What is good about religion?

[scotth]

Non-literally.

I guess that it means that faith in general is a good thing, and can prevent you from troubles.

I am not really ready to think that jesus might have been simply an idiot ; but my point is that it is not very probable that a person would say such a non-sensical thing. One should grant him the benefit of the doubt.

Concerning the red/bold text: Why? Why should we do that? The only possible reason that I can see is so that you can spare yourself abandoning an idea that you still desire to cling to. There is no good/logical/rational/ reason to do so.

The bible is historically almost complete bunk, as documented Israeli archaeologists. There is ZERO evidence (outside the bible) that there even was a real historical Jesus.

Show me something, anything, that would indicate that author of the bible had any inside information from the creator of the universe. Look, if you step back and look, it was obviously written by man, with all the failings one would expect of a document that codifies bronze and iron age superstitions and myths.

 

[JetLeg]

Concerning the red/bold text: Why? Why should we do that? The only possible reason that I can see is so that you can spare yourself abandoning an idea that you still desire to cling to. There is no good/logical/rational/ reason to do so.

I think that when discussing the philosophy of a certain person, not just jesus, in general, you should give him the benefit of the doubt that he is not a complete idiot.

When we discussed "faith can move mountains" - whenever a person says something like that, it is more sensible to think that he did not mean that literally. Unless we have evidence to the contrary. Had jesus advised one of his disciples to go and play with snakes, or to move mountains for the roman government, it would be a good reason to assume that he did mean that literally.

As to your other questions - and what if it is an assumption taken on faith??

 

[scotth]

I think that when discussing the philosophy of a certain person, not just jesus, in general, you should give him the benefit of the doubt that he is not a complete idiot.

When we discussed "faith can move mountains" - whenever a person says something like that, it is more sensible to think that he did not mean that literally. Unless we have evidence to the contrary. Had jesus advised one of his disciples to go and play with snakes, or to move mountains for the roman government, it would be a good reason to assume that he did mean that literally.

As to your other questions - and what if it is an assumption taken on faith??

I've already quoted every one of these to you in a previous thread:

Mark 11:24, Jesus says, "Whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours,"

Matthew 17:20, Jesus says, "For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you."

In Matthew 21:21 Jesus says: "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

John 14:12-14 Jesus says: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it."
In James 5:15-16 Jesus says: "And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. "

Mark 9:23 "All things are possible to him who believes. "

Luke 1:37 "For with God nothing will be impossible."

Matthew 18:19 Jesus says: "Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

Notice the bold-ed sections.... those DIRECTLY contradict your assertion that these passages are to be taken in any other way that literally. Jesus's own words contradict you, repeatedly.

Please consult the surrounding texts of each quote and provide me with even the tiniest suggestion that you are correct about these not being meant literally. I assure the evidence you seek does not exist.

You retreat into the 'metaphor' or 'it needs interpretation' camp, but the bible just doesn't support it. Read what Jesus actually says and repeat again, "you should give him the benefit of the doubt that he is not a complete idiot"

Three of those statements clearly contain explicit wording that indicate he means to be taken literally. Stop wasting our time with your backpedaling.

 

[scotth]

A straw man fallacy is when someone constructs a weak version of someone else's argument such that they can easily demolish it.

What is called when someone does just the opposite? What is it called when someone's actual argument really is a straw man, but the person tries to distance themselves from it with ploys like 'it is only a metaphor' or 'it needs interpretation'?

 

[JetLeg]

Matthew 17:20, Jesus says, "For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you."

The bolded part I think stands as a rhethorical way of speech.

1) Again, mountains don't move because of faith. Easy to check. If he had meant that literally, then one of his disciples could come, check this, and then denounce him as a fraud because he lied. So, if he didn't want to be denounced as fraud, he should have meant it literally.


2) Again, (*) If he had meant that literally, he was a jerk. (*) He was not. Therefore, he did not mean that literally.

 

[scotth]

The bolded part I think stands as a rhethorical way of speech.

1) Again, mountains don't move because of faith. Easy to check. If he had meant that literally, then one of his disciples could come, check this, and then denounce him as a fraud because he lied. So, if he didn't want to be denounced as fraud, he should have meant it literally.


