Pu-239, of course, and this is called a "breeder" because it makes Pu-239. And, of course, the reason you do is because those neutrons are also not the right energy to cause Pu-239 fission; sure, it happens, but again, that's not the majority process, and that's controlled by the moderation.

So what we've got when we start is mostly U-238, with one atom in 20 being U-235, and one in a few thousand being U-234. As it's bombarded with neutrons, the U-235 fissions a lot, the U-238 is occasionally converted to Pu-239, the Pu-239 fissions sometimes, the U-234 is very occasionally converted to U-235, and occasionally a fission product (which was likely already radioactive) is converted to another isotope by the neutrons. As time goes on, the amount of U-235 decreases. As it does so, the amount of fission going on drops; this means that the moderation must be adjusted to keep the reaction going on. There's another problem, too; these products are also very often neutron absorbers and as their concentration increases, they damp the reaction by eating neutrons. Eventually, no amount of moderation decrease can keep the reaction going; there are too few neutrons being made, and too many things absorbing them. By this time, the amount of U-235 has decreased to perhaps 1-2% (Hindmost could probably come up with that figure; I'm too lazy to hunt further for a reference, but it's not all that important). A few percent of the U-238 has converted to Pu-239, and some of the Pu-239 has fissioned. This has taken a decade or more.

What you've got is still well over 90% U-238. Of the remainder, a couple percent is U-235, and a couple percent is Pu-239. The remaining six or eight percent is fission products, of varying levels of activity; a couple percent of this is high activity nuclear waste. But the higher level activity it has, the faster it decays. The bulk of the material is U-238, which has a half-life of 4.5 billion years; in terms of radiation hazard, not much because it has such a long half-life. There are high-activity isotopes in it, but storage for a few decades reduces this to the point where it is very little more active than the U-238 already is anyway. That's because the concentration of highly active isotopes was already in the single digits, and they decay very quickly; that's what "high activity" means.

Now, I won't misrepresent this; it's still radioactive after it's done its decades cooling off. But handling it for a limited period would be unlikely to harm the average person. You wouldn't want to handle it with your bare hands for a period of weeks on end, but more because you'd be likely to ingest some than because of anything it might do to your hands. You wouldn't want to eat it much of it; uranium is a low energy alpha emitter, so your skin (as has already been pointed out) is sufficient to stop the radiation, but if you were to ingest it, it could be a problem later on; however, it's important to point out here that the hazard would be far more a chemical poisoning risk than anything to do with radiation. In amounts small enough not to cause heavy metal poisoning and kidney failure, it would not pose much of a radiation hazard. No increase in human cancer has ever been reported in the scientific and medical literature as a result of exposure to natural uranium, and after the high-level isotopes have decayed, the spent fuel rods are not a great deal different.

Now, those are the facts. Let's see how many of them you already knew.

Well, gee, I'm sure glad you validated that from your infinite wisdom. I have a question: where is all this U-234 coming from? It's only five thousandths of a percent in the first place, even after enrichment, and U-234 doesn't get made by likely interactions inside a reactor.

So? It still only decays at a rate so low that only one half of it has done so in the lifetime of the Earth. And I repeat, why do you keep talking about U-234?

But it STILL only happens to half the atoms in a sample in four and a half billion years. I repeat, so? The incidence of it is still low. Furthermore, you're still talking about U-234. Which you have not demonstrated is relevant to the conversation since it only represents five one-thousandths of a percent of enriched uranium, and five ten-thousandths of a percent of natural uranium. Where is all this U-234 coming from?

Why does it have to be held in a vault for hundreds of thousands of years? In a hundred years, it's no more radioactive than natural uranium. And in thirty, it's only barely so.

And ignoring the facts is hysteria.

