Was the shot Oswald had to take really all that hard?

[Hamradioguy]

Yep that "pristine" bullet is significantly deformed. A rather important point when you consider it was a jacketed bullet. Obtain a similar bullet (removed from the cartridge please) and try pounding on it with a hammer or squeezing it in a vice. It will take a huge amount of force to deform it even a little bit. Unfortunately a lot of the JFK conspiracy books don't show either the back end of that so called pristine bullet bullet or even a side view which shows how deformed it really is.

 

[ConspiRaider]

Interesting theory I ran across many years ago, but I can't remember where - so don't ask for a link.

Oswald was actually trying to get Connelly, who would not give him an honorable discharge, or for some other grievance. If that was Oswald's motive, it removes any controversy over his skill as a marksman. At least it's an interesting idea...

That's gotta be woo - some basement dweller dreamed it up, I'm sure.

Out of 3 shots, Oswald essentially hit his target dead center on 2 of them. That Connally got hit was luck - Connally was simply in the way of the exiting bullet from Kennedy's neck.

Oswald had earlier attempted to kill General Walker, a right winger whom leftist Oswald hated for whatever reason. A wooden cross slat in Walker's home window deflected the bullet just barely enough to miss him.

Also, Oswald was on his way to kill Nixon at one point. He thought (erroneously) Nixon was going to be in town, grabbed his gun and was going to go out and shoot him. His wife, Marina, tricked him into the bathroom, then trapped him in there by wedging herself against the door. Until Lee calmed down.

I'm sure she got nailed for that. Oswald beat the hell out of his wife, which shouldn't be much of a surprise, considering his temperament...

 

[Gravy]

Because the U.S. Gov had been through this kind of thing before. And, Russia was happy to offload him. They knew he was a kook.

Not very many, but others had defected from the USA, only to be soon disillusioned and aching to return. It's tough to leave home wherever it is, and that's even more a case for the USA. Many Americans are just not aware of how good we really do have it. That message gets drilled in rather clearly when you leave.

So the U.S. Gov wasn't really surprised he wanted to return, and, they decided to keep a loose watch on him when he did. FBI, mostly.

The JFK House Select Committee commissioned an interesting study of other defectors to Russia who were contemporaries of Oswald. Most returned to the U.S. Russia was no picnic: fear, repression, and two years to get a phone installed!

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/defector.htm

 

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Discovery TV Channel did recreation of shooting to debunk the so called "magic bullet"
claimed by CT kooks. Placed person with Carcano rifle on elevated platform same
elevation as Book Depository and used ballistic gel dummies with bone simulants
Placed dummies at same distance and position as Kennedy/Connally - with Connally
inboard and lower as was on that day. Most CT committ elementary mistake of
assuming were positioned directly inline with each other (where have we seem this
before?) Rifleman was able to almost exactly duplicate wounds, Kennedy struck in
upper back, exiting at throat, Connally in back, exiting through ribs, passing through
wrist and inbedding in thigh. Only difference was their shot struck 2 of the ribs versus
only 1 rib, bullet lacked velocity to inbed in thigh, bouncing off. This was only one shot
and could duplicate the wounds almost perfectly.
inbedding

Now, this is silly.

I readily admit the injuries are possible. Many seemingly impossible things do happen.

To contend that they were recreated is silly. The angles are so jacked up that this shot could not be done purposely.

 

[GreNME]

I visited Dealey Plaza in March. I was actually surprised by how small and close-up the whole thing was. 40m is an easy shot with iron sites, much less a scope. The motorcade was not moving fast, and took the corner right in front of Oswald's position. For any trained marksman, it would not be very difficult.

I live close enough to have visited Dealy Plaza a few times, and I have the impression that even I could have made the shot, and I don't like guns or allow them in my home. I'll grant that even though I don't like guns I'm still a respectable shot, but I've had neither military training nor my own rifle to practice with, and Oswald had both.

So, he was a communist that thought himself more than he was and needed to prove it. Two motivations.

Bugliosi also describes Oswald as being obbsessed with pro-communism, but also put Oswald's state of mind in the days leading up to the shooting as desperate and prone to radical actions-- his wife was leaving him and had refused reconciliation the day before. Bugliosi even stated in an interview that Oswald may very well have not gone through with the shooting had Marina come to stay with him the night before to talk of reconciliation.

Why did the U.S. governmnet allow him back after defecting?

He was ex-US Military who was coming back to the States, and he was bringing with him a Russian bride. The gub'mint got to rectify the embarrassment of having a former soldier defect, and they got the bonus of a Russian defector. It was all image politics, because the US policy was to have more Soviet defectors coming to the US than vice-versa. Made the "see? we're better" rhetoric stand out a bit more.

 

[Dr Harry Rein]

What was the motive for Oswald?

What was the motive for these three individuals:

1) John Hinkley
2) Squeaky Fromme
3) Sara Jane Moore

All of the above were attempted presidential assassins, the only difference is that Oswald was more successful. Nobody questions the fact that these individuals were not part of a conspiracy.

Whatever Oswald's motive was, he took it to the grave. We can only speculate.

IMO, Oswald was an assassination waiting to happen. Earlier, he had taken a shot at Gen. Edwin Walker, a noted Dallas right-winger. He mentioned to his wife that he also wanted to kill Richard Nixon.

The JFK assassination was a crime of opportunity. He found out several days before that Kennedy's motorcade route would pass right in front of the building he was working in. He decided, probably only when he learned about the route, to take a shot at the big guy. If the motorcade route had been planned a different way, we might never have heard of Oswald.

In addition, Oswald, who worshiped Castro and Cuba, probably had some grudge against the Kennedy Administration because of the Bay of Pigs operations, and other attempts to overthrow Castro, including attempted assassinations of the Cuban leader. Even though these attempts were only verified years later, I understand that there were rumors flying around the left-wing community about them.

 

[ktesibios]

E.O. 11110 again?

[Monty Python mode]
NOT THAT RECORD!
NOT THAT RECORD!
NOT THAT RECORD!
[/Monty Python mode]

Really folks, Edward Flaherty put that one under the microscope in his Debunking the Federal Reserve Conspiracy Theories. It turns out that the claim is based on a complete misunderstanding of the purpose of the E.O., the previous E.O. it modified and where monetary policy was going at that time.

As economic activity grew in the fifties and sixties, the public demand for low denomination currency grew, increasing the Treasury's need for silver to back additional certificate issues and to mint new coins (dimes, quarters, half-dollars). However, during the late fifties the price of silver began to rise and reached the point that the market value of the silver contained in the coins and backing the certificates was greater than the face value of the money itself.2

To conserve the Treasury's silver needs, the Silver Purchase Act and related measures were repealed by Congress in 1963 with Public Law 88-36. Following the repeal, only the President could authorize new silver certificate issues, and no longer the Treasury Secretary. The law, signed by Kennedy himself, also permits the Federal Reserve to issue small denomination bills to replace the outgoing silver certificates (prior to the act, the Fed could only issue Federal Reserve Notes in larger denominations). The Treasury's shrinking silver stock could then be used to mint coins only and not have to back currency. The repeal left only the President with the authority to issue silver certificates, however it did permit him to delegate this authority. E.O. 11,110 does this by transferring the authority from the President to the Treasury Secretary.2

E.O. 11,110 did not create authority to issue new silver certificates, it only affected who could give the order. The purpose of the order was to facilitate the reduction of certificates in circulation, not to increase them. In October 1964 the Treasury ceased issuing them entirely. The Coinage Act of 1965 (PL 89-81) ended the practice of using silver in most U.S. coins, and in 1968 Congress ended the redeemability of silver certificates (PL 90-29). E.O. 11,110 was never reversed by President Johnson and remained on the books until 1987 when there was a general cleaning-up of executive orders (E.O. 12,608, 9/9/87). However, by this time the remaining legislative authority behind E.O. 11,110 had been repealed by Congress with PL 97-258 in 1982.2

In summary, E.O. 11,110 did not create new authority to issue additional silver certificates. In fact, its intention was to ease the process for their removal so that small denomination Federal Reserve Notes could replace them in accordance with a law Kennedy himself signed. If Kennedy had really sought to reduce Federal Reserve power, then why did he sign a bill that gave the Fed still more power?

source

The conspiracist belief that if a motive to commit an act can somehow be imputed to someone it's evidence that the act was committed has always mystified me. That the conspiracy theory industry cobbles these putative motives together out of lies, half-truths, incomprehension, rags and wind, however, comes as no surprise at all.

 

[ConspiRaider]

It means that the bullet was fired.

This has no relevance to the fact that the bullet does not represent a bullet that caused such a great deal of damage.

ETA: This only shows that that bullet most probably was not the real bullet. Could have been someone misplaced the real bullet and did not want to get into trouble for losing evidence in such a high profile case.

Incorrect. That bullet WAS the one - the 2nd one from Oswald's rifle - causing the wounds to Kennedy and Connally.

You have to understand that no bullets even needed to be found, at all, to promote or disprove ANY theory. In fact, bullet #1 was never found. Bullet #3 was fragmented to pieces by the impact with Kennedy's skull.

The stupidity of planting the bullet on the Connally stretcher - as you see in the colossally horrible fiction of Stone's JFK movie - is quite obvious. At that time, no alleged conspirator even KNEW there was a "need" to plant a magic bullet!

But as we know - if you understand how to present information to a conspiracy-hungry audience - fact and logic and feasibility hardly figure into the formula.

 

[Gravy]

It means that the bullet was fired.

This has no relevance to the fact that the bullet does not represent a bullet that caused such a great deal of damage.

ETA: This only shows that that bullet most probably was not the real bullet.

Do you plan to back your "most probably" statement with evidence?

Could have been someone misplaced the real bullet and did not want to get into trouble for losing evidence in such a high profile case.

Well, I did lean something new (to me), and from a 9/11 truther, no less. The lead extrusion may have been a divot cut out by the FBI to test the lead. A photo on Jim Hoffman's page apparently shows the bullet before the divot. http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/green/BesmirchingHistory.html

The bullet was a ballistics match to the rifle, and of course wasn't "pristine."

