How were WTC core columns separated at the weld planes?

[R.Mackey]

The best place to place Ammonium perchlorate is in the thermal insulation, or in the drywall itself, it would produce white smoke, as the drywall or insulation was heated.
IT would work by destroying the Insulation, as well as heating the structure, however an electrical short could ignite the whole structure in a matter of seconds and a fire would do the same. It is to ignitable to be used unless put in place in a relatively short time frame.
Gypsum and insulation would be more highly more likely.

Don't people use white phosphorus anymore? Brilliant white smoke, plenty hot...

I mean, while we're making up substances, why not?

 

[technoextreme]

MILDEC knew how to weaponize Ockham's Razor, and use it as a cloaking device with robust, real-time dynamic stabilization.

I don't like Ockham's Razor because of that stupid implication. I like what David Hume says though:

I weigh the one miracle against the other; and according to the superiority, which I discover, I pronounce my decision, and always reject the greater miracle. If the falsehood of his testimony would be more miraculous, than the event which he relates; then, and not till then, can he pretend to command my belief or opinion.

Show me that your woo woo lazer exists.

 

[Mr. Skinny]

Show me that your woo woo lazer exists.

I'm still waiting for the laser specs as well.

Max? Am I on ignore?

 

[Gravy]

Max asks: How strong were the welds?

As we're discussing the core columns, the answer is, "Generally weaker than the columns." Of all the core column samples that FEMA/ASCE collected, only one section had an intact butt weld.

Had you read the NIST report, you'd also know that most of the core columns collected were badly deformed, and that even the sections that appeared straight were usually bent. That made it difficult for NIST to test "virgin" core column steel to use as a basis for comparison.

Perhaps you're thinking, "Oh, but that's because those samples were from the impact zones." No, only two core column samples could be identified as coming from those zones.

See, that's why I quizzed you on this stuff above. I wanted to see what you'd read of the studies that were done by the people who actually collected and tested the steel. The answer is obviously "very little."

Some perimeter columns told a different story. On mechanical floors, perimeter columns were both bolted and welded. Those joints tended to be "overwelded" and stronger than the relatively thin cross-section of the columns.

Of course, reading the NIST report and learning these things would have interfered with your Really Big Adventure O' Ignorant Speculation and Disdain for Expertise, wouldn't it?

Are you learning, Major Tom? Or are we wasting our time here?

 

[Major_Tom]

In addition to the picture of the columns from the "spire" trailing a white smoke, the following 2 pictures show a similar trailing smoke from falling perimeter column-spandrel plate sections.

h t t p://w ww.sharpprintinginc.com/911/index.php?module=photoalbum&PHPWS_Album_id=9&PHPWS_Photo_op=view&PHPWS_Photo_id=674

h t t p://w w w.sharpprintinginc.com/911/index.php?module=photoalbum&PHPWS_Album_id=9&PHPWS_Photo_op=view&PHPWS_Photo_id=675

The 3 photos should be studied together.

I have no idea what this trailing smoke is but the gypsum explanation is quite a stretch.

I have no idea what "dustification" is. Hard to take seriously.

A lot of "heavy dust", no doubt, but the ability of this dust to "cling" to falling objects so far into their fall (the perimeter column sections shown can be estimated to be from the 60 to 80th floors) is a bit odd. Also, in the caxse of the falling spire columns, the smoke comes only from one end ot the falling beams. The beams are falling to the side but smoke comes from only a particular point of each beam.

Gravy writes:

Had you read the NIST report, you'd also know that most of the core columns collected were badly deformed, and that even the sections that appeared straight were usually bent. That made it difficult for NIST to test "virgin" core column steel to use as a basis for comparison.

Perhaps you're thinking, "Oh, but that's because those samples were from the impact zones." No, only two core column samples could be identified as coming from those zones.

See, that's why I quizzed you on this stuff above. I wanted to see what you'd read of the studies that were done by the people who actually collected and tested the steel. The answer is obviously "very little."

When talking about core column sections we must distinguish between core box column sections and core I-beam sections.

Concerning core box columns, the statements quoted through Gravy lead to false conclusions. Concerning the core box columns as seen in the rubble, the following 2 statements are true:

1) The large, large majority of core box column sections seen in the rubble are totally straight.

2) The large, large majority of core box column sections seen in the rubble have squared-off ends with clean breaks that are right along the original weld surfaces.

Therefore the sources you quote are either not talking about core box column sections, or their samples were few and certainly not a representative collection of samples.