Let's talk about reality. The problem here isn't with civilian waste. The problem is with military waste. Military reactors use highly enriched uranium, and can "burn" a great deal more U-235 because they have a great deal more in the first place. This results in a very high concentration of fission products, and those products are very "hot;" furthermore, they remain so for a much longer time. Thousands or tens of thousands of years is not an unreasonable time to discuss spent military fuel remaining very dangerous in radiological terms. But if civilian use becomes widespread, the waste that it makes remains much lower level, and is therefore much less of a disposal problem than military waste. So basically, what opponents of civilian nuclear power are doing is equating military waste with civilian waste and claiming they're the same thing; add a dose of hysteria over teh invisuble nucular cancer rays, and there you have it.

And why do military reactors use HEU? That would be because most military reactors are on ships and submarines and they have to carry the fuel; that means that the more enriched the fuel, the less weight they have to carry per unit power, and the faster they can go. Simple, easy, obvious.

All of this is information you could easily have found out for yourself; much of it is already available in Wikipedia. Try "nuclear fuel cycle" and "uranium" for highly relevant articles.

Speaking of straw men...

So again, what we have here is hysteria driven emotional rhetoric. You don't know the difference between U-234, U-235, and U-238; you don't know that military and civilian fuel are different; you don't know the relation between specific activity and half-life; you don't know the difference between a breeder and a power reactor; you don't know the civilian "use once" cycle; you don't know what an integral fast reactor is; you don't know that there is thousands of times more uranium in seawater than in all the deposits of natural uranium we have ever discovered; you don't know that natural uranium is insufficiently radioactive to cause a single known case of cancer documented in the scientific or medical literature; and you don't know enough math to understand why if one in four and a half billion uranium atoms decays in a year, it means that one atom in 142,009,200,000,000,000 decays every second.

Overall, I'd have to say you know little of physics, and less of nuclear engineering. Which means that your opinions are based, not on facts, but on emotion. Which is basically what I said before. I'm pretty certain that there's no point in moving on to economics until you demonstrate a much firmer grasp of physics. So I think I'll stop here and wait to see if you have learned anything before I waste any more time.
Okay, fellows, look at this message from Schneibster way back. I didn't misrepresent what he said. A number of posts defended this position as well.
 
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Actually, if my back yard were over the right sort of geologic structure, and you promised not to do blasting at night, you could make the shaft in my back yard, no problem! I'd only charge a reasonable rent.

I shouldn't tell you about all the radioactive things I've collected though; A depleted uranium round (sans cartridge), a small bottle of radium paint from the 1920s, tritium illumination capsules. The local observatory has a 1905 (or 1915? Not sure...) Radium Star Atlas, but that isn't surprising as it was the Elgin Watch Co. observatory and at that time radium was heavily used by the watch company.

Bottle of radium paint, eh? That's gotta be pretty damn hot. The actual paint was pretty radioactive but the actual amount on each hand is very low. When whole bottles show up they're often very hot and peg a good meter up close.

Actually what I've been trying to find for a while for my collection for some time is a plutonium sample. In the US, they never sold plutonium in consumer devices (except pacemakers), but in europe a few smoke detector companies used it in place of Am-241. Don't worry... same deal as the AM-241... IE: we're talking nanograms.

I think it would be bellow the exempt limits, but I'd have to double check. But if I could find one, it would be cool just because "plutonium" is so iconic. It's the one material that has never really been approved for any general market device. But again, I'd have to make sure it's bellow exempt limits.
 
Actually, if my back yard were over the right sort of geologic structure, and you promised not to do blasting at night, you could make the shaft in my back yard, no problem! I'd only charge a reasonable rent.

I shouldn't tell you about all the radioactive things I've collected though; A depleted uranium round (sans cartridge), a small bottle of radium paint from the 1920s, tritium illumination capsules. The local observatory has a 1905 (or 1915? Not sure...) Radium Star Atlas, but that isn't surprising as it was the Elgin Watch Co. observatory and at that time radium was heavily used by the watch company.

Hmmmmm, it seems your neighbors could use a scintillation counter or two....Ah, they can just avoid the glow.:p

Some radium watches had exposures that were quite high...I hope your paint is shielded.

glenn
 
Belz:

Well there are some examples of chemical plant disasters that support your point: Bhopal (in India) would be one and Flixborough (in the UK) would be another....

