Christianity's biggest mistake.

[cnorman18]

--

I call you to demonstrate that latter assertion with peer reviewed evidence from archaeology, classicists from the last thirty years or primary sources. I don't think you can. Yes I know it's all over the internet. It's still crap.

cj x

The idea of God coming to Earth to father a human child was a Greek idea, not a Jewish one (cf. Zeus and Hercules).

Also, both Osiris and Mithras were about dying and rising again long before Jesus got into the act.

Doesn't necessarily make either story false; some guy wrote a novel about the sinking of a huge ocean liner called the Titan long before 1912. The Titanic still insisted on actually, historically sinking.

Hey, some schnook named Gilgamesh stole a couple of bases on Noah, too, but we left him in the Bible.

 

[cj.23]

The idea of God coming to Earth to father a human child was a Greek idea, not a Jewish one (cf. Zeus and Hercules).

Indeed. However the Zeus legends are not about Virgin birth, but divine paternity. The mothers were not virgins, jokes about golden showers and the engendering of Perseus apart.

Also, both Osiris and Mithras were about dying and rising again long before Jesus got into the act.

Osiris died, and stayed dead. That was pretty much the point. Hence his depiction often as a mummy and underworld associations. Mithras never died and rose again - I've never found anyone who can cite a single primary reference? I spent several months earlier this year working on Mithraism, and found much of this stuff is complete rubbish.

Doesn't necessarily make either story false; some guy wrote a novel about the sinking of a huge ocean liner called the Titan long before 1912. The Titanic still insisted on actually, historically sinking.

Yep WT Stead I believe. Completely agree.

Hey, some schnook named Gilgamesh stole a couple of bases on Noah, too, but we left him in the Bible.

lol, yep, but as I said Genesis 1-12 is where the Hebrews carry out the real theological revolution. They took the old stuff, and put a fantastic new spin on it.

cj x

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

Indeed. However the Zeus legends are not about Virgin birth, but divine paternity. The mothers were not virgins, jokes about golden showers and the engendering of Perseus apart.

And as you mention Danae was a virgin. As supposedly was Semele -- mother of a dying and resurrected god. And Adonis born of Myrrh, and Attis born of Cybele.

Osiris died, and stayed dead. That was pretty much the point. Hence his depiction often as a mummy and underworld associations. Mithras never died and rose again - I've never found anyone who can cite a single primary reference? I spent several months earlier this year working on Mithraism, and found much of this stuff is complete rubbish.

The dying and rising god was a common theme in ancient mystery religions. Adonis and Attis were both killed and brought back from death. As was Dionysus (though to a much more limited degree -- basically burned from Semele's body to gestate in Zeus' thigh).

The Osiris myth is not as simple as you let on. Osiris was a fertility god after all. You can't have a vegetation god die and stay dead. He remained "dead" in a sense (as judge of the dead) but was also tied symbolically to Horus. Isis reassembled all his parts (except save one in one version of one of the myths) -- or she brings him back after Seth as a bull kills him or finds him encased in a tree in Byblos after Seth traps him in a coffin -- and breathed life back into him so that he and Isis could conceive Horus. Seth then killed him again (in some versions this is where Seth cuts Osiris into pieces) and Osiris becomes the god of the underworld. But Osiris is clearly tied to Horus as a reflection of a living part of him since cannot die completely as a fertility god.

Baal also died (he challenged Mot and was stuck in the land of the dead) but was brought back from the land of the dead by Anat.

Isis is another who went to the land of death and had to have her husband take her place so that she could return.

Then there's Persephone who returns each year from the land of the dead to her mother's delight.

The important issue is not that there were no other dying and rising gods -- there certainly were many examples of this -- but that the dying and rising god served a particular function in these mythologies. They were all vegetation/fertility gods. The function of Jesus in Christianity is different. But the form of the myth is the same.

The Roman mithraic cult concerned the progression of constellations in the night sky. There is no clear evidence of a dying and risen god in that cult.

 

[qayak]

Indeed. However the Zeus legends are not about Virgin birth, but divine paternity. The mothers were not virgins, jokes about golden showers and the engendering of Perseus apart.

Horus of Egypt, born Dec. 25, of a virgin, Eastern star, adorned by three kings, teacher at 12, baptised and started his ministry at 30, 12 diciples, crucified, buried for three days, resurrected.

Attis of Greece, born of a virgin, Dec. 25, crucified, dead for three days, resurrected.

Krishna of India, born of a virgin, star in the East, performed miracles, resurrected.

Dionysus of Greece, born of a virgin on Dec. 25, turned water into wine, resurrected.

And many more.

They are all sun gods which explains all the similarities.

 

[cj.23]

And as you mention Danae was a virgin. As supposedly was Semele -- mother of a dying and resurrected god. And Adonis born of Myrrh, and Attis born of Cybele.

But not virgins after the divine intercourse! That was a truly extraordinary (and ridiculed) claim.

The dying and rising god was a common theme in ancient mystery religions. Adonis and Attis were both killed and brought back from death.

Adonis came back to life? Not as far as I know. he was killed by a boar, his blood gave rise to flowers and he ended up in the underworld. The rebirth motif is pure Frazerian crap? Attis's blood gave birth to a pine tree. He never returned either. The Frazerian hypothesis that this was a vegetation seasonal god is belied by his retyurn as a coniferous rather than a deciduous tree!

As was Dionysus (though to a much more limited degree -- basically burned from Semele's body to gestate in Zeus' thigh).

Yep "Twice born"

The Osiris myth is not as simple as you let on. Osiris was a fertility god after all. You can't have a vegetation god die and stay dead. He remained "dead" in a sense (as judge of the dead) but was also tied symbolically to Horus.

Which Horus? I can never manage to find out which Horus is intended: Horus had so many associations y'see (well I guess you know - you clearly know your mythology very well indeed). I would have a thought a fertility God would have had the one bit Isis failed to find?

Baal also died (he challenged Mot and was stuck in the land of the dead) but was brought back from the land of the dead by Anat.

Which Baal? Again, this is very complex. Give em a source as i'm quite interested in Canaanite religion.

Isis is another who went to the land of death and had to have her husband take her place so that she could return.

Really? Interesting. What's the source? I don't doubt you it's just not something I know of, and i have written extensively on the mystery Cults, but am not as well versed in Egyptian mythology.

The important issue is not that there were no other dying and rising gods -- there certainly were many examples of this -- but that the dying and rising god served a particular function in these mythologies. They were all vegetation/fertility gods. The function of Jesus in Christianity is different. But the form of the myth is the same.

That was Sir James Frazer's thesis back in 1902 in The Golden Bough, but as any contemporary classicist will tell you it does real violence to the original mythologies in an attempt to force them to fit this pattern. The idea is extremely popular, but not held by modern scholars. See Hutton in the The Triumph of the Moon for a recent non-technical discussion in an excellent book.

The Roman mithraic cult concerned the progression of constellations in the night sky. There is no clear evidence of a dying and risen god in that cult.

Ulansey et al. Maybe. I would say it is a convincing hypothesis, but not really demonstrated to proof level. I have not managed to get a reply from David Ulansey, but his book is excellent and I think he is on to something. I would recommend Clauss' Roman Cult of Mithras for anothe rinteresting recent book on Mithraic Studies.

Ichneumonwasp you know your stuff, and it's a pleasure to discuss these things with you.

cheers
cj x

 

[qayak]

The brightest star in the sky is Sirius. The three brightest stars on Orion's belt are known as The Three Kings. On December 25, the Three Kings follow the Eastern star and all point to the place the sun will rise.

In other words, the Three Kings follow the Eastern star in order to locate the birth of the sun on December 25.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeZB2EsPqGE]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmzailhVl-U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6UdQxt7b24

 

[cj.23]

Horus of Egypt, born Dec. 25, of a virgin, Eastern star, adorned by three kings, teacher at 12, baptised and started his ministry at 30, 12 diciples, crucified, buried for three days, resurrected.

Attis of Greece, born of a virgin, Dec. 25, crucified, dead for three days, resurrected.

Krishna of India, born of a virgin, star in the East, performed miracles, resurrected.

Dionysus of Greece, born of a virgin on Dec. 25, turned water into wine, resurrected.

And many more.

They are all sun gods which explains all the similarities.

Except none of it is true. Find me a single primary source linking those deities with December 25th. Find me a primary source which says Attis was crucified. Or any of the rest of it. It's all nonsense. I know you can find loads of websites asserting this stuff, but that does not make it true. And it is n't. Just try wikipedia on those deities you mention.

In fact there is no-pre Christian adoption of December 25th evidence for any festival on that day, which I find peculiar as it was widely considered to be the solstice in antiquity. Such festivals are in fact conspicous by their absence. The earliest reference is to natali invictus in the Chronography of 354CE, which some think may be a Sol Invictus festival, but that is unlikely as it was celebrated in October and late Summer (biannually) - but the Chronography also lists it as the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. The date of the Christian festival in the west was popularised by a book in 221CE, 120+ years before.

This pagan copycat stuff is largely rubbish. Check the primary sources!

cj x

cj x

 

[cj.23]

The brightest star in the sky is Sirius. The three brightest stars on Orion's belt are known as The Three Kings. On December 25, the Three Kings follow the Eastern star and all point to the place the sun will rise.

In other words, the Three Kings follow the Eastern star in order to locate the birth of the sun on December 25.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeZB2EsPqGE

When did they become known as the Three Kings?

cj x

 

[qayak]

When did they become known as the Three Kings?

cj x

Long before Jesus was born.

 

[cj.23]

Long before Jesus was born.

Primary source? I'll believe you, but I need sources.

cj x

 

[qayak]

Except none of it is true. Find me a single primary source linking those deities with December 25th. Find me a primary source which says Attis was crucified. Or any of the rest of it. It's all nonsense. I know you can find loads of websites asserting this stuff, but that does not make it true. And it is n't. Just try wikipedia on those deities you mention.

In fact there is no-pre Christian adoption of December 25th evidence for any festival on that day, which I find peculiar as it was widely considered to be the solstice in antiquity. Such festivals are in fact conspicous by their absence. The earliest reference is to natali invictus in the Chronography of 354CE, which some think may be a Sol Invictus festival, but that is unlikely as it was celebrated in October and late Summer (biannually) - but the Chronography also lists it as the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. The date of the Christian festival in the west was popularised by a book in 221CE, 120+ years before.



This pagan copycat stuff is largely rubbish. Check the primary sources!

cj x

cj x

Really? I think you are wrong . . . almost positive actually.

Checked Wikipedia . . . yup, you're wrong.

Ever notice how Horus is modelled after his father? In fact, some times he is said to be his own father. Ever notice how Jesus of the NT is modelled after Joseph of the OT? Ever notice how Jesus and his father are often said to be one and the same?

Ever notice how much Isis, the mother of Horus and Mary, the mother of Jesus have in common?

Jesus was simply the Gnostic sun god.

 

[AudioFreak]

Except none of it is true. Find me a single primary source linking those deities with December 25th. Find me a primary source which says Attis was crucified. Or any of the rest of it. It's all nonsense. I know you can find loads of websites asserting this stuff, but that does not make it true. And it is n't. Just try wikipedia on those deities you mention.

In fact there is no-pre Christian adoption of December 25th evidence for any festival on that day, which I find peculiar as it was widely considered to be the solstice in antiquity. Such festivals are in fact conspicous by their absence. The earliest reference is to natali invictus in the Chronography of 354CE, which some think may be a Sol Invictus festival, but that is unlikely as it was celebrated in October and late Summer (biannually) - but the Chronography also lists it as the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. The date of the Christian festival in the west was popularised by a book in 221CE, 120+ years before.

This pagan copycat stuff is largely rubbish. Check the primary sources!

cj x

cj x

So if it's consensus among historians that Dec. 25th was not when Jesus was born, why bother celebrating it then? Why not on his actual birthday? What about the Christmas tree? Where the hell did that one come from?

 

[qayak]

So if it's consensus among historians that Dec. 25th was not when Jesus was born, why bother celebrating it then? Why not on his actual birthday? What about the Christmas tree? Where the hell did that one come from?

