Nuclear Energy - I need to vent/rant

If there was no global warming, would you still favor luddititry?

Not with anywhere near the same zeal.

I thought the off-grid house was cool long before I was really worried about global warming. But it's definitely global warming that gives ludditry some urgency.

By the way, thanks for the term ludditry. I like it.
 
Actually, I suspect the reason Arizona has only recently experienced a surge in population has more to do with low agricultural productivity than availability of air conditioners. It's an arid climate.

Ah, yes, you truly are a luddite. You can suspect anything you want but that does not make it so.

Cheap energy just made it possible to feed yourself in previously uninhabitable areas, either by pumping water to areas where it had previously been inadequate or by trucking food in from more productive areas.

Nope. Sorry. Water is the currency of farming in seemingly inhospitable areas. The Imperial Valley, California; the Yakima Valley, Washington; and the small amount of arable land in AZ are all arid desert and were reclaimed long before the advent of electricity or fossil fuels.


By contrast, Ontario's agricultural productivity is $30 billion. So we actually do grow our own lettuce. In fact, we export $6.9 billion worth annually to the United States, more than Arizona's entire agricultural output.

Lettuce was an example. How are your dates?

So the real question is, when cheap oil is gone, will Arizonans still be able to afford to truck in lettuce from places like Ontario.

No. I suspect that, if Arizonans consume ONT lettuce, it's due to availability and seasonality. Transport of foodstuffs is relatively new. We used to put up with no fruit for the majority of the winter and can go back to that if need be. Frankly, I was wondering where some of the off-taste crap was coming from.

I don't want to tell people where to live. I'm only observing that the status quo cannot continue. So it is in the best interests of Arizonans themselves to get their house in order. I'm happy to leave you to your own solutions.

Not to worry. Just don't visit. We don't like luddites here.
 
Let me just ask one question: Does anyone have any ideas for carbon-free energy that are not nuclear-based and which can provide the energy currently needed by civilization?

Depends what you mean by "can".

Solar, wind and wave power are all scalable, it's just a matter of building enough of them. They're as close to carbon free as you can get.

In any case, nuclear power is only carbon-free if you can miraculously mine, transport and refine uranium ore without burning fossil fuels, and good luck with that.
 
As I've said before, it's almost impossible to get an unbiased assessment of nuclear. I've avoided Sierra Club, Greenpeace, WWF, the Suzuki Foundation and the Ontario Clean Air Alliance reports because they are fundamentally anti-nuclear. Similarly, things written by power worker unions or the nuclear industry are highly suspect for swinging the other way.

To my knowledge, the Pembina Institute is not anti-nuclear in principle, though Mark Winfield, the principal author of their nuclear assessment, would personally prefer not to see it in the mix, mostly because investing in new nuclear would in itself imply the largest budget item ever seen in Ontario, and would leave everyone with little appetite for additional spending in things that would have more immediate effects.

In addition a huge part of the objection is that nuclear plants are almost always supported by coal. That's certainly the objection of the Ontario Clean Air Alliance, whose principal goal is to get rid of coal. They vastly prefer burning natural gas to building more nuclear plants.

Energy Probe is another organization that tries to balance a lot of things. They object to nuclear because it's expensive and unreliable. They are big into full-cost accounting, but find that the true costs of nuclear are incalculable.

Ralph Torrie has headed up the assessment of meeting Canada's Kyoto requirements for the Round Table on the Environment and the Economy. In personal communications with me, he and other members of the team (including Glen Murray, who heads the Round Table) stated that they had been instructed to include nuclear in the mix. I've seen his resulting wedge diagrams. You can see them here:

http://www.nrtee-trnee.ca/eng/publi...ote/section4-ecc-wedge-advisory-note-eng.html

Nuclear is represented by the very thin dark blue line. According to Ralph Torrie, it's also one of the most expensive items in the mix. Neither Torrie nor Murray wanted it in there. They were following orders. So if Canada, with its history of developing nuclear and availability of uranium, can only achieve such paltry GHG reductions at high cost, what's the point for anyone else?

Now here's a site that sort of straddles the two sides. The Consumers Council of Canada has concluded that Ontario's CANDUs are potentially good reactors but suffer from poor management. So maybe that's how we reconcile your views with others.

http://www.consumerscouncil.com/site/Consumers_Council_of_Canada_69/pdf/candu.pdf

If you live in Ontario, you're constantly bombarded by threats of power outages from nuclear plants down. You're right, a lot of it is scheduled maintenance or retrofits, but it still requires running coal plants to the maximum and importing coal-generated power from Ohio. The climate doesn't care about the reason. So if that's the reason for the different interpretations of capacity factors, I'd say the Pembina assessment is more sensible than the one you sent me from the Canadian Nuclear Society. And to an Ontarian who pays attention to these things, an insistence that the CANDUs have a great performance record only makes me think "Well, how bad are the others?". It damns all nuclear.

