What is good about religion?

[Skeptic Ginger]

One good thing about Christianity is that once a week a lot of christians clear the streets, shut up and do something in some building

Now now.... Some of my friends are Christians. They aren't all fundie types. I even have a few that I might be on the verge of convincing their beliefs are baseless. (Ooops, not supposed to admit I try to convert anyone.)

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I've always thought religion gave some people inspiration to do some nice art or stories. That's about it.

Ooooh! Religious art, I love it. I have tons of it all over the house.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Religion codified morals. That was useful a few thousand years ago.

Yeah, if you think it's a good thing they rid the world of those evil witches and burned scientists like Bruno at the stake.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Religion can help facilitate an individual's search of meaning, purpose, and ethics.

But that meaning, purpose and ethics are so often negative. Is the trade off really leaning toward the positive? I think the scales tip toward the negative.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Yes, rocketdodger, all religions are completely lacking in ethics. You've found them out. Well done.

Positive ethics are a myth if you just look at the Judeo-Christian religions. God is not love if you read what the Torah, Koran and Bible actually say. (Not to mention the claim the Christian God, "is a loving God." That is definitely a myth within a myth.)

Perhaps some of the Eastern religions like Hinduism and Buddhism differ but I tend to doubt it because the violence in religions stems from group behavior, 'us' against 'them'.

 

[articulett]

Given that Jesus is not around to tell us what he really meant, how can we make this determination?

I'll point out that this has been a topic of discussion for about two thousand years and it still hasn't been definitively resolved.

Jetlag will tell you!

And the Pope, Ted Haggard, Al Sharpton, Pat Robertson, Peter Pop-off, Richard Roberts, President Bush, DOC, XenonII, Rconk, The latest Mormon Prophet, William Dembski, Jessie Jackson, Ken Hamm, Kirk Cameron, Ray Comfort, Fred Phelps...

And the list goes on. If only they'd agree.

Christians aren't supposed to judge, but they sure are good at judging who is and isn't a real Christian... in fact they are some of the most judgmental people I know. Of course, most of the people I know, probably consider themselves Christians like Jetlag. But I'm not sure they'd want to claim Jetlag as one of their own.

 

[Apology]

I don't know how many times it has been explained to me, that redemption through Jesus was available to everyone. The main requirement to salvation was seeking a relationship with Jesus. Dallas/Ft Worth is full of churches that hand out tracts on this very point that end with the re-enforcing assertion that the most heinous killer, rapest, etc were still available to salvation if they genuinely accepted the redeeming power of Jesus before they died, even if happens as late as that walking to gallows so to speak, and then a list people who perform good works throughout their life, but believe some other doctrine, and they will certainly burn in hell. You don't have to be good, you just have to believe correctly.

Of course, I always thought..... now there is a doctrine for someone who wanted to do a lot of bad stuff and still feel they we going to heaven. Back to what you were saying, it seems to me that many, if not most, people who take their christianity seriously (and we have a ton of them around here, let me tall ya) would disagree with you. They would say that if Hitler accepted Jesus as his savior at the end of his life, heaven would be open to him.

Those sound like born-again or Pentecostal Christians. Not all Christians believe that being saved is all you need. A lot of Christians are strongly against the idea.

Hardly anyone takes Pentecostal/born again Christians seriously, not even other Christians. To say that all Christians believe this is painting Christianity with a very wide brush. It's akin to the Fundamentalist Christian assertation that all atheists are immoral.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Communion wafers are delicious.

I hope you are eating them out of the box. Communion is a germ spreading ritual.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I do think that religion teaches morality.

If morality is defined as 'good', you left off the im-.

"It teaches both", she said, shrinking that brush size.

 

[articulett]

Well, we have to do our best.

We have to think hard, and try to do our best. A person should try to understand what Jesus really meant. Then he could say that the persons who don't do that are not christian.

Just as we can define who is "A true newtonian" - someone that understands and propages the 3 laws of newton. At least we can try and do our best.

You suck at analogies. People aren't really running around calling themselves "newtonians" and judging who is and isn't a newtonian... moreover, Newton wasn't talking about invisible immeasurable supposed historical figures who inspired supposed texts which we weren't preserved and which art translated and interpreted differently by tons of different people. Science is the same for everyone. Whether you understand it or not. It doesn't need anyone's faith to still be true.

Newtons laws would still be laws even if no humans ever existed to understand them.

Of course, this falls on deaf ears and a brain made impervious by faith.

 

[scotth]

Hardly anyone takes Pentecostal/born again Christians seriously, not even other Christians. To say that all Christians believe this is painting Christianity with a very wide brush. It's akin to the Fundamentalist Christian assertation that all atheists are immoral.

