Fascist America, in 10 easy steps

[Pardalis]

It's JREF

 

[dudalb]

All I can say is that consdering the number of people..many on the political left....that Ion has managed to piss off with his "fighting for Freedom" on this page, I would say he is a very incompetent tactician. He basically denounces Americans as a bunch of idiots,and thinks that is a way to win them over to his point of view.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Good analogy 'Dorian'.

There was also the quote by a U.S. General at the beginning of the 20th. century where the concept that war is racket for a few rich while the poor suffer was shown.

I will put the E into JREF, once again, for the benefit if I=mor.

The General did not so write in the beginning of the 20th century. He was, at the beginning, embarking on his career as a warrior, which profession earned him the sobriquet Old Gimlet Eye.

After he had served various the Banana Wars and Progressive ventures:

Boxer Rebellion
Occupation of Veracruz (1914)
Occupation of Haiti
World War I

and had earned

The Medal of Honor (2)
The Marine Corps Brevet Medal
The Army Distinguished Service Medal
The Navy Distinguished Service Medal
The French Order of the Black Star

he left the service somewhat bitter for not having been selected Commandant. With the benefit of an insider's view of many of the things that went on "over the horizon" before the Good Neighbor Policy overtook the Progressive and Conservative ventures in Latin America, and elsewhere in the world, he wrote and had published War Is a Racket.

His name: Major General Smedley Darlington Butler, United States Marine Corps.

For a summary of his views on non interventionism/isolationism, see here.

http://www.fas.org/man/smedley.htm

You can get a copy of his book, War is a Racket, first printed in 1935 -- not in the beginning of the 20th century, but almost two generations into it -- at your local library, or book store.

I suggest you read it, I=mor, if you intend to refer to it. It's a most enjoyable exploration of the interface between war and politics, and what's behind politics.

DR

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

when Jefferson draw "We the people..." in the Constitution, the intend was to make U.S. ruled by a government elected from majority's will like in a democracy.

Bush thinks U.S. is a democracy.
He stated that Muslims "...envy our democracy.".

Condi Rice thinks U.S. is a democracy.
A few days ago, in Russia he gave the example of U.S. 'democracy'.

Bush and Rice are paying lip service, but are, in matters of fact, wrong.

Many people wre uncomfortable with the term democracy becuse it implied a direct democracy that conjured up Hobbesian fears of the people and mob rule.

(O'Conner and Sabato,pg 12.)

Funny, how political science texts get this right.

Oh, and Jefferson?

“A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.”

Disagrees.

Bush lying in order to get the war in Iraq going, then waring Iraq against the will of the majority of U.S. citizens -and many such examples- show that U.S. failed as a democracy.

As I said before, only Congress can do it, and so far they are not reflecting the will of the people. This is not Bush's fault. (well, it is, but not stopping it is primarily the Democrats responsbility as they were elected on that feeling.)

Incidently, if you mistype my name ONE more time, I will report you. Stop poking.

Is it possible, duddy?

By all means believe in a supreme being after it is proved in a scientific setting (like FREF's challenge) first.

Otherwise you are full of baloney.

See the thread: JREF is not an atheist organization.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Too ealry for this:

Pompous grandstanding won't cut.

For example to counter "...But the responsibility of freedom is protecting the things you don't like..." I posted in What's the Iraq War about anyway? that Bush had a censorship book written to become U.S. policy.

For example again, to counter "...And freedom is defined more by its reponsibilities than its benefits...", Bush and the Americans started a war based on lies and lack of responsability.


Freedom is what I fight for.

Not what Bush, gummy, Lizzy do.

Gosh, I don't believe I was talking to you. And do you really consider name-calling an adult form of debate?

 

[Elizabeth I]

His name: Major General Smedley Darlington Butler, United States Marine Corps.

DR

Was there really someone named Smedley or did you make that up?

 

[Ziggurat]

Was there really someone named Smedley or did you make that up?

Not just Smedley, but Smedley Darlington. Did his parents hate him?

 

[gumboot]

Ayatollah gummy has spoken:

Religious practices and displays in taxpayer's funded public buildings, that's mixing church with state.

Banning this like Chirac (France) did, that's separation of church and state.

Bush the religious doesn't do this with the U.S. Christian Fascist right-wing (see his Faith-based policies), but then he wars Iraq and threatens to war Iran (including their religions) for greedy Capitalism.

By all means take your beliefs out of a skeptics forum, and into a religious forum.

What a load of nonsense. Banning religious practices in public places is religious oppression, plain and simple. It's the absolute antithesis of freedom.