For six months the sun moves South until December 22 when it reaches its lowest point int he sky. Then for 3 days it remains at the same point. On December 25th the sun begins to move North again. This is said to be the birth of the sun.

December 22, the winter solstice is said to be the death oif the sun. December 25, is said to be the birth of the sun. The sun (Jesus/horus/Dionysus/etc.) dies, lies dead for three days and is resurrected.

Jesus is simply the Gnostic sun god modelled after may previous sun gods.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

And as you mention Danae was a virgin. As supposedly was Semele -- mother of a dying and resurrected god. And Adonis born of Myrrh, and Attis born of Cybele.

But not virgins after the divine intercourse! That was a truly extraordinary (and ridiculed) claim.

But only certain groups think that of Mary. Most do not hold to the doctrine at all.

Adonis came back to life? Not as far as I know. he was killed by a boar, his blood gave rise to flowers and he ended up in the underworld. The rebirth motif is pure Frazerian crap?

In some of the versions he returns for half of each year to be with Venus or Astarte depending on which mythic region under discussion.

Attis's blood gave birth to a pine tree. He never returned either. The Frazerian hypothesis that this was a vegetation seasonal god is belied by his retyurn as a coniferous rather than a deciduous tree!

In the Cybelean mystery religion, form what I recall, he was reborn since one of the rites was to mourn his death and then celebrate his rebirth. He was either gored by a boar in one version or castrated himself in another. One version underlies "The Golden Ass". Atargatis is supposed to be a version of Cybele, the Great Mother, though Apeulius was apparently a devotee of Isis -- he didn't portray the Atargatis followers very kindly.

While some versions have Attis only as a source of further life others seemed to have him reborn in the rites. I am not sure of the details if these were regional differences or what. Certainly in some of the rites pine trees were brought to the temple symbolizing him. It may be that some authors misidentified this as a rite of rebirth.

I am using a few different sources, some of which may not be entirely accurate. One is a series of lectures based off Robert Turcan's "The Cults of the Roman Empire" -- which I have not read myself. Another is one of those compendia that might not be too reliable -- "The Encyclopedia of Mythology"

Which Horus? I can never manage to find out which Horus is intended: Horus had so many associations y'see (well I guess you know - you clearly know your mythology very well indeed). I would have a thought a fertility God would have had the one bit Isis failed to find?

There is no such thing as "the Horus". There are many, many different versions of his myth. He probably began as a local sun deity and was incorporated into the Isis-Osiris myth.

Well, the one bit she failed to find supposedly explains the electric fish that swam about in the Nile. And it makes for a really weird regeneration myth since his member is the one missing piece that she has to fashion anew.

Which Baal? Again, this is very complex. Give em a source as i'm quite interested in Canaanite religion.

Ultimately like with Horus they are all the same god with all the many contradictions. The many Baal's of the Bible arise from the fact that Ba'al just meant 'god', as I'm sure you know. Let me see, IIRC the primary source for these myths is the "Epics of the gods", pieced together from the Ugarit tablets. I would have to look it up, though, to be sure.

Really? Interesting. What's the source? I don't doubt you it's just not something I know of, and i have written extensively on the mystery Cults, but am not as well versed in Egyptian mythology.

Whoops, did I say Isis? I meant to say Inanna. My mistake.

That was Sir James Frazer's thesis back in 1902 in The Golden Bough, but as any contemporary classicist will tell you it does real violence to the original mythologies in an attempt to force them to fit this pattern. The idea is extremely popular, but not held by modern scholars. See Hutton in the The Triumph of the Moon for a recent non-technical discussion in an excellent book.

Yep. But the myths are still the myths. The problem with Frazier was that he overdid it, much like Joseph Campbell does, trying to fit every every myth into his framework. And that he posited an actual ritual death for the king in most societies that the myths supposedly replayed. From what I know most scholars reject the over-arching plan and the death of the king motifs but have maintained the idea that the well identified dying and resurrected gods were fertility symbols. Persephone undoubtedly was. Dionysus was much more complex. Osiris and Attis clearly seemed to be.

Ulansey et al. Maybe. I would say it is a convincing hypothesis, but not really demonstrated to proof level. I have not managed to get a reply from David Ulansey, but his book is excellent and I think he is on to something. I would recommend Clauss' Roman Cult of Mithras for anothe rinteresting recent book on Mithraic Studies.