George Bush is this type of christian. He was largely elected on the vote of this type of christian. There are 10s if not 100s of millions of this type of christian in this country. They don't need anyone else to take them seriously, they take themselves seriously.

And I've specifically NOT used words like "all" when talking about this group of christians, but have used words like "some" and "many". Quit trying to put words in my mouth.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Gads! 6 pages in two days. Oh well, I'll pause here and join the current discussion later.

 

[Apology]

George Bush is this type of christian. He was largely elected on the vote of this type of christian. There are 10s if not 100s of millions of this type of christian in this country. They don't need anyone else to take them seriously, they take themselves seriously.

And I've specifically NOT used words like "all" when talking about this group of christians, but have used words like "some" and "many". Quit trying to put words in my mouth.

Please post a link that shows conclusively that George Bush is a Pentecostal Christian, or a Born Again Christian. Please also post a link to polls that show there are 10 - 100 million Pentecostal Christians or Born again Christians. Your numbers seem pretty high.

Please also show that it was the Christian vote that got George Bush elected and not the popular vote.

You may not have used the word "all" but you're making sweeping statements that seem to apply to "all" Christendom, and others on this board are not above attributing bad qualities to "Christians" without qualifying it with the word "some", so I felt it was valid to point it out. Sorry you feel persecuted by this.

 

[scotth]

Please post a link that shows conclusively that George Bush is a Pentecostal Christian, or a Born Again Christian. Please also post a link to polls that show there are 10 - 100 million Pentecostal Christians or Born again Christians. Your numbers seem pretty high.

Please also show that it was the Christian vote that got George Bush elected and not the popular vote.

You may not have used the word "all" but you're making sweeping statements that seem to apply to "all" Christendom, and others on this board are not above attributing bad qualities to "Christians" without qualifying it with the word "some", so I felt it was valid to point it out. Sorry you feel persecuted by this.

Oh go post a link that supports anything you say for once. Are you so ignorant of current events that this is not plain? Ever watch any interview with Bush and actually listen to what he says?

He doesn't even believe in evolution for crying out loud. During the republican debate a few weeks ago, 3 candidates indicated the same.

How about you pick up the book, "The Faith of George Bush". He is a self described born again christian. This book is not an attempted expose or axe job, either. The person who wrote this book was quite approving and kind.

ETA: Where do you live? Have you moved around much? I've lived and been all over the country. If you aren't aware of the majority religious attitudes of FL, GA, MI, AR, AL, TX, MO, TN, KY, and parts of many other states, you need to wake up and smell the coffee. And they would certainly claim that you are the one that is not the true or majority christian. In a relgious debate, were the bible was the ultimate reference, they would wipe the floor with you.

 

[Apology]

Oh go post a link that supports anything you say for once. Are you so ignorant of current events that this is not plain? Ever watch any interview with Bush and actually listen to what he says?

He doesn't even believe in evolution for crying out loud. During the republican debate a few weeks ago, 3 candidates indicated the same.

How about you pick up the book, "The Faith of George Bush". He is a self described born again christian. This book is not an attempted expose or axe job, either. The person who wrote this book was quite approving and kind.

I have posted many links which back up what I've been saying in this thread. Please do read them.

I am still waiting for your evidence that George Bush was elected by the Fundamentalist Christian vote rather than the popular vote. Another post full of anti-Christian or Anti-Bush rhetoric without any links will be considered a concession that you do not have any such evidence.

 

[scotth]

I have posted many links which back up what I've been saying in this thread. Please do read them.

I am still waiting for your evidence that George Bush was elected by the Fundamentalist Christian vote rather than the popular vote. Another post full of anti-Christian or Anti-Bush rhetoric without any links will be considered a concession that you do not have any such evidence.

Beside the book I've already listed, here is a link on Bush's religious views or his mixing of religion and politics:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2002043481_domke23.html


Here is a great one, the evangelical's crow about getting Bush elected here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32793-2004Nov7.html

A great little article at beliefnet:
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/152/story_15215_1.html

How many do you want? Seriously, to not know this, you would have to not see any news for the last 6 years. Even Fox news covers this, but they are happy about it, rather than upset.

 

[Gregory]

Positive ethics are a myth if you just look at the Judeo-Christian religions. God is not love if you read what the Torah, Koran and Bible actually say. (Not to mention the claim the Christian God, "is a loving God." That is definitely a myth within a myth.)

Perhaps some of the Eastern religions like Hinduism and Buddhism differ but I tend to doubt it because the violence in religions stems from group behavior, 'us' against 'them'.

I would suggest that in this case, what the Bible, Torah, and Koran actually say has very little to do with anything. People define their own religions; if a particular religious sect pays no mind to certain parts of the Bible, than those parts of the Bible are irrelevant to those religious sects, despite the fact that they're theoretically scripture.