Nor is it fair, I don't think, to trot out the fact that in the US, nuclear has 12-14% of the installed capacity but generates 20% of the electricity. The reason for this is not because nuclear is reliable but because it cannot easily be turned off. So any demand fluctuations have to be made up for by shutting off other sources.

So maybe that's how we reconcile the two versions of the capacity factors. One side counts the maintenance and retrofit times while the other doesn't. Nuclear plants being big and bulky, the closure of a plant has enormous implications. And if you want to maintain high demand while you retrofit, you burn a lot of coal. At least part of that demand could have been filled by investment in conservation and renewables instead. But nuclear plants require the demand to remain high. They are inherently hostile to conservation measures. And because they're so big, they require an alternate generation source that can be turned on at will. I mentioned in an earlier post that neither nuclear nor wind are dispatchable, but wind lends itself far better to storage backup, because it would be very unusual for 1/5 of the wind turbines in the Province to suddenly stop moving. By contrast it's not at all unusual for 1/5 of the nuclear plants to be off, so they need generation backup, not storage.

The wedge graph that you indicate about reduction of greenhouse gases..I don't understand what it is trying to indicate--I will have to look at it more.

I am not insisting that Candu reactors have a great performance record...the capacity factors say so-- as it does in the US. Capacity factors can't lie.

Capacity factor includes all maintenance and retrofit items. Availability factor is different and accounts for units required to swing. So, the facts are that nuclear has better capacity factors than coal, oil, natural gas and hydro making it more reliable--any denial of this is just manipulation of the data. All plants are shutdown periodically for maintenance--when your coal plants are shutdown, then nuclear is picking up the slack and reducing greenhouse emissions. And since nuclear has a higher capacity factor in canada, the support is the other way around.

All grid systems need spining reserve. Typically, a utility needs as much spinning reserve as their largest unit in case that unit trips--on the largest possible load day. If you are having problems in Ontario, the utility doesn't have enough reserve and needs to install some capacity--and I would bet that is not just do to nuclear plants...it would involve all plants. A large plant tripping coal or nuclear will cause problems.

Nuclear plants and large coal plants are base loaded because they have the cheapest generation cost---especially nuclear since the fuel is very cheap. Now, gas turbines and co-gen plants along with smaller units are used to swing with the load. Gas turbines are inefficient, but easy to start up and shut down. In the US, boiling water reactors can swing with load if needed but PWRs are not as good at it. However, France had been load following with PWR nuclear plants for years. The demand does not need to remain high for nuclear plants to operate efficiently.

Base load is about 60% of daily load so most plants are used for base loading. So it is fair to say that 12-14% of nuclear power provides 20% of US electricity because it is a fact--if the installed capacity was over 60%, you would have a point. (canada has a similar nuclear capacity percent) During normal and peak loads, all the big nukes and big coal plants would be running full power 24/7. These plants are shutdown either for maintenance or refueling when the load drops--typically in the US during fall or spring--so it is standard for some nuke plants to be shutdown during these times--but they will be running full in the summer.


You've mentioned industry, and I sent a rambling response. In Ontario, 2% of the electricity customers consume 50% of the energy. Many of these users demand steady power 24/7 and are suited to nuclear. But the average Ontarian subsidizes them because they get the cheapest price on power by far. Which is part of the reason why it is not in the interest of industry to have residential and commercial customers attain 5-fold reductions in energy use. In order to support the industry to the same degree, they'd have to pay 5 times the cost for their energy, and they'd raise a stink. I think this is true for most of the world. I'm not sure it's a healthy model we want to continue with.

In a previous post you cited 6-year building plans for new nuclear plants.

I should point out that the buildout plan for Ontario anticipates at least a 10-year build cycle. They are really only expecting new reactors online by 2025. In addition, every nuclear reactor built in Ontario has been behind schedule and over budget. Some have been completed many years later than planned, so even these plans may be optimistic. Here's the quote from the OPA in their pitch to sell a nuclear component to their plan:


See the source here:

http://www.powerauthority.on.ca/Storage/41/3628_REv._IPSP_brochure_Feb._2007_for_Web_site.pdf

I would also dispute the idea that we can count on 6-year construction periods anywhere else, either. The only reactor in the Western world commissioned after Chernobyl was 18 months behind schedule at 18 months into construction. That's quite a feat. There's a whole list of others. The article below summarizes the situation, with the conclusion:

http://www.tmia.com/News/FinnishNucFiasco.htm

The AECL states that even with cost overruns and stranded debt repayment it's still the cheapest energy available. But they don't include insurance, decommissioning and waste storage costs. And I've never seen an assessment of what it would cost to properly dispose of the tailings.

Initial construction of next generation plants in the US will probably take about 10 years. However, that doesn't mean the time cannot be shortened in the future...experience is paramount and we don't have that now as much of is has been lost in retirement of engineers. The latest designs expect a 4 year construction cycle--but I don't expect that to occur. I expect cost overruns and other issues--but all large projects tend to have cost overruns..just look at the A380. This is still not a reasonable arguement for stopping nuclear power--again, the world needs long term solutions. The planet is running out of energy and there is not a single solution that will solve it. Burning natural gas or any petroleum product to make electricity is the most expensive method and a horrible waste of that natural resource.

When I was in Korea, the time from first concrete to full power was 6 years. There was 2-3 years of engineering done prior to first concrete. They are buiding standardized plants now and can build plants within schedules or with only short delays. I was impressed with their commitment and execution and they have continued with this type of success on about 6 more units. So it is obviously possible.

On a side note, recently our Prime Minister acquiesced to a US sponsored plan to return spent fuel to the country where it originated. As the number 1 producer of uranium worldwide, Canada would end up with a nuclear waste storage problem of enormous proportions. The result is a movement to stop any further expansion of uranium mining and export. That would raise the price of uranium substantially worldwide. I can only imagine that Australians have similar concerns and pressures.

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/254159

The purpose of this agreement is to ensure that spent fuel and radioactive waste is carefully treated and accounted for. It does not mean that Canada will have to take spent fuel made from uranium that is exported. Canada only has to worry about their own plants and their own fuel.

glenn
 
I am not insisting that Candu reactors have a great performance record...the capacity factors say so-- as it does in the US. Capacity factors can't lie.

Then how do you account for the different capacity factors cited by Pembina and the reference you gave me? Not picking a fight here, just trying to understand. It's hard for me to believe the Pembina Institute makes stuff up. So if there's an accepted standard way of measuring capacity factors, then either my source or yours is lying. I trust Pembina. They are highly regarded, even (perhaps especially) in the energy industry.

In the US, boiling water reactors can swing with load if needed but PWRs are not as good at it. However, France had been load following with PWR nuclear plants for years.

I've been told by pro-nuclear energy specialists that nuclear has very little room to swing with load and cannot be the sole source. Are they wrong? Do you have a reference I can go to?

Base load is about 60% of daily load so most plants are used for base loading. So it is fair to say that 12-14% of nuclear power provides 20% of US electricity because it is a fact--if the installed capacity was over 60%, you would have a point.

I'm sure it is a fact. I didn't dispute that. I'm saying it's not fair to use that as an indication of the reliability of nuclear. It is equally an indication of the inflexibility of nuclear. If you need the power from a nuclear plant, you turn it on. Then you leave it on night and day and other things have to get shut off, even if they're safer or less expensive or closer to the load.

(canada has a similar nuclear capacity percent)

Ontario's is higher. It's made up for by the fact that Quebec and Manitoba have a lot of hydro. The nukes are concentrated in Ontario. Nuclear proponents point out that 50% of our installed generation capacity is nuclear, that we depend on it. Environmentalists point out that in the end only 32% of our electricity comes from nuclear. Which suggests that Canadian capacity factors for nuclear are worse, but again I'm glad to leave the discrepancy for you to resolve. I'd like to learn, too.

Our coal plants are critical for following load. We're only now installing natural gas. They provide some baseload power, but in Ontario the absolutely cheapest power is still from Adam Beck in Niagara Falls. As you say, cheapest power tends to run 24/7, as Adam Beck does most of the time.

The purpose of this agreement is to ensure that spent fuel and radioactive waste is carefully treated and accounted for. It does not mean that Canada will have to take spent fuel made from uranium that is exported. Canada only has to worry about their own plants and their own fuel.

Whatever the purpose, Canadians don't want that responsibility. Just because we have the resource doesn't mean we want to keep track of all the waste. I can't read the future, but I can tell you it is a potential political storm on the horizon.
 