Ichneumonwasp you know your stuff, and it's a pleasure to discuss these things with you.

cheers
cj x

And may I return the compliment? I find myth fascinating.

 

[cj.23]

Ever notice how Horus is modelled after his father?

Which Horus? If you mean the later Horus which is identified with Osiris in the late Hellenic period, that post-dates the Christian mythos? I am not sure what you mean by this.

In fact, some times he is said to be his own father.

Nah, he is sometimes identified as Osiris: in other myths Osiris is apparently described as his father, and in many myths they have no relationship. Horus was represented at different times in different ways.

Ever notice how Jesus of the NT is modelled after Joseph of the OT?

Er, nope. Go on, enlighten me. One has a coat of many colours, is sold in to slavery by his brothers, and accused of adultery, rises to great power in Egypt, and the other --- does none of this! Where is the connection then?

Ever notice how Jesus and his father are often said to be one and the same?

You mean the doctrine of the Trinity?

Ever notice how much Isis, the mother of Horus and Mary, the mother of Jesus have in common?

Absolutely. Iconography and artistic depiction - the Christian depiction of Mary derived from the earlier artistic forms. Theologically? Nowt. Well unless you are going to quote Hislop's infamous The Two Babylons at me! I happen to be rather well read on these claims!

Jesus was simply the Gnostic sun god.

Got any primary sources for Gnostic sun worship? Any proof of gnosticism pre-dating Christianity actually?

cj x

 

[cj.23]

Ichneumonwasp cool, thanks for that. I'll hit my books in the morning I'm too tired now, and my area is rather later (1st century onwards really, with an interest in Middle Eastern Antiquity). Yeah, Baal just means Lord - I'm not convinced they were all the same, but I suppose it might be like the Virgin of Lourdes and the Virgin of Knock! I can check out the Mot reference, that sounds pretty solid definitely. The Inanna myth is one of my favourites - but when it comes to bodily resurrections we are really quite pushed. I can think of two actually - Zalmoxis (from Herodotus) and Tamnuz (I think) and even they are disputed, but I think they are sound, but neither seems to be a direct influence on Early Christianity. hence my comment right at the beginning about the influence of pagan culture, but not direct copycat as so often claimed.

I'm really wary of the Frazerian hypothesis, but the archetypes - yep. I'm no frothing fundie apologist. Chat tomorrow.

cj x

 

[qayak]

Er, nope. Go on, enlighten me. One has a coat of many colours, is sold in to slavery by his brothers, and accused of adultery, rises to great power in Egypt, and the other --- does none of this! Where is the connection then?

Joseph, miracle birth, has 12 brothers, his brother, Judah, suggests the sale of Joseph, sold for 30 pieces of silver, begins his work at age 30

Jesus, miracle birth, has 12 disciples, his disciple, Judas, suggests the sale of Jesus, sold for thirty pieces of silver, begins his work at age 30

Coincidence? I think not!

Oh yeah, there are no non-biblical records of either having ever existed.

 

[cj.23]

So if it's consensus among historians that Dec. 25th was not when Jesus was born, why bother celebrating it then? Why not on his actual birthday? What about the Christmas tree? Where the hell did that one come from?

Hi Audio Freak! The date was selected in the 3rd century, and only accepted by the Church much later. Christmas is celebrated on different dates by different Churches - hence the difference with the Russian Christmas for example. No one knows when he was born, and the Winter equinox was chosen it seems. The Christmas tree was a german custom which only becomes widespread as far as I know in the early 19th century.

Hope that helps!

cj x

 

[qayak]

Any proof of gnosticism pre-dating Christianity actually?

What is known now as christianity, with its current beliefs and books of the bible didn't come about for a long time after the Gnostic texts were written. All the books of the NT were Gnostic books and christianity stole some and left some out.

So yeah, there is plenty of proof.

 

[AudioFreak]

What about conceptual parallels between the Christian Trinity and the Hindu Trimūrti? While not as popular a concept among Hindus of 3-in-1 (they tend to lean toward one over the others), it still pre-dates Christianity.