We will begin to look at the weld breaks of core box column sections found in the rubble very soon in this thread. Gravy, you will not be able to gather a collection of photos of mangled and distorted core box column sections to show us. This I guarantee.

I guarantee this because no such columns exist in large numbers. I know of maybe 3 core box columns that are pretty bent-up. And to prove that these core box columns were "badly deformed" in large numbers, you will have to show me some.

And yet I will be able to produce photos of large numbers of core box column sections that are perfectly straight with squared-off ends.

 

[beachnut]

In addition to the picture of the columns from the "spire" trailing a white smoke, the following 2 pictures show a similar trailing smoke from falling perimeter column-spandrel plate sections.

h t t p://w ww.sharpprintinginc.com/911/index.php?module=photoalbum&PHPWS_Album_id=9&PHPWS_Photo_op=view&PHPWS_Photo_id=674

h t t p://w w w.sharpprintinginc.com/911/index.php?module=photoalbum&PHPWS_Album_id=9&PHPWS_Photo_op=view&PHPWS_Photo_id=675

The 3 photos should be studied together.

I have no idea what this trailing smoke is but the gypsum explanation is quite a stretch.

I have no idea what "dustification" is. Hard to take seriously.

A lot of "heavy dust", no doubt, but the ability of this dust to "cling" to falling objects so far into their fall (the perimeter column sections shown can be estimated to be from the 60 to 80th floors) is a bit odd. Also, in the caxse of the falling spire columns, the smoke comes only from one end ot the falling beams. The beams are falling to the side but smoke comes from only a particular point of each beam.

Gravy writes:
When talking about core column sections we must distinguish between core box column sections and core I-beam sections.

Concerning core box columns, the statements quoted through Gravy lead to false conclusions. Concerning the core box columns as seen in the rubble, the following 2 statements are true:

1) The large, large majority of core box column sections seen in the rubble are totally straight.

2) The large, large majority of core box column sections seen in the rubble have squared-off ends with clean breaks that are right along the original weld surfaces.

Therefore the sources you quote are either not talking about core box column sections, or their samples were few and certainly not a representative collection of samples.

We will begin to look at the weld breaks of core box column sections found in the rubble very soon in this thread. Gravy, you will not be able to gather a collection of photos of mangled and distorted core box column sections to show us. This I guarantee.

I guarantee this because no such columns exist in large numbers. I know of maybe 3 core box columns that are pretty bent-up. And to prove that these core box columns were "badly deformed" in large numbers, you will have to show me some.

And yet I will be able to produce photos of large numbers of core box column sections that are perfectly straight with squared-off ends.

This post and your web site are both a joke. There is no support for your conclusions. Your photos are good for history only; not your unsubstantiated conclusion. Your lack of real facts and evidence to support your botched conclusion is absurd. You never present what steel column damage looks like due to explosives. Do you understand this? You made up what you think your photos mean; no real support or evidence to back it up. Your ideas are not based on reality. I hope you and Max are kids who will grow up, gain experience, mature, and gain the knowledge so you will understand reality. I am sorry there are no things to debate, your web site contains no rational conclusions or evidence to support your ideas.

I can't wait (that was a lie) until you come up with some insane idea what the dust is. Since there were 3 inches of wallboard/drywall on the core columns, I have to say your dismissing the gypsum is a failure of knowledge and judgment; your leadership score is not going to be high.

 

[DGM]

Major Tom:
Before you go any further.

Were you involved with the on-site investigation and clean-up?
Because your acting as you know more than they would. You never did answer my question.

Were the people on-site "in on it" or woefully incompetent? How about it?

 

[Max Photon]

Max Photon to Major Tom - How about a photo collection of core-column oxidation?

* * *

Major Tom,

Assembling a usable collection of photos of core column welds would be a fine contribution to 911 researchers of all stripes.

May I also suggest - if it is not too much trouble - that you also create a section dedicated to heavy oxidation at core columns seats, and at the connections of other core members. (We can fill in that section as time goes on.)

Max


P.S. For those of you who play the guitar or piano, the David Bowie song Major Tom is really fun. It has some beautiful chord progressions.

 

[BenBurch]

Gravy,

Does the superficial welding point to construction shortcuts?

Or was the building designed based upon that sort of weld?

Given that these buildings were built in NYC where in the past construction was, let us say graced, by companies run by a few families with Sicilian surnames, I have wondered if any shortcuts were taken that became apparent in the wreck, and if these had any contributory effect?

Thanks!

-Ben

 

[Gravy]

Major Tom, you've made zero progress. Please pay attention.

In addition to the picture of the columns from the "spire" trailing a white smoke, the following 2 pictures show a similar trailing smoke from falling perimeter column-spandrel plate sections.

I have no idea what this trailing smoke is but the gypsum explanation is quite a stretch.

Please explain, using sound reasoning, why this is only smoke, and why gypsum and other dust is a stretch.

A lot of "heavy dust", no doubt, but the ability of this dust to "cling" to falling objects so far into their fall (the perimeter column sections shown can be estimated to be from the 60 to 80th floors) is a bit odd.

No, it isn't. Your arguments from incredulity are immature and tiresome. Dust follows in the wake and vortices of the faster-moving, heavier objects. This is a very simple concept, Major Tom. I can tell there are no dirt roads near you.

When talking about core column sections we must distinguish between core box column sections and core I-beam sections. Concerning core box columns, the statements quoted through Gravy lead to false conclusions.

Wrong. Had you read the NIST report as I have, you'd know that I know exactly which types, and how many, core columns were collected by FEMA/ASCE. I would tell you where to find that information, but you really need to start with chapter 1, NIST NCSTAR 1.

Will you do that today? It's not long and it's written for the layman. Nothing to be intimidated by.

Concerning the core box columns as seen in the rubble, the following 2 statements are true:
1) The large, large majority of core box column sections seen in the rubble are totally straight.

As NIST notes, columns that can at first glance appear to be straight can actually have considerable distortion to them. Do you understand that the few photos you've seen are only an approximation of reality? That a low-resolution, two-dimensional reproduction of an object is no substitute for seeing, feeling, measuring, and studying the same object?

Understanding this point is a big step towards correcting your flawed thinking. I'd appreciate your answer.

2) The large, large majority of core box column sections seen in the rubble have squared-off ends with clean breaks that are right along the original weld surfaces.

And when did I say otherwise? That's been our contention all along, Major Tom, because the majority of the columns break at their weakest point. You'd know this if you had been paying attention.

You have repeatedly been asked if you understand this point. Do you? Yes or no? If you do not, we can spend more time on it until it's clear.

Therefore the sources you quote are either not talking about core box column sections, or their samples were few and certainly not a representative collection of samples.

See above.

We will begin to look at the weld breaks of core box column sections found in the rubble very soon in this thread.

You must be joking. You think we're here to have our time wasted? I've already told you that we've all seen the photos and agree that nothing appears amiss with the way the columns separated.

It is you who has a problem with the photos, not us. And since you are unable to articulate why you think the columns should have separated differently, despite being asked repeatedly to do so, it is you who must pay attention, read, and learn.

Gravy, you will not be able to gather a collection of photos of mangled and distorted core box column sections to show us. This I guarantee.

You're on. Here's the wager:

I will produce a collection of photos of WTC 1 & 2 box core columns that are bent, buckled, twisted, and/or have ends that fractured, sheared, and otherwise did not separate cleanly at the welds. Again, I agree that most core columns did separate cleanly, which for some reason you don't understand.

But this is your challenge, and I accept it.

The columns in my photos will be identifiable as box core columns and will not be demonstrable duplicates of each other.

How many such columns would constitute a "collection?" About 30?

If I succeed, you will post a permanent link to my website prominently on the front page of your WTC website, with the all-caps title "PLEASE GO HERE FOR ACCURATE INFORMATION ABOUT 9/11." Further, you will be required to produce two brief written expert opinions about your theory that explosives were used on the columns shown in the photos on your site. These opinions must come from acknowledged, currently-working experts in structural failure and/or structural blast analysis, such as W. Gene Corley, Allyn Killsheimer, Harri Kytomaa, and Matthys Levy. Again, brief statements are fine.

If I fail, on my site I will post a permanent link to your website with the all-caps title "GO TO THE EXCELLENT SITE OF THE WTC COLLAPSE ANALYST WHO CHALLENGED MY SCHOLARSHIP AND WON." I will then refrain from posting on this forum for one month.

Since you have guaranteed a win, you will not hesitate to accept this wager. Let me know and I'll get to work during the baseball game tonight. Go BoSox!

 

[Apollo20]

Before anyone gets too excited about finding x number of box core columns that do, or do not, have bends or rough ends we need to consider how many box core columns there were to start with. The transition from welded box core columns to rolled wide flange core columns generally occurred well above the 50th floor in each tower. I would therefore hazard a guess that there were at least 1000 36-foot box column sections per tower.