Then how do you account for the different capacity factors cited by Pembina and the reference you gave me? Not picking a fight here, just trying to understand. It's hard for me to believe the Pembina Institute makes stuff up. So if there's an accepted standard way of measuring capacity factors, then either my source or yours is lying. I trust Pembina. They are highly regarded, even (perhaps especially) in the energy industry.

http://www.cns-snc.ca/nuclear_info/candu_performance.html This link shows the lifetime capacity factors of candu reactors. If you look at it, some of the older reactors show a poor capacity factor--not uncommon for any type of tecnology--early design issues. It also provides the definition of capacity factor in the first sentence. Using the formula outlined, there is no room for different interpretations. This is why I believe that Pembina cherry picked the worst data and didn't consider improvements over the last 40 years or the sucess of more modern designs. Capacity factors are standard over the industry and that is why I indicate they don't lie.


I've been told by pro-nuclear energy specialists that nuclear has very little room to swing with load and cannot be the sole source. Are they wrong? Do you have a reference I can go to?

First, I am not familiar with the operation of Candu plants and their ability to swing. I can only discuss PWR and BWR technology with essentially all of my hands-on experience being on PWR plants--both commercial and navy nukes.

In general, nuclear plants have been used for base loading due to fuel costs. And it is much easier to run a reactor at 100% power--however that applies to any large plant including coal, oil or natural gas. As I said, about 60% of electricity use is base load and therefore there is no reason to swing the nuke plants unless you have over 60% installed capacity. France has an installed capacity of about 80% nuclear. They have designs that can swing up and down in a day.

This is more of an engineering issue than a problem nuclear plants. Reactors can actually change power levels easy and can swing with the grid load. PWR plants typically have a negative temperature coeficient that makes them self adjusting to power change--as the power increases, so does the water temperature...this causes the plant power to turn down in power--self limiting. Navy nuke plants are designed to change power very quickly and do so--believe me--very quickly. Commercial reactors are designed to be able to change power to follow daily loads--typically 2-3% per minute, but that is much faster than needed. These are just control and small design issues. The facts are that nuclear plants can change power easier that fossil plants.

Actually, a modular design could be used for certain nuke plants--they would be easy to swing. I can't say that nuclear could be a sole source--just don't have any evidence. In France, there may be times when they are full nuclear in the spring and fall when the load is lower however. A modular design would make swinging easy. Four reactors connected to one turbine...shutdown and startup each as needed.

difficult to find links...I know the reactors can handle it from experience.

links I found:

http://www.electricitypolicy.org.uk/pubs/wp/eprg0710.pdf

This is the best one I found--it goes into reasonable detail. See page 7 through 9. This describe the design capability. Earlier pages go into the reactor physics.

http://www.iepa.com/ETAAC/ETAAC HANDOUTS 7-2-07/Lynn Walters nuclear.ppt

This is a power point, but from a group dedicated to renewable fuels. It does give a very brief overview of load following.

http://www.atomicinsights.com/Guests/Cuttler - Case for nuclear.pdf This relates to Canada, but is "lite" on details.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_France OK, wiki is not the best, but it does give a reasonable overview of a program that really works well. It briefly indicates that capacity factors are lower due to load following in the technical section.

In addition, some reactor designs can take full load rejections and remain online. This exists right now as I have performed full load rejection tests on plants. This is something fossils systems cannot handle.

I'm sure it is a fact. I didn't dispute that. I'm saying it's not fair to use that as an indication of the reliability of nuclear. It is equally an indication of the inflexibility of nuclear. If you need the power from a nuclear plant, you turn it on. Then you leave it on night and day and other things have to get shut off, even if they're safer or less expensive or closer to the load.

I don't think there can be anything better than capacity factor in determining reliability of electrical power. It is literally the amout of energy that is produced divided by what is theoretically possible since the plant was declared commercial. For base load operation, the plants with the highest capacity factor have the highest reliability. I really don't see how this can be disputed. For units that swing, the availability factor can provide reliability numbers--as the formula account for swing operations. Again, with base load of about 60%, nuclear and coal are used for base load and nuclear comes up better. Base loading nukes will always be preferable from an economic view due to the fuel cost.

Ontario's is higher. It's made up for by the fact that Quebec and Manitoba have a lot of hydro. The nukes are concentrated in Ontario. Nuclear proponents point out that 50% of our installed generation capacity is nuclear, that we depend on it. Environmentalists point out that in the end only 32% of our electricity comes from nuclear. Which suggests that Canadian capacity factors for nuclear are worse, but again I'm glad to leave the discrepancy for you to resolve. I'd like to learn, too.

Our coal plants are critical for following load. We're only now installing natural gas. They provide some baseload power, but in Ontario the absolutely cheapest power is still from Adam Beck in Niagara Falls. As you say, cheapest power tends to run 24/7, as Adam Beck does most of the time.

I made a mistake. I wanted to point out that Canada's installed nuclear capacity is about 34% of the total, however, the contribution from nuclear is about 50% of the total electrical energy due to high capacity factors. This is similar to the US. Coal plants tend to have lower line times compared with nuclear plants.

Again, using natural gas to make electricity to me is a crime...such a valuble resource should be reserved for heating homes.

From this link that was in a previous post:

http://www.powerauthority.on.ca/Storage/41/3628_REv._IPSP_brochure_Feb._2007_for_Web_site.pdf

page 9 indicates that nuclear provide 50% of the electrical demand and page 8 shows that nuclear is 34% of the installed capacity.

Whatever the purpose, Canadians don't want that responsibility. Just because we have the resource doesn't mean we want to keep track of all the waste. I can't read the future, but I can tell you it is a potential political storm on the horizon.

The purpose is to ensure that enriched uranium and waste is not going to the wrong people. Essentially whoever enriches the uranium has to track the usage. It is really an issue for Russia and the US.

Finally, I don't consider this a fight--I hope you don't either. We are both presenting reasonable data and reasonable arguements. I never have intention to pick a fight nor do I intend to be harsh...it would serve zero purpose.


glenn
 
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PWR plants typically have a negative temperature coeficient that makes them self adjusting to power change--as the power increases, so does the water temperature...this causes the plant power to turn down in power--self limiting.

Gotta' love that resonance escape probability!
 
Just a quick observation - "base load" is to a significant extent a self-fulfilling prophecy. Consumers are encouraged to heat water and perform other high-energy tasks at "off-peak" times to spread the need for electricity out a bit, but this is precisely because it is more convenient to run conventional power plants all the time. Thus the "base load" is artificially high.

If the bulk of our electricity came from sources like solar and wind, we would adjust our usage habits so that we used more electricity when there was more electicity being generated.

Things like factories running 24/7 create a real base load which is insensitive to changes in how we supply power, but a lot of what pro-nuke spokspeople call "base load" is no such thing.
 
I'm not sure where I fall on the pro/con nuke spectrum. What I DO know is that as an American, I don't trust American companies to build a nuclear power plant.
 
If America ever gets to build another Nuclear Power Plant, it will probably be made in China by then.
 
If America ever gets to build another Nuclear Power Plant, it will probably be made in China by then.

For the sake of quality, that might be a good thing... someone will probably actually keep an eye on it if it is made in China.
 
I'm not sure where I fall on the pro/con nuke spectrum. What I DO know is that as an American, I don't trust American companies to build a nuclear power plant.
But you trust them to run coal power plants?

So far, I've seen a lot of claims that wind and solar can somehow magically fulfill the majority of power requirements, and that it can replace coal or nuclear somehow.

I've yet to see any evidence for such a thing.
 
So far, I've seen a lot of claims that wind and solar can somehow magically fulfill the majority of power requirements, and that it can replace coal or nuclear somehow.

I've yet to see any evidence for such a thing.

There doesn't seem to be any magic involved at all. Wind and solar absolutely work. My understanding is that the only problems are scale and a willingness to make the initial investment.
 
Not particularly... except that a screwed-up coal plant won't spew radioactive material far and wide.
Neither would a modern nuclear power plant.

Coal also would spew up all sorts of nasty material that wouldn't die down, ever. Nuclear radiation actually fades away.

It would probably just catch on fire or shut down.
Or spew up nasty chemicals such as mercury? I'm sure that's healthy and everything.

By the way, from the estimations I've seen, far more people have died of hydro-electric power than have died from nuclear power... and that's without taking in modern safety considerations.

So... why do you think that modern nuclear power plants are even close to being built the same as Chernobyl? Do you have evidence that they would "explode" in the same way?

By the way, if you really think that nuclear power plants are going to explode at any moment, maybe you should work to get rid of the plants that have been built all across the world, including the U.S., that have done no such thing.
 
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Do you have evidence that they would "explode" in the same way?
Nope. I have a feeling that they might blow up in new and exciting ways! Or, you know, just crash and not work and cost billions on the clean-up and not give us any more power.:D
 
There doesn't seem to be any magic involved at all. Wind and solar absolutely work.
Sure. Solar works alright. That 4 kw a year in the largest solar panel in Germany, equivalent to a train running it's motor, is REALLY efficient.

My understanding is that the only problems are scale and a willingness to make the initial investment.
My understanding is that there's this claim that if we just invest and scale it up, that it will automatically go from providing .4% of the world's electricity to not only surpass the 6.5% of nuclear, but also surpass that into 80%, or even somehow, magically, 100%.

(By the way, that .4% may not include hydroelectric, but it also includes geothermal, which can only be built in certain areas)

I'm sorry, but just claiming it won't make it so. But if you hope hard enough, maybe it will work.
 

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