Luddite:

The question of radioactive decay of spent fuel is quite complex because a whole slew of radioisotopes are present in the discharged fuel. But to claim irradiated nuclear fuel is "safe" after only 100 years is not true - plutonium and americium see to that! There are also the long-lived fission products Sr-90 (Half-life = 29 years) and Cs-137 (Half-life = 30 years) that are initially present at the 1000s of curies per gram level, as well as activation products from the fuel cladding ...... and remember 5 half-lives reduces the initial activity by only a factor of 32.
Apollo, I know you're more familiar with the CANDUs, but it's my understanding that the spent fuel from reactors that use natural uranium produce more plutonium than standard light-water reactors. Is that correct? What about americium?

And is the amount of plutonium in spent fuel from light-water reactors so low as to be considered trivial?
 
Question for anyone.

After one half-life, does the lethal dose take twice as long?

For example, if something delivers a lethal dose after 5 minutes and has a half-life of 30 days, can we conclude that a month later, you'll get a lethal dose after 10 minutes? Or is it not that simple? Things are rarely that simple.
 
Question for anyone.

After one half-life, does the lethal dose take twice as long?

For example, if something delivers a lethal dose after 5 minutes and has a half-life of 30 days, can we conclude that a month later, you'll get a lethal dose after 10 minutes? Or is it not that simple? Things are rarely that simple.

Oh god not even close to that simple. First what the hell is the "lethal dose" do you mean the dose that if you stand next to it you'll drop to the ground and be dead almost immediately? That amount would be huge. Absolutely huge. Probably beyond what you could get from just decaying material. Maybe a powerful pulsed neutron reactor of some type.

Do you mean you mean "Will cause acute radiation sickness which could nearly assuredly result in short term death." There are examples of people getting massive doses that go beyond what is considered "survivable" and not actually dying for weeks.


There is no "lethal" dose per-se. There are dose rates that could make you relatively sick in short order. There are doses which you have less than a 50% chance of surviving past 24 hours.


Also you have to consider the conditions and such. How far you are from something and whatnot. You could have a sizable amount some of the most radioactive stuff known to man in your basement and spend a decent amount of time in your attic and not get a dangerous dose because of the inverse square law.

Neutron radiation is a bit different than gamma and the big thing is internal/exertnal dose.

Spent fuel poses zero radiation risk to those who are either a decent distance from it or have something between them. Lets say I'm standing at the edge of a pool, for example looking at a big bundle of spent fuel. It's all okay, it's under 20 feet of water. Now take away that water, and I'll be find if I step back by 80 feet or so. Or, I could just only stay there for a few seconds. Any of these ways work.


But there's another thing to consider. Spent fuel is like most radioactive stuff. Primarly you don't worry about being near it just because it's there.

I could be sitting right now with a big chunk of plutonium on the table next to me and as long as its solid and not giving off any dust i could breathe in, I'm fine, because it's nearly exclusively an alpha emitter. Now take that plutonium and lets say I eat a chunk. Well, if it's in the form of a plutonium-oxide ceramic I may be just fine. It'll just make it hurt a lot when I have that sucker come out the other end.. not cuz it;s radioactive but ya know... any solid chunk of anything...


Ah, but now the question is what happends if you have something like plutonium nitrate or something else that's water soluable and organicly reactive. Get that in your system and you're in trouble....
 
Oh god not even close to that simple. First what the hell is the "lethal dose" do you mean the dose that if you stand next to it you'll drop to the ground and be dead almost immediately? That amount would be huge. Absolutely huge. Probably beyond what you could get from just decaying material. Maybe a powerful pulsed neutron reactor of some type.

My understanding of the term "lethal dose" is that it means that 50% of the people who got that dose would die of causes attributable to the radiation. I'm prepared to stand corrected, but that's my understanding.