-Gumboot

 

[Schneibster]

No, Darth didn't make it up. Smedley Butler also was the leader of the march on the capitol of the veterans from WWI who had been screwed by the government, and was approached by two men allegedly working for a cartel of business people who wanted to overthrow Roosevelt during his first hundred days in office. The details are speculative since the two men could not be positively connected to the business leaders (who included John Jacob Raskob of the Morgan Guarantee Trust, and Irenee DuPont- yes, THAT DuPont) that Butler testified they had told him were funding the adventure, and they denied everything.

Further connections, albeit somewhat tenuous, exposed in a BBC documentary, lead through Morgan to Brown Bros. Harriman, UBC, and Prescott Bush, who were all involved in trade with Fritz Thyssen and the Nazis until shortly after Pearl Harbor when the Trading With The Enemy Act was passed and the whole thing was shut down by the US government. They were selling steel to the Nazis that they built tanks with.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Not just Smedley, but Smedley Darlington. Did his parents hate him?

His dad might been upset with him, since he went against his father's wishes and joined the Corps -- him being a Quaker, that's a bit off -- at age 16. On the other hand, this might have been the old "Boy Named Sue" dynamic at work: give your kid a sissy name and he'll be a fighter his whole life.

DR

 

[Darth Rotor]

Further connections, albeit somewhat tenuous, exposed in a BBC documentary, lead through Morgan to Brown Bros. Harriman, UBC, and Prescott Bush, who were all involved in trade with Fritz Thyssen and the Nazis until shortly after Pearl Harbor when the Trading With The Enemy Act was passed and the whole thing was shut down by the US government. They were selling steel to the Nazis that they built tanks with.

IIRC, the Bonus marchers were dealt with by a General named MacArthur, CSA, and two of his staff officers, Patton and Eisenhower.

As to the steel, Schneibster, how do you know the Germans didn't build U Boats with it?

Likewise, as a neutral, the US could sell to either and any belligerent, based on the laws of war as they existed at the time. Neutrality was good for business, and indeed, protecting the rights of neutrals who did not deal in armaments is one of the purposes for the rules of war as they evolved, and were practiced, from the 1700's to the 1900's.

DR

 

[Ion]

...that Ion has managed to piss off with his "fighting for Freedom" on this page,...

No kidding, duddy:

Bush and fans don't jeopardize U.S., do they?

 

[Ion]

...The General did not so write in the beginning of the 20th century. He was, at the beginning, embarking on his career as a warrior, which profession earned him the sobriquet Old Gimlet Eye.

After he had served various the Banana Wars and Progressive ventures:

Boxer Rebellion
Occupation of Veracruz (1914)
Occupation of Haiti
World War I

and had earned

The Medal of Honor (2)
The Marine Corps Brevet Medal
The Army Distinguished Service Medal
The Navy Distinguished Service Medal
The French Order of the Black Star

he left the service somewhat bitter for not having been selected Commandant. With the benefit of an insider's view of many of the things that went on "over the horizon" before the Good Neighbor Policy overtook the Progressive and Conservative ventures in Latin America, and elsewhere in the world, he wrote and had published War Is a Racket.

His name: Major General Smedley Darlington Butler, United States Marine Corps.

For a summary of his views on non interventionism/isolationism, see here.

http://www.fas.org/man/smedley.htm

You can get a copy of his book, War is a Racket, first printed in 1935 -- not in the beginning of the 20th century, but almost two generations into it -- at your local library, or book store.

I suggest you read it, I=mor, if you intend to refer to it. It's a most enjoyable exploration of the interface between war and politics, and what's behind politics.

DR

Anyway, Butler made the point that war is racket.

 

[Chaos]

IIRC, the Bonus marchers were dealt with by a General named MacArthur, CSA, and two of his staff officers, Patton and Eisenhower.

As to the steel, Schneibster, how do you know the Germans didn't build U Boats with it?

Likewise, as a neutral, the US could sell to either and any belligerent, based on the laws of war as they existed at the time. Neutrality was good for business, and indeed, protecting the rights of neutrals who did not deal in armaments is one of the purposes for the rules of war as they evolved, and were practiced, from the 1700's to the 1900's.

DR

Nevertheless, dealing with the Nazis, of all people, and feeding their war machine, is not what I would call ethically unproblematic behavior. Somehow I doubt that even the most naive person (and industrial tycoons tend to be anything but naive) could have thought that the Nazis were building all those tanks, planes and submarines just because they look so pretty.

 

[Ion]

Bush and Rice are paying lip service, but are, in matters of fact, wrong.
...
See the thread: JREF is not an atheist organization.

