• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Heaven and Human Life

1337m4n

Alphanumeric Anonymous Stick Man
1337m4n
Joined
May 10, 2007
Messages
3,510
This question's been bothering me recently.





Suppose there is a such thing as Heaven. Eternal paradise. Assume for the sake of argument that it exists, and that everyone is destined for Heaven upon death unless they have committed a "mortal sin".


So, wouldn't killing somebody be doing them a favor?
 
Them, yes, but you killing them would be a mortal sin, so you are deep in the proverbial.
 
Everyone should be allowed the opportunity to grow old on Earth and wear Depends. In Heaven our orifices are spackled smooth. So I would say - don't kill people early - let them have orifices for as long as possible.
 
1337m4n said:
This question's been bothering me recently.





Suppose there is a such thing as Heaven. Eternal paradise. Assume for the sake of argument that it exists, and that everyone is destined for Heaven upon death unless they have committed a "mortal sin".


So, wouldn't killing somebody be doing them a favor?
Click to expand...

Did you consider asking them first?
 
1337m4n said:
This question's been bothering me recently.





Suppose there is a such thing as Heaven. Eternal paradise. Assume for the sake of argument that it exists, and that everyone is destined for Heaven upon death unless they have committed a "mortal sin".


So, wouldn't killing somebody be doing them a favor?
Click to expand...

Essentially I've had an idea very similar to this for quite a while. It leads me to believe that truly devout Catholics should be murdering newly baptised infants whenever possible. My reasoning is as follows:
A newly baptised infant, if it dies, goes to heaven.
If an infant grows up, there is a chance it might sin and therefore go to hell after death.
If you kill a baby, you are going to hell.
Sacrificing of oneself for the benefit of others is good, especially when you can benefit multiple people from your single sacrifice.
Therefore, the right thing for a Catholic to do is to murder as many newly baptised infants as possible, sending them all to heaven but sacrificing their own chance at salvation.

Now, it's fairly obvious why they don't actually do this, but why don't more people get into a crisis of faith over something like this?
 
It has long been my contention that heaven is not for humans. The soul is the only part of you that makes it to eternal bla bla and it is given a new body. Is the earthly human aware of his or her soul? No. The soul is a parasite using the body until death, hoping that the body has behaved itself.

Killing the body that houses the soul to get that soul into heaven is like putting the paddy wagon that brings the prisoner to the jail into a cell.

A better idea would be, as a group we keep watch on all humans, allow them to be alive and happy and prosperous, then at the nearing of death, force them through torture or coersion to accept the lord jebus. The few that get away through accidental death without being saved will be neglegible.
 
Do any Christians have an answer? I know this board isn't ALL atheist.
 
...Maybe you guys aren't the right people to be asking (not to say that your answers are wrong, but rather that I'm very curious as to how the Christian would respond). I should post this on a dedicated Christian theology/apologetics forum.

Anyone know of any?
 
God would know who would have mortally sinned had they lived. From the instant of our creation, we are whole in God's eyes. Again, God grasps time in a manner which we cannot. Our days are hours but his are eons.

This suggests to me that the condemned cannot be saved by other than spiritual means. There is no cheating in this regard.

It is a great mystery, one which will be explained to us fully after death.
 
1337 said:
So, wouldn't killing somebody be doing them a favor?
Click to expand...
You mean because they would want to experience eternal paradise right away? I can't imagine anything more horrific than eternal paradise. Think about it: eternal paradise. Eternal means forever, not just a couple of hundred years. After a few thousand years you're going to be begging for mercy. The only way you could enjoy something forever is if it was not really you who was enjoying it.

~~ Paul
 
Last edited:
Yiab said:
Essentially I've had an idea very similar to this for quite a while. It leads me to believe that truly devout Catholics should be murdering newly baptised infants whenever possible. My reasoning is as follows:
A newly baptised infant, if it dies, goes to heaven.
If an infant grows up, there is a chance it might sin and therefore go to hell after death.
If you kill a baby, you are going to hell.
Sacrificing of oneself for the benefit of others is good, especially when you can benefit multiple people from your single sacrifice.
Therefore, the right thing for a Catholic to do is to murder as many newly baptised infants as possible, sending them all to heaven but sacrificing their own chance at salvation.

Now, it's fairly obvious why they don't actually do this, but why don't more people get into a crisis of faith over something like this?
Click to expand...
Killing them would deprive them of the life experience to develop into a functioning person, and latter, a functioning spirit enitity. That is... if there is a spirit that survives death.
 
Snap said:
God would know who would have mortally sinned had they lived. From the instant of our creation, we are whole in God's eyes. Again, God grasps time in a manner which we cannot. Our days are hours but his are eons.
Click to expand...