In other words, since the question is whether religion can teach people ethics, not whether such-and-such a religious book is a good source of morality, and large parts of religious books are not considered by many of the religious, they are irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[articulett]

When he was Governor of Texas he voted in "Jesus Day".

He has declared that God gods him and told him to go to war with Iraq.

He has made this whole war about the evil between the good guys (Christians-- with a nod to "judeo" to keep up Jews happy) and the Muslims as evil.

You seem to want a lot of evidence, Apology, to counter what you believe... which you don't seem to really read or care about, and you seem to take some pretty lame sources for propping up what you want to believe.

And that is the problem with religion, I think. The way it refines and molds a sort of confirmation bias. You learn to absorb and even fabricate or twist evidence in favor of your view, while negating, ignoring, or not even "seeing" all the evidence in opposition of what you want to be true.

You move the goalposts according to what you want to be true and change the discussion to something different than what it was about. Is there anything good about religion? Is it worth the lazy thinking it promotes--amongst other atrocities. Is it good that the same arguments you use to prop up Christianity and absolve it from all bad stuff so that it's super duper--is the same confirmation bias tactics people use to prop up Islam, Scientology, The Peoples' Temple, Mormonism. Every faith has reasons exactly like yours as to why their faith is better than others or not responsible for the atrocities attributed in their name.

You may wish to make excuses for your religion or claim to know what the majority of Christians believe or teach--but that doesn't make your assessment correct--nor are your conclusions about Hitler correct. The evidence is the same for everybody, and people come to very different conclusions based on their particular indoctrination.

The religious cherry-pick, make excuses, twist passages, etc. all to try to make it look nice and good and right in their heads. That's a fact. That doesn't make it good much less true. I am satisfied that Hitler was as much of a Christian as Bush was per their own self defined definitions of the term and those who followed them. Moreover, I am quite certain that Hitler is in Heaven according to many Christian beliefs so long as you don't tell them it was Hitler you are talking about. Remember the prodigal son? Jesus died so supposedly anyone (no matter how vile) could be saved, right? I know it's a silly story. And the idea of killing people to atone for ridiculous non-sins and the future sins of people who don't yet exist is silly-- but it's your theology.

You are disrupting your ability to think clearly in your effort to run around and try to explain why it all really makes sense and it's not really responsible for anything to do with Hitler and it really is truly good for something, etc. etc. And the only person you seem to be fooling is yourself.

None of us care whether Hitler was or wasn't a "Christian" according to whom. We don't like that he is constantly labeled an atheist by dishonest theists, because he clearly was not. We don't really care what people believe about the afterlife and who goes there and why. The conversation was supposed to be about religion. What is it good for? Where is the evidence?

My position is that it served a purpose for civilizing and educating and socializing people at one time--a kind of insurance policy and a way of promoting in group cooperation and goals-- but we've outgrown it. There is no evidence that any of it conains any truths. It might stillbe a great facilitator of social relationships and community... it might give people emotional hope and comfort... it's liberal and more eastern versions seem far more benign. But they all still claim to have truths that aren't really "truths" as far as anything measurable, right? And none seem to promote any special kind of goodness and morality that is evident to people outside the group do they?

 

[scotth]

I would suggest that in this case, what the Bible, Torah, and Koran actually say has very little to do with anything. People define their own religions;

All the big three religions hold as a key concept that the creator of the universe took the time to write/dictate a book telling us our place in his creation and our relationship with the creator. You are suggesting that these books are then ignored or to be ignored? I suggest you argue that with your local religious authority. I'll let him explain what that doesn't fly.

Now moderates are frequently fairly unfamiliar with what their religious books contain, and imagine that they are much more reasonable than they really are. If I get to make the determination on who a real christian, jew, or muslim is.... I am going to pick the ones that believes something compatible with what their holy book says. The whole argument for belief in god really hinges on those books being somehow or other the inspired word of god.

I am speechless that someone on 'your side' would even make such an argument.

 

[Apology]

Fine, I did your homework for you.

George Bush is a Methodist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush

It's kind of unclear, but Methodists seem to believe that salvation is available to all, but not granted to all, so it's not like you can just say, "I'm sorry, I love you Jesus," on your deathbed and go to heaven as a Methodist (it's near the bottom where they stop waffling on the issue)

http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=16&mid=9077

Polls from 2004 show that 77% of whites voted for Bush but only 24% of Evangelicals voted for him, perhaps we should blame white people for Bush instead:

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

There's no doubt that Bush makes a lot of annoying religious statements, evangelicals love him, and that Methodism has an evangelical streak as well, but that is far from proving that Fundies elected him or that he's a fundie himself.

All I want you to do is make a good argument when you speak against Christianity that doesn't make you sound like you're just ranting and isn't this easily torn apart.