Tokyo is paying lip service.

Bush and Rice are not paying lip service, they send U.S. to war.

As for JREF not being an atheist organization, it challenges to prove the supernatural in a scientific setting.

No supreme divinity passes the test since the beginning of history.

Every human achievement is done with scientific evidence.

So there is no proof for the belief in a supreme divinity baloney.

...As I said before, only Congress can do it, and so far they are not reflecting the will of the people. This is not Bush's fault. (well, it is, but not stopping it is primarily the Democrats responsbility as they were elected on that feeling.)
...

Congress cannot over ride Bush on withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq, and on covering 6 million children with government healthcare because the Republicans in Congress support Bush and don't vote with the Democrats in Congress to over ride Bush.

 

[Ion]

What a load of nonsense. Banning religious practices in public places is religious oppression, plain and simple. It's the absolute antithesis of freedom.

-Gumboot

Banning religious practices in taxpayer funded places is separating church and state.

Religion is to be practiced in private places.

That's ensuring freedom.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

Tokyo is paying lip service.

Bush and Rice are not paying lip service, they send U.S. to war.

As for JREF not being an atheist organization, it challenges to prove the supernatural in a scientific setting.

No supreme divinity passes the test since the beginning of history.

Every human achievement is done with scientific evidence.

So there is no proof for the belief in a supreme divinity baloney.

Congress cannot over ride Bush on withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq, and on covering 6 million children with government healthcare because the Republicans in Congress support Bush and don't vote with the Democrats in Congress to over ride Bush.

Reported.

 

[Schneibster]

IIRC, the Bonus marchers were dealt with by a General named MacArthur, CSA, and two of his staff officers, Patton and Eisenhower.

I knew it was MacArthur. I didn't know Patton and Eisenhower were involved.

As to the steel, Schneibster, how do you know the Germans didn't build U Boats with it?

LOL, yeah, I suppose so.

Likewise, as a neutral, the US could sell to either and any belligerent, based on the laws of war as they existed at the time. Neutrality was good for business, and indeed, protecting the rights of neutrals who did not deal in armaments is one of the purposes for the rules of war as they evolved, and were practiced, from the 1700's to the 1900's.

While this is true, it's also true that the trade continued after early 1941, when Nazi Germany declared war on the US. Not only that, but there was public outcry when the trade was discovered, and amendments were passed to the Trading With the Enemy Act that eventually resulted in the seizure of UBC, after Pearl Harbor and the formal declaration of war. Not, of course, until October of 1942; and Bush, his father in law Herbert Walker, and Averill and Roland Harriman all continued to make money from and sell materiel to the Nazis until then, nine months after Pearl Harbor.

There have been allegations made in open court, substantiated by recently declassified documentation from the US National Archives, that UBC helped finance slave mining in Poland on the site of Auschwitz both prior to and after the construction of the death camp, and two Polish former slave miners for the Nazis filed suit against the US government and the heirs of Prescott Bush at The Hague in 2004. They were denied a hearing when they attempted to file in the US, on the assertion of sovereignty.

John Loftus, a former prosecutor for the Office of Special Investigations of the US Department of Justice, the department responsible for finding, charging, and deporting Nazi war criminals hiding in the US in the 1970s and 1980s, has stated that he would not hesitate to charge Prescott Bush, Averill Harriman, and Herbert Walker with providing aid and comfort to the enemy. You will recognize that phraseology as part of the legal specification of an act of treason.

All of this is public information, freely available, much of it from documents recently declassified, and available at the National Archives and the Library of Congress. It's often dismissed as a "conspiracy theory" by the Bush family and their supporters, and until the release of that documentation, it might have been- but not any more.

 

[jsfisher]

As for JREF not being an atheist organization....

Stay on topic much?

 

[Ion]

Stay on topic much?

Fishy,

you mean that you have a hard time to follow the topic:


I say that people who post support for Bush's endeavors in this alleged skeptics forum are religious moles.


As shown in that goofy post one page ago, where the belief in a "...supreme being or force of some sort..." is asserted but cannot pass testing in a scientific setting (offered in the JREF challenge, and elsewhere).
(see:

...it is possible to be a skeptic about the Paranormal and still beleive in a supreme being or force of some sort...

)


Shades of Son of Sam, who believed his dog was barking at him commands to kill people, Americans -the eternal scientifically illiterate plebe of the modern world- are putting loony words into nature's ways in hopes of getting crutches in life to supersede a painstaking learning of science, rational thinking and human responsability.

Ion, stop altering members' names. Continuing to do so past the time-stamp of this warning will cause you to be subject to further action.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: prewitt81