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Space Shuttle Flies Today

I know. It was unprecedented. Today, probes can be made with better quality control, and designed for robotic repair. If the Hubble were repaired by a crew that burned-up on re-entry, would you consider that a good thing? I would not.

Can you give me an example of a space probe being designed today that has some level of ability to repair itself? Maybe be able to fix something similar to what happend to Gallileo or Spirit?

It would be a terrible thing if the crew who fixed the Hubble had died on re-entry. Just like it was terrible that workers died building things like the Panama Canal, The Hoover Dam, even the World Trade Centers.

The only difference is that the deaths would have been televised to the nation.

There is risk in just about everything we do. Do you know how many people die just going to work in the morning?

Here's an estimate incase you wanted to know.:
http://www.driveandstayalive.com/info section/statistics/stats-usa.htm
 
{snip} And this not mentioning all the contractors that are currently involved with NASA.
Such as Boeing, Northrope Grumman, Lockeed Martin, General Dynamics, and others that provide other services. These guys are making money hand over fist
Of course they are! The money they are making is foolishly-spent tax dollars! Duh?

There are companies listed above that are looking at tourist flights to the moon.
Great, as long as they don't use my money.

Here's a link to a paper talking about Nuclear Fusion.
http://cosmos.ucdavis.edu/2005/Cluster 2/Energy Crisis - Peter Kim.pdf

Tritium and Helium-3 are seen as the best possible answer to the fusion problem. There are huge quantities of deuterium on Earth but tritium and helium3 are very rare, but they are abundant on the Moon. And it is very expensive to manufacture helium-3. So much so that mining the moon may be a viable option.
Define "abundant" because I don't think that word means what you think it means. "Mining the Moon "may" be ..." The important word is "may," the use of "might" would be more proper since it implies the possibility is remote. Nonetheless, I have no problem with commercial development of space being paid out of private funds.
 
Nonetheless, I have no problem with commercial development of space being paid out of private funds.

Okay. At least we're working with a defined subset of the problem of human spaceflight, here. This now seems to be more like a discussion of government policy. If so, might we be better moving this to the politics forum? :confused:
 
Yeah, that was what I meant. I'm not interested in watching another one of those. The first sentence of my previous post was directed to you; the second was not. I should have made that clear.
 
I'm pretty sure we've gone over some of the technical aspects of the shuttle before, too.

Bah!

Forget all this everybody, join me in space elevator advocacy!

:D
 
An aircraft can last forever with enough maintenance. I met a B-52 pilot who was flying the same plane his great-grandfather flew at the end of his career

I understand that. B-52 don't have to enter the atmosphere at mach 28, though.

I was just kidding, anyway. I love those machines. It's just sad that NASA didn't have the budget they needed to devellop a new one, like, 10 years ago.
 
My first period 8th graders got to watch the launch online. We had a great discussion about it after. Since we are currently studying Newton's laws of motion, this was the PERFECT opportunity to do a little bit of F=MA calculating. We looked up the mass of the shuttle and the thrust. Then we calculated acceleration for that bad boy.

Then, before I dropped the big one, some kid had it figured out. He asked how much fuel the shuttle burns. I told him how much. He then stated that it was obvious that the mass of the shuttle is decreasing each second by a significant amount, which means that the same thrust gives greater acceleration...


Wow. No kid had ever figured that out before in my class. So all the kids began debating whether or not there was a way of reducing and increasing thrust to compensate for the changed mass, and kid asked if the shuttle had a gas pedal like a car.

Then another asked if the total thrust increased as the shuttle shed SRB's and the ET.

They were really on the ball! I am pleased.

Tomorrow, I'm going to talk about Apollo and how many parts it shed...
 
Worth noting that the thrust doesn't increase as the fuel is burned; the weight decreases, so the same thrust creates a larger acceleration.
 
Sorry. Last derailment from me

Of course they are! The money they are making is foolishly-spent tax dollars! Duh?
You know those companies also make the launch vehicles and systems for robotic missions also.

And I'm sure the families of the employees of those companies to whom some of those wasted tax dollars are going to would not entierly agree with you.

Great, as long as they don't use my money.
Deal!

Define "abundant" because I don't think that word means what you think it means. "Mining the Moon "may" be ..." The important word is "may," the use of "might" would be more proper since it implies the possibility is remote. Nonetheless, I have no problem with commercial development of space being paid out of private funds.

Tell that to the guy who wrote the report. I was going from what he was saying.


Anywhoo's. Wonderful launch sofar. I wish I could go to see one live before they retire the shuttles.
 
It started to go off that rail around posts 3, 4 and 5. Otherwise, it's looking like yet another of our Human spaceflight good v. bad threads.
Well, I tend to be abit rabid when it comes to spaceflight.

To OP --> Sorry for derailing the thread.
 
Your point?
My point was to get you to establish your point.

"The astronaut program is an astonishingly expensive and pointless stunt that should be canceled." What's your rationale for this point of view, since, as I stated, many other areas of government spending can be labelled the same way.
 
Well, I tend to be abit rabid when it comes to spaceflight.

It's probably apparent that I love it as well.