 

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Incorrect. That bullet WAS the one - the 2nd one from Oswald's rifle - causing the wounds to Kennedy and Connally.

Evidence?

You have to understand that no bullets even needed to be found, at all, to promote or disprove ANY theory. In fact, bullet #1 was never found. Bullet #3 was fragmented to pieces by the impact with Kennedy's skull.

I never implied that the bullet needed to be found to prove anything.

The stupidity of planting the bullet on the Connally stretcher - as you see in the colossally horrible fiction of Stone's JFK movie - is quite obvious. At that time, no alleged conspirator even KNEW there was a "need" to plant a magic bullet!

People do stupid things all the time.

I am not saying that the found bullet proves anything outside of the fact that that bullet was not the bullet that did the damage.

Holding on to silly claims that mean little promotes conspiracy theorist ideas.

 

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Do you plan to back your "most probably" statement with evidence?

No, because I have no dog in this fight. I just find the grasping at irrelevant details that look to be false does nothing but promote conspiracies.

 

[Gravy]

Sorry, Jerome. "Saying" is not the same thing as providing evidence or "fact." Since you have no evidence that the bullet was planted, your claim is rejected.

 

[ConspiRaider]

I am not saying that the found bullet proves anything outside of the fact that that bullet was not the bullet that did the damage.

Incorrect.

If the bullet found on Connally's stretcher was NOT the 2nd shot - then where did this bullet come from? Why was it on his stretcher? That bullet was found on the stretcher BEFORE surgery was performed on Connally. BEFORE the autopsy was performed on JFK. How would anyone know that they were supposed to plant this bullet? What would tell them that? Nothing, is the answer. Planting an extra bullet does nothing more than put hair on the conspiracy cake.

That 2nd bullet actually did exactly what it was designed to do: Penetrate a body and exit, more or less intact. It's why bullets are jacketed. That results from a Geneva Convention ruling following the horrific death counts from World War I, when bullets were NOT jacketed - but fragmented into multi-wounders inside the body. Jacketed bullets were meant to wound - to stop - not necessarily to kill. At least not on a body shot. That is what this 2nd shot did.

 

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Sorry, Jerome. "Saying" is not the same thing as providing evidence or "fact." Since you have no evidence that the bullet was planted, your claim is rejected.

O.K., you have no evidence that the bullet is "the" bullet, your claim is rejected.

See what I am talking about?

 

[R.Mackey]

O.K., you have no evidence that the bullet is "the" bullet, your claim is rejected.

See what I am talking about?

Stop being obstinate.

We have plenty of evidence that it is. Namely the sworn statements of those who recovered it.

You, on the other hand, have no evidence that it isn't "the" bullet. This is denialism. You may as well say we have no evidence that "the" Kennedy was ever born.

We see perfectly well what you're talking about. We're also not impressed.

 

[GreNME]

O.K., you have no evidence that the bullet is "the" bullet, your claim is rejected.

See what I am talking about?

There's plenty of evidence. It's called "ballistics."

 

[Gravy]

O.K., you have no evidence that the bullet is "the" bullet, your claim is rejected.

See what I am talking about?

No, Jerome, I don't. Kennedy and Connolly were shot with the same bullet. No bullet was found in the limo or made a hole in the limo. The bullet was found on Connally's stretcher and there's a chain of custody for it after that. The bullet ballistically matches Oswald's rifle. That's called evidence.

You on the other hand, have zero evidence to the contrary. Do you understand this?

And as for the bullet being impossibly pristine, McAdams again:

Conspiracy books make all kinds of assertions about the inability of the Single Bullet to have done the things the Warren Commission said it did. What happens if one actually experiments, shooting mock torsos with a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle using bullets like those Oswald supposedly used? John Lattimer did that. Click here for a report of his findings. Lattimer compared an experimental bullet that did the same damage to his mock bodies that CE 399 did to Kennedy and Connally. See how similar his experimental bullet is to CE 399. [A photo of the entire bullet would have been appreciated]

When a bullet just like Commission Exhibit 399 is fired through a human wrist bone at 2,000 feed per second, it is almost certain to be badly mangled. But when CE 399 hit Connally's wrist it had been slowed by transiting Kennedy's torso and tumbling through Connally's chest. When it finally hit the hard radius bone, it was traveling about 1,000 feet per second. Dr. Martin Fackler, President of the International Wound Ballistics Association, fired a round identical to Oswald's bullet through a human wrist at 1,100 feet per second. Here is the resulting bullet.

 

[JEROME DA GNOME]

We see perfectly well what you're talking about. We're also not impressed.

Do you carry a mouse in your pocket?

The fact remains that you do not understand my point at all.

Please prove me wrong: What was my point?

 

[JEROME DA GNOME]

There's plenty of evidence. It's called "ballistics."

I just asked for the evidence. Simple request.

 

[GreNME]

I just asked for the evidence. Simple request.

That's a misleading statement. It's like the 9/11 truth movement that claims to just be asking questions.

Go search the Warren commission. Go buy Vincent Bugliosi's latest book. There are reams of evidence about the whole case. Separating one aspect from the rest of the case loses context, which is the only way questionable theories can be maintained.