2) Again, (*) If he had meant that literally, he was a jerk. (*) He was not. Therefore, he did not mean that literally.

Your understanding flies in the face of that of almost all other speakers of English. Even the other people arguing your side of the case don't believe this or agree with you.

He is basically saying, "I really mean it....." and you are claiming that means, "I'm only kidding, don't take this serious...." By what twisted logic do you think you can take Jesus to mean EXACTLY the opposite of what he specifically says. This point effectively ends any arguing with you. Go back and read text surround my quotations (I've include the chapter/verse so they are easy to look up) and quote ANYTHING that supports your reading of this. You are completely abandoning the meaning of language.

ETA: In case you don't recognize them, I am quoting to you exactly the passages of the bible that believers quote to me to prove to me the awesome power of prayer. And my response to them, but check/look around you, the world does not work that way. You can't heal the sick, blah blah blah. They indicate they really believe they can. Millions upon millions of believers really believe all this, ESPECIALLY THIS PART.

 

[JetLeg]

Your understanding flies in the face of that of almost all other speakers of English. Even the other people arguing your side of the case don't believe this or agree with you.

He is basically saying, "I really mean it....." and you are claiming that means, "I'm only kidding, don't take this serious...." By what twisted logic do you think you can take Jesus to mean EXACTLY the opposite of what he specifically says. This point effectively ends any arguing with you. Go back and read text surround my quotations (I've include the chapter/verse so they are easy to look up) and quote ANYTHING that supports your reading of this. You are completely abandoning the meaning of language.

ETA: In case you don't recognize them, I am quoting to you exactly the passages of the bible that believers quote to me to prove to me the awesome power of prayer. And my response to them, but check/look around you, the world does not work that way. You can't heal the sick, blah blah blah. They indicate they really believe they can. Millions upon millions of believers really believe all this, ESPECIALLY THIS PART.

1) Nobody believes the part about moving mountains with your faith.

2) What is your explanation, if Jesus really meant this? He was barking mad? He wad delluded? Why did people not check this proposition, and declared him as a liar immediatly?

3)" Truly, truly, I say to you that if you have faith in the republican party, you will be able to move mountains with that faith." If some politician said that, would not you be able to assume that he doesn't mean that literally, but simply stresses the importance of the faith in the republican party?

 

[scotth]

1) Nobody believes the part about moving mountains with your faith.

2) What is your explanation, if Jesus really meant this? He was barking mad? He wad delluded? Why did people not check this proposition, and declared him as a liar immediatly?

3)" Truly, truly, I say to you that if you have faith in the republican party, you will be able to move mountains with that faith." If some politician said that, would not you be able to assume that he doesn't mean that literally, but simply stresses the importance of the faith in the republican party?

Yes!!! People in the past really did belief crap like this. People really believe stuff like this about people who are living TODAY.

My whole [rule 10]-ing point is that all through the bible a believer is asked to believe stuff that demonstratably false. This is one such case. If the bible is to be believed, Jesus went out of his way, on three seperate occasions to say 'I litereally mean this to be true', while explaining the awesome power of prayer.

The literal truth of those statements are being taught in nearly every christian church in this country, TODAY. I ask you, are the preachers in pulpits, and all the congregations barking mad? I say they must be to teach and believe garbage such as this. That is why I brought it up in the first place. I have a much easier time understanding how people in the pre-scientific past could have bought that balony, but what is the excuse fo the endless millions of Americans that believe that crap today?

I am not bringing to you some fringe belief. This is a CORE belief of Christians today. You are rejecting them as crazy. I agree!!!!!!

But don't try to argue the christian side of the case and say that these lines are just metaphor. The whole rest of 'your team' disagrees.

 

[JetLeg]

Yes!!! People in the past really did belief crap like this. People really believe stuff like this about people who are living TODAY.

My whole [rule 10]-ing point is that all through the bible a believer is asked to believe stuff that demonstratably false. This is one such case. If the bible is to be believed, Jesus went out of his way, on three seperate occasions to say 'I litereally mean this to be true', while explaining the awesome power of prayer.