So it doesn't matter what we do? God already knows whether we are going to be good little robots when we are created? So he knew the instant I was conceived that I was going to be an atheist? I guess that means he knew the instant my parents were conceived that they were going to raise an atheist? He also knew the instant my grandparents were conceived that they were going to raise children who were going to raise an atheist? Etcetera, etcetera, god already knew at the beginning of time who was going to be good or bad, and our whole lives are a big waste.

Wow! Truly sad to waste your life believing this.
 
Freethinker said:
So it doesn't matter what we do? God already knows whether we are going to be good little robots when we are created? So he knew the instant I was conceived that I was going to be an atheist? I guess that means he knew the instant my parents were conceived that they were going to raise an atheist? He also knew the instant my grandparents were conceived that they were going to raise children who were going to raise an atheist? Etcetera, etcetera, god already knew at the beginning of time who was going to be good or bad, and our whole lives are a big waste.
Click to expand...
Not only that, but God created the Universe this way, so he did it deliberately.
 
How about a Jewish answer?

I am no longer a Christian (though I was a Methodist minister 30 years ago), so I can't help you there; but I'll try to give you the Jewish version.

First, Jews aren't 100% sure that there is a Heaven to begin with. Most think so, but few will tell you that they think it's guaranteed. It isn't mentioned in the Torah, and was apparently absent in the early years of our religion.

Second, even those Jews who do believe in an afterlife don't think about it much. It just isn't very important. The focus of our religion is on THIS life. Whatever happens afterward, if anything, is God's business, and we tend to leave it up to Him.

Third, we don't believe that anyone knows, or can know, how God will judge anyone, not even himself--no, not even infants.

(Speaking for myself, for all I know, one must at least reach the "age of reason" and exercise some sort of autonomy before one rates a life after this one. Who knows? I certainly don't. Jews don't even ask such questions. I probably couldn't even think in those terms had I not been born a Christian.)

Fourth, to Jews, life is sacred. Period. Since this life is all we for sure have, it is evil of the purest ray serene to throw it away, either our own or anyone else's, in favor of a very uncertain assurance of a life afterward of which we know nothing. Which brings us to:

Fifth, even those Jews who do believe in an afterlife do not claim to have any idea what it might be like. There are some indications in Scripture that it's a rather dull and dreary place where nothing much happens. The party is on the first floor; why leave it to go sit in the basement with the lights out? The elevator to the penthouse might not work--or it might turn out to be a one-story house.

The short answer, I suppose, would be to say that it's a pretty stupid question.

At first I thought it was asked tongue-in-cheek, and I suppose in a sense it was; but I've only been hanging around here a short time, and I've already noticed that many of the questions that atheists ask the religious are thought to be clever traps that the stupid, benighted believers will find impossible to answer. In some cases, that might even be true; there are stupid, benighted believers in the world. There are others, though--and some of them are even Christians--who are aware that such questions merely betray a shallow, stereotypical understanding of what religion is and how it affects one's life and influences one's decisions.

As I said, I can no longer speak for Christians; but I suspect that a typical answer might be, "That would be a HORRIBLE thing to do!"

And that answer is a good deal more intelligent and meaningful, not to mention "humanistic" and "rational", than the question was.
 
cnorman18 said:
At first I thought it was asked tongue-in-cheek, and I suppose in a sense it was; but I've only been hanging around here a short time, and I've already noticed that many of the questions that atheists ask the religious are thought to be clever traps that the stupid, benighted believers will find impossible to answer. In some cases, that might even be true; there are stupid, benighted believers in the world. There are others, though--and some of them are even Christians--who are aware that such questions merely betray a shallow, stereotypical understanding of what religion is and how it affects one's life and influences one's decisions.
Click to expand...

If the question is so shallow, why didn't you answer it or apparently even read it? It says "Assume for the sake of argument that it exists..", and you spend most of your post explaining who does and doesn't believe it exists. That and the fact that is more a philosophical exercise than a religious question would tend to indicate that you didn't read the question or were simply unable to answer it so you blew smoke for several paragraphs and then complained about the question.
 
Freethinker

I said at the outset that I was offering a Jewish point of view, though unasked; and I think explaining why the question would not be applicable is a kind of answer, and a relevant one at that. Unless, of course, one is not expected to actually examine any issues raised here, but only to jump through the prescribed hoops.

I also think I provided an answer as expected in my last couple of paragraphs.

It's odd that a "freethinker" would prescribe and limit the ways in which others must think. Are you interested in other points of view, or only in playing intellectual games? If the latter, I apologize for bothering you.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom