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Cheif Palmer's Report Further Debunked

Sorry, no. They use master streams to fight big fires (i.e., streams of water that will blow through walls if used in the wrong situation).

They wouldn't have been allowed or able to use master streams in the WTC. It would also be impossible and useless to try to hit the fire from the street. I don't know anyone that would stick a monitor inside a building and with the Stand pipe system, you would suck the pipe dry. Master streams are for exterior use only when no interior attack is possible and its very dangerous to spray that amount of water in a building with a crew inside. So in a high rise fire as this one handlines were the best and only choice. If the fire was lower, we wouldn't have seen master streams used until it was deemed to dangerous to do any interior attacks.

No, "isolated" means "not close together". "Pocket" means "a small, isolated, or protected area or group".

0-2.

How small is small compared to 40,000 sq ft floor?
 
Fire fighting question (tactics really).

You have a 200 x 200 foot area with a central core (you know the WTC core). There are scattered fires burning of some indeterminate size, but obviously not real large. Above you, there is a larger fire on other floors.

To fight the fires on the floor you are on, would you deploy one or two hoses? This is irrespective of whether you are connecting the hoses to separate standpipes (one in each stairwell) -- if need be assume access to all three stairwells and standpipes.

With the hoses deployed would you send them circling around the central core fighting fires together (i.e. mutual suppport) or would you send one hose clock-wise and the other counter-clockwise (i.e. attacking the fires from both sides), or would you use just one hose and keep the other ready in case of some unexpected fire breaking out?

Given the size of the floor, I wonder if Chief Palmer would have deployed two hoses (the minimum he called for) in any case, unless the fires he could see were absolutely trivial.
 
It's worth pointing out that when Palmer made this radio call he was still in the stairwell and therefore could not have seen the entire floor.

-Gumboot
 
Let me tell the uninformed something about a 2 1/2" hose. They can be quite energetic when charged. Hold it wrong and it can slam you around like a rag doll. That's why, on most nozzles, the handle is pushed forward to turn it off, and one hand stays on the top of the nozzle. I have seen more than one newbie go waltzing with a hose because he held it wrong. (Okay, okay, one of them was me. Gimme a break. At least I learned something from it.) We are talking about an awful lot of water, at any rate.

Now, we must also bear in mind that what Palmer saw was probably not the entire floor. We don't know how much smoke there was on the floor, what kind of dividers there were or what was burning. We just know that he needed more than one line to put it out.

Now, since heat rises and, consequentially, fire spreads upward far more easily than it travels downward, unless transported by burning liquids flowing down stairs or through gaps in a floor, the fact that there was any fire at all on #78 indicates that the fires were far from going out of their own accord. They should, by the CT reasoning, have nearly burned themselves out already.

Given the extent of the fires, even bringing in off-duty personnel left them short-handed, and it would be an unwise use of manpower to assign two teams to a floor where the fire was dying already.

There would be a minimum of two men on each line, perhaps three, as per local SOPs. Two handle the line, one watches what is going on in most cases.

Ergo, there is nothing in Palmer's last words to indicate that this was a minor situation.
 
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One of the reasons FDNY use 2 1/2 " lines (most others use 1 3/4") is because of size of
and heavy fire loads found in many NY buildings. Worse thing can do is use too small
a line - few years back were called in to back up other town for structure fire in house.
Started as burning TV in basement rec room, chief (who shall remain nameless , as
will the town) started off with booster line normally used for small brush/trash fires.
Fire began getting out of hand, started yelling for 1 3/4", by time got it into action
fire was out of control, next 2 1/2" "blitz" line. Again not enough, we wound up at
scene pumping into master streams from outside (surround and drown). Heard everything
over radio.
 

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