30 examples of a particular type of box column out of 1000 is only 3%. I do not see much statistical significance in a 3% sampling; we should focus on the other 97%........

 

[Mr. Skinny]

(snip)

P.S. For those of you who play the guitar or piano, the David Bowie song Major Tom is really fun. It has some beautiful chord progressions.

Thanks, Max.

For those that wish to look up the chord progressions, do not look for a song called Major Tom, but instead, look for Space Oddity.

 

[Gravy]

Gravy,

Does the superficial welding point to construction shortcuts?

Or was the building designed based upon that sort of weld?

The welds were done according to AISC and AWS (American Welding Society) specifications, and were thoroughly inspected and tested at the fabrication plants and on site. Yearly spot inspections were also done. The NIST report goes into detail about this for a few hundred pages, with copies of the original welding requirements, welder certification requirements, letters back and forth between the engineers, the PA, and the fabricators, and copies of inspection reports. FEMA and NIST also tested the welds. The welds were quite strong, but weren't designed for the forces they were subjected to on 9/11.

 

[BenBurch]

... The welds were quite strong, but weren't designed for the forces they were subjected to on 9/11.

Nobody designs for that. If you did, the WTC would have had tiny porthole windows through the armored steel walls, a column every 30 feet on the floors, and would not have been able to be built taller than 30 stories or so...

Thanks for that information on the welding. I've wondered what sort of inspections the actual welds got when constructed for some time now. I guess I watched too many episodes of The Sopranos...

 

[Max Photon]

Ground Control to Max Photon. About that circuit...

Thanks, Max.

For those that wish to look up the chord progressions, do not look for a song called Major Tom, but instead, look for Space Oddity.

Oops. Sorry.

Space Oddity is what I meant to say.

Anyway, the chord progressions are really beautiful, and really fun to play.


Back to the thread's topic...

Another thing we should probably do - to give the explosives broke core column welds hypothesis a fair shake - is to discuss a few of the most unusual or suspicious looking columns or column ends (or other core members).

Major Tom will be able to post images on the thread soon (which will be better than having readers cut-&-paste URLs).

Max

* * *

 

[A W Smith]

Before anyone gets too excited about finding x number of box core columns that do, or do not, have bends or rough ends we need to consider how many box core columns there were to start with. The transition from welded box core columns to rolled wide flange core columns generally occurred well above the 50th floor in each tower. I would therefore hazard a guess that there were at least 1000 36-foot box column sections per tower.

30 examples of a particular type of box column out of 1000 is only 3%. I do not see much statistical significance in a 3% sampling; we should focus on the other 97%........

you mean focus on the box columns that were under the pile and not photographed?

 

[Mr. Skinny]

Any laser specs yet, Max?

 

[Max Photon]

Max Photon to Apollo20: How best to study the separation of the core columns?

Before anyone gets too excited about finding x number of box core columns that do, or do not, have bends or rough ends we need to consider how many box core columns there were to start with. The transition from welded box core columns to rolled wide flange core columns generally occurred well above the 50th floor in each tower. I would therefore hazard a guess that there were at least 1000 36-foot box column sections per tower.

30 examples of a particular type of box column out of 1000 is only 3%. I do not see much statistical significance in a 3% sampling; we should focus on the other 97%........

we should focus on the other 97%...


Apollo,

Do you have any suggestions for how to proceed?

Max


P.S. Was Apollo20 the mission where they got to the moon, but got carded?

* * *

 

[Mr. Skinny]

The welds were done according to AISC and AWS (American Welding Society) specifications, and were thoroughly inspected and tested at the fabrication plants and on site.

Gravy,

Do you know if the inspection included radiography of the welds (or a certain percentage of the welds)? Not that I expect they would be, but I'm curious.

 

[A W Smith]

Oops. Sorry.

Space Oddity is what I meant to say.

Anyway, the chord progressions are really beautiful, and really fun to play.


Back to the thread's topic...

Another thing we should probably do - to give the explosives broke core column welds hypothesis a fair shake - is to discuss a few of the most unusual or suspicious looking columns or column ends (or other core members).

Major Tom will be able to post images on the thread soon (which will be better than having readers cut-&-paste URLs).

Max

* * *

I'm sorry but to give explosives a fair shake you will first have to calculate the quantity of explosives needed to blow apart a built up column sandwich of three members 3 inches thick. a column explosive charge that would have to be strapped and encased heavily to direct this blast through the column. in 93 a 14 foot Ryder truck full of explosives could not even deflect the columns it was parked next to. Thomas Kost and Max you FAIL