I can detach myself enough to see how the entire space shuttle-ISS loop is a closed boondoggle. Designed over time through shifting requirements, the (initially dubious anyway) science value of the ISS has vastly degraded. The shuttle is (often quoted as) the most complex machine ever built. That means that even here at the end of its life, it's still experimental. A lot of money has been spent achieving exactly the opposite of the original vision of a shuttle-space station system.

I know this. I'm not stupid.

I also know that some advocates of private-sector spaceflight are overly optimistic about the current capabilities of the private sector. Rutan and Bigelow have been startling successes. That video of our laser-powered climber even counts amongst these (for reasons other than the space elevator). However... all these attempts are still a loooong way from what the biggest government agencies are currently capable of, and may be for some time into the future. For example, NO private attempt has put a human-capable spacecraft into orbit. That's a rather big obstacle.

Anyway, now I'm just rambling. I'm with Uruk, but I'm capable of seeing the validity in some of the points JJM might like to make...

I love these spacecraft, anyway!
 
It's probably apparent that I love it as well.

I can detach myself enough to see how the entire space shuttle-ISS loop is a closed boondoggle. Designed over time through shifting requirements, the (initially dubious anyway) science value of the ISS has vastly degraded. The shuttle is (often quoted as) the most complex machine ever built. That means that even here at the end of its life, it's still experimental. A lot of money has been spent achieving exactly the opposite of the original vision of a shuttle-space station system.

I know this. I'm not stupid.
I agree with you here. I have often said that NASA suffers from being a government agency which means it dances at the whim of congressmen and public opinion.

The Space shuttle is a perfect example of how a good idea gets perverted and mutated into a farce of its original intention. Unfortunately the same is happening to the ISS.

Better science can be done if NASA was not pulled in several directions at once and it's budget continually cut year after year.

Back in Apollo's time NASA was given a mandated and left to it's own, more or less, to a specific task. And it did it spectacularly. It had a few setbacks, but that's to be expected when you are doing something for the first time.

The best thing to do is tell NASA what you want it to do and then let it do it without political interference.



I also know that some advocates of private-sector spaceflight are overly optimistic about the current capabilities of the private sector. Rutan and Bigelow have been startling successes. That video of our laser-powered climber even counts amongst these (for reasons other than the space elevator). However... all these attempts are still a loooong way from what the biggest government agencies are currently capable of, and may be for some time into the future. For example, NO private attempt has put a human-capable spacecraft into orbit. That's a rather big obstacle.
I agree. About three quarters of those companies I mention will either dissapear or loose interest as the years go on. But a few smart and dedicated ones will persever.

I know these are all long term projects and will probably not be viable for several decades. But you have to start somewhere. The sooner you start the sooner the innovations come and the sooner the infrastructur will become available.

I have alot of faith in our ability to innovate and overcome obstacles. History provide many examples.

And Burt Rutan is planning on working towards an orbital flight.

Little steps.

Anyway, now I'm just rambling. I'm with Uruk, but I'm capable of seeing the validity in some of the points JJM might like to make...

I love these spacecraft, anyway!

I can see JJM's arguments too. And the way things have been run haven't been up to par lately. But you can't simply give it up alltogether. You also have to look at the bigger picture down the road.

I just heard on the news this morning that China and India plan to send probes to the moon. Japan already has an probe orbiting the moon and China already sent a guy up. (sub orbital I think).

More power to them. I'm all for any country going into space or the moon.

I'd just hate to think that we would become complacent and let the rest of the world leave us behind. Remember what happened to Portugal
 
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I just heard on the news this morning that China and India plan to send probes to the moon. Japan already has an probe orbiting the moon and China already sent a guy up. (sub orbital I think).

You're already behind. China just fired off its moon shot this morning, and has sent three people into orbit.

More power to them. I'm all for any country going into space or the moon.

I'd just hate to think that we would become complacent and let the rest of the world leave us behind. Remember what happened to Portugal

These arguments are a piece of U.S. patriotism, which I'll leave to Americans, but Canada has tied its human spaceflight efforts to the United States...
 
True; but if knowledge can be won without risking anybody's life, then a slower return is acceptable. Recall the horror and grief you felt -- and I know you did -- when the shuttles disintegrated.

Mind you, I'd be gung-ho as hell for manned space flight using more developed (= safer) propulsion and life-support technologies. And those better technologies can be developed without a manned space program.

I believe all I'm saying is, Take it slow, fellers. Space will be there.

Two points - science isn't the only reason to put man in space; "Earth is the cradle of civilization, but a man shouldn't stay in the cradle forever." (Tsiolkovksy). Secondly, robotics would not be as developed as they are had it not been for the competition of manned space flight, and cachet that it has with the general public. The two programs synergize each other, both in engineering and in popular politics.
 
You're already behind. China just fired off its moon shot this morning, and has sent three people into orbit.
Thanks for the heads up.

I say good for them. I'm glad to see someone's making the effort.

It would be interesting to see how far the Chinese go. They are a dedicated type of people.



These arguments are a piece of U.S. patriotism, which I'll leave to Americans, but Canada has tied its human spaceflight efforts to the United States...
Yea I know. I'm not above making emotional arguments. Although I did say I support any country's manned space program. The more we as a human race slug away at it, the further we will get in the long run.

I just hope you guys up north haven't hitched yourselves to a dieing horse. I would hate to see our manned space program disappear.
 

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