The literal truth of those statements are being taught in nearly every christian church in this country, TODAY. I ask you, are the preachers in pulpits, and all the congregations barking mad? I say they must be to teach and believe garbage such as this. That is why I brought it up in the first place. I have a much easier time understanding how people in the pre-scientific past could have bought that balony, but what is the excuse fo the endless millions of Americans that believe that crap today?

I am not bringing to you some fringe belief. This is a CORE belief of Christians today. You are rejecting them as crazy. I agree!!!!!!

But don't try to argue the christian side of the case and say that these lines are just metaphor. The whole rest of 'your team' disagrees.

Who has ever believed that faith moves mountains literally? Do they try to use it instead of buldozers?

 

[scotth]

Who has ever believed that faith moves mountains literally? Do they try to use it instead of buldozers?

Millions of people say they believe it. Millions. I have to take them at their word on that one. Obviously, they couldn't have really tested it and still believed in it. Well, I guess not obviously. People think they've healed others through the power of prayer, all the time. Admittedly, the proof of that is far less definitive (non existant in my opinion).

But when really cornered on the very question you ask, believers tend to fall back into quivering pile of rationalizations. Among them, these excuses are common:
Its not part of God's plan.
God always answers prayers, but sometimes the answer is no (apparent always when asking for a mountain to be moved).
Jesus didn't say it would happen right away.
Its all mysterious and we'll never understand it.


You seem to have a hard time believing it, but here in Texas I am often confronted with people trying to convince me of the power of prayer. They bring up exactly the bible quotes that I've presented to you (apparently to convince me?!?!?). I ask very similar questions and express complete incredulity. The best answers I've gotten where those expressing the view that reason/logic/education are the enemy of god and faith. That I should quit thinking and just believe and that was the way to salvation.

May I ask what church you went to that does not teach the power of prayer?

 

[Beth]

A straw man fallacy is when someone constructs a weak version of someone else's argument such that they can easily demolish it.

Like this one on the belief that faith can move mountains?

The literal truth of those statements are being taught in nearly every christian church in this country, TODAY. I ask you, are the preachers in pulpits, and all the congregations barking mad? I say they must be to teach and believe garbage such as this. That is why I brought it up in the first place. I have a much easier time understanding how people in the pre-scientific past could have bought that balony, but what is the excuse fo the endless millions of Americans that believe that crap today?

I am not bringing to you some fringe belief. This is a CORE belief of Christians today. You are rejecting them as crazy. I agree!!!!!!

You say millions of Christians today believe this way, but none of the many Christians I know believe that. Not one. I was raised in a fundamentalist church and heard more than one sermon on this verse in my youth. Despite the fact that they believed the bible to be literally true in regards to the age of the earth, etc., they never believed that this particular verse was to be taken literally. It was metaphorical for faith being able to accomplish the seemingly impossible.

 

[scotth]

Like this one on the belief that faith can move mountains?


You say millions of Christians today believe this way, but none of the many Christians I know believe that. Not one. I was raised in a fundamentalist church and heard more than one sermon on this verse in my youth. Despite the fact that they believed the bible to be literally true in regards to the age of the earth, etc., they never believed that this particular verse was to be taken literally. It was metaphorical for faith being able to accomplish the seemingly impossible.

Have you asked them if they believe this? Or do you just assume that they do not?

Evangelicals (who I live among every day in Texas and who I was raised around in Indiana) certainly do believe it. They are vocal about it. It is in the pamphlets they leave in the restrooms and other public spaces. Evangelicals really push 3 messages, salvation through the belief in Christ, the power of prayer, most of life's pleasures are evil. When they speak of the power of prayer, even if they aren't harping on literally moving mountains, they always make claims about reality that are provably false. Maybe not as instantly as moving mountains bit, but what does it matter? The hold up those very verses of scripture to support their position.

 

[Beth]

Have you asked them if they believe this? Or do you just assume that they do not?