For the purposes of my question, assume that after the half-life you get the dose in the same way. Ie, eating it before and after the half-life is over, or inhaling it before and after the half-life is over, or standing next to it before and after. Ignore spent fuel. I mean, I'm very interested in spent fuel, but this is just a more general question about how radioactive decay works.

My question is does twice as much exposure after one half-life equal the same dose.
 
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Well I guess you could go with that. In any case, stuff doesn't even always get less radioactive as it decays. In the end, yes it will eventually become non-radioactive, given a long enough period of time, so in the long term it will become less and less radioactive.

But midterm that's not always what happens. If you have something like refined uranium or thorium, the longer you hold onto it the more radioactive it will get, because it acumulates daughter products which are considerably more powerful emitters of radiation then the original material.
 
That's interesting, because when I suggested that before, it was shot down. I was assured that radiation always went down. I assume though, that this is relatively short-lived? Any particularly awful daughter products will tend to disappear rather quickly? And the long-lived products will prevail?
 
Question for anyone.

After one half-life, does the lethal dose take twice as long?

For example, if something delivers a lethal dose after 5 minutes and has a half-life of 30 days, can we conclude that a month later, you'll get a lethal dose after 10 minutes? Or is it not that simple? Things are rarely that simple.

Based on what you said, yes, that particular isotope would kill someone in 10 minutes...however....

Whether radiation is lethal or not depends on the type of radiation as well as the amount. In general, gamma rays are of the greatest concern since they are the most penetrating and can kill at a distance. Beta and alpha radiation are really only internal dose issues. Beta have a range of about 1 meter in air, but ionize quite a bit. Alphas can't get through the skin, but really ionize what they are going through. It is the ionization that is the problem as it knock electrons out of atoms and molecules...this changes the chemical nature in cells and kills them.

Carry around Sr90 might give you a beta burn on your skin, but it won't kill you since it doesn't emit gammas--swallow it and it becomes a real problem. A bit of Co-60 in your pocket would kill you quickly since it has high energy gammas and relatively high activity.

After a half life, the activity and dose rate of an individual isotope would be cut in half.

After 5 half lives, 97% of the activity is gone...after 10 the activity is down to 99.9% of the material is gone. So something like Sr90 would be gone in about 300 years.

Neutron radiation is particularly nasty and will kill a person quickly...but it is only found inside the containment building and if you happen to have an accelerator and can make some californium.

Radiation follows the inverse square law...so doubling your distance from the source decreases the dose by a factor of four.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_poisoning
this link will give the Lethal dose rates.

Don't worry, the cockroaches will survive...


glenn
 
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That's interesting, because when I suggested that before, it was shot down. I was assured that radiation always went down. I assume though, that this is relatively short-lived? Any particularly awful daughter products will tend to disappear rather quickly? And the long-lived products will prevail?

Decay chains for long lived isotopes will have different decay rates for different decay products...but, the general trend has to be down....no choice...it's essentially going for the least energy configuration.

Once you create something in a reactor or accelerator or supernova, then you've started new decay chains and radioactive products. Leave them along and the trend will always be down...exponentially down.

glenn
 
That's interesting, because when I suggested that before, it was shot down. I was assured that radiation always went down. I assume though, that this is relatively short-lived? Any particularly awful daughter products will tend to disappear rather quickly? And the long-lived products will prevail?

Um... not exactly. With some long-lived radioisotopes you may see an increase in the short term, but only in the very short term. That's an illusion caused by the generation of daughter products. This isnt really an issue with reactor products anyway.

But in any case, in the case of U-238 it may take a while to reach equilibrium, but in most cases, if there are radioactive daughters, it will reach equilibrium relatively fast. It would only be out from being somehow separated.

At that point it stabilizes and decays consistently. And no, the daughter products are always there because they're regenerated by the decay chain. So it reaches "equilibrium" once it all balances out and then you see the decay as it really is.

This is why lead-210 can be used as a good alpha and beta source, eventhough lead-210 doesn't produce any alphas by decay. It will be in equilibrium with the daughter Po-210 which is an alpha emitter and short lived.
 

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