Evangelicals (who I live among every day in Texas and who I was raised around in Indiana) certainly do believe it. They are vocal about it. It is in the pamphlets they leave in the restrooms and other public spaces. Evangelicals really push 3 messages, salvation through the belief in Christ, the power of prayer, most of life's pleasures are evil. When they speak of the power of prayer, even if they aren't harping on literally moving mountains, they always make claims about reality that are provably false. Maybe not as instantly as moving mountains bit, but what does it matter? The hold up those very verses of scripture to support their position.

Bolding mine. It matters in that you have constructed a straw man arguement. Deal with what they are actually claiming, not some distorted version you think they ought to believe in.

 

[scotth]

Bolding mine. It matters in that you have constructed a straw man arguement. Deal with what they are actually claiming, not some distorted version you think they ought to believe in.

Get this through your skull, I am word or word repeating THEIR argument. If there is a strawman, it is of their creation.

ETA: I am presented with EXACTLY those bits of scripture and told it supports their position on the awesome power of prayer.

 

[Beth]

Get this through your skull, I am word or word repeating THEIR argument. If there is a strawman, it is of their creation.

ETA: I am presented with EXACTLY those bits of scripture and told it supports their position on the awesome power of prayer.

Right, but they don't expect mountains to get up and move around now do they? Yet that is what you are claiming not just the Texas fundamentalists you know, but the majority of Christians in this country believe. No need to get angry at me because I don't buy your strawman argument.

 

[scotth]

Right, but they don't expect mountains to get up and move around now do they? Yet that is what you are claiming not just the Texas fundamentalists you know, but the majority of Christians in this country believe. No need to get angry at me because I don't buy your strawman argument.

I am telling you plain and simple.... They say they believe it. Who am I to say they don't.

ETA: I do not deny that there are millions of moderate believers around the country who have a great many (biblically) unjustified differences between what they believe and what the bible actually says. But, I've read the bible, god is not a moderate. I far prefer moderates, I just point out that their position is untenable biblically.

 

[six7s]

Look, the bible is chock full of assertions that are obviously false after a simple comparison with reality. This is because it was written by ignorant humans of ages long past.

And, today, selectively read by ignorant, cherry-picking, humans, who - all too often - are evidently capable of applying their own brand of logic in order to selectively reject ALL myth-based philosophies EXCEPT the one that suits them...

2) What is your explanation, if Jesus really meant this [moving mountains with faith]? He was barking mad? He wad delluded? Why did people not check this proposition, and declared him as a liar immediatly?

Who says that people did not check and declare him to be a liar... to be nailed to a cross and left to die... or is that just another example of rhetoric?

 

[six7s]

First, if you don't interpret it "literally", than how exactly do you interpret it?

Non-literally.

I guess that it means that faith in general is a good thing, and can prevent you from troubles.

Huh? Is this an example of what is meant by a 'leap of faith'?

I am not really ready to think that jesus might have been simply an idiot ; but my point is that it is not very probable that a person would say such a non-sensical thing. One should grant him the benefit of the doubt.

I suggest you stop guessing and start thinking

NB: There is NO evidence that your messiah was anything other than a deluded hippy, who either said or has been attributed as the source of a great deal of nonsensical woo to support some fairly lame-ass ideas about how the worlds problems will disappear if we are nice to each other, advice that has not been followed going by the COUNTLESS religious wars that his disciples have waged in the subsequent 2000 years

Does anyone REALLY have any worthwhile answers to the OP?

 

[rocketdodger]

Does anyone REALLY have any worthwhile answers to the OP?

I just read through most of "Hominids" (hugo award winner) last night -- there is a pretty good whipping of religion in that book.

One interesting argument presented is that belief in an afterlife is likely destructive to morality. When one knows there will be no afterlife, the manner in which they treat others here and now becomes much more important.

The religious belief that good deeds will lead to heaven and bad to hell may at first seem like a decent way to get people to behave well. However, the additional idea of atonement ruins it -- if people think they can make up for bad deeds later and always get into heaven somehow, what is the point?

Religion amounts to system that attempts to control behavior by effectively issuing nothing more than warnings. Everything can be atoned for, so none of the punishments ever apply. I didn't realize that till now. What f---ing stupid system.

 

[Belz...]

Dodger, you've omitted that, in Christianity, mere belief is enough for salvation.

Doesn't that open a huge can of worms ?