Who peer reviews Mark Roberts work?

P.S: As for your offer that this debate should also, in parallel, appear in the Journal of 911 Studies, two questions spring to mind:

(1) Do you speak for the editorial board of this journal?

(2) Can you guarantee that they will, in fact, make an open-ended commitment to publish any letter that Mark Roberts sends them and to let no-one reply to his letters except you?

This is the debate that you claim to want. Can you honestly tell us that they would allow it?

You seem to have quite a strange idea of what a scientific journal is. This is simply not what they do.


This is what was done with Judy Wood. Her letters were published without moderation on the Journal of 911 Studies. I did ask Dr. Jones to do the same for Mark Roberts and he agreed. I told Mark this a while ago.
 
To my previous remarks, I should add that even if the Journal of Debunking 911 Conspiracy Theories did publish your letter, they would not do so with a guarantee that the only person allowed to write back would be Mark Roberts, because no journal ever does anything like that.

If you insist on a one-on-one debate, then there is no journal in the world that will offer you that facility.

On the other hand, chillzero has just offered you facilities for exactly such a debate as you say you want. Go for it.

It doesn't have to be one-on-one in the true sense but a fast moving forum is not where it should take place and Chillzero said there may be times where no moderation is available. It is the Journals or perhaps GreNME's proposal which are the only options I would consider fair.
 
It's as "fair and rational" as my offer to use the Oval Office as the venue for our arm-wrestling match.

Should I call you a "coward" until you agree to do so?

You seem to be forgetting that it is Mark Roberts who is the one who attacked me in an egregious manner not the other way around. He seems to only like to fight when it is on his terms though.
 
It doesn't have to be one-on-one in the true sense but a fast moving forum is not where it should take place and Chillzero said there may be times where no moderation is available. It is the Journals or perhaps GreNME's proposal which are the only options I would consider fair.

What I said was there may be times when no moderators are available to approve posts - we aren't all set up on shifts to provide 24 hour cover.

What this means is, you submit your response, and have to wait until a moderator approves it before anyone can view it. That's all. Anybody else posting on the thread would have their responses deleted, and so those would never be visible to interfere with the debate.

Therefore, the speed of the debate would mostly be dictated by you and Gravy, and would be slower - not faster - than you are concerned about. Posts would not appear until a moderator approved them, and as I said we can set up rules that neither of you post until the other has had their post approved for viewing, one at a time.
 
I would really like to know.
facts, rational thinking, evidence and logical thought; questions

since your work is flawed, due to lack of facts and junk science; is this why you attack Mark? (real, have you fixed all the errors in your paper?)
 
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You seem to be forgetting that it is Mark Roberts who is the one who attacked me in an egregious manner not the other way around.
When I was an English major, they didn't teach me that egregious means "completely substantiated" and "irrefutable." Did I go to a bad school?

He seems to only like to fight when it is on his terms though.
A lie, or just a mistake? You well know that the supervisor of "peer review" of the Journal of 9/11 Stundies twice fled from debate opportunities with me. The first time I offered him the choice of time, place, debate topics, and moderators. The second time was to accept his challenge to debate on the Tom Hartmann show, and again I offered to limit the debate to topics with which he was comfortable. The fearless truth leader ran like a scared bunny.

Do they teach intellectual cowardice at JONES, or is it a prerequisite for being a reviewer?
 
What I said was there may be times when no moderators are available to approve posts - we aren't all set up on shifts to provide 24 hour cover.

What this means is, you submit your response, and have to wait until a moderator approves it before anyone can view it. That's all. Anybody else posting on the thread would have their responses deleted, and so those would never be visible to interfere with the debate.

Therefore, the speed of the debate would mostly be dictated by you and Gravy, and would be slower - not faster - than you are concerned about. Posts would not appear until a moderator approved them, and as I said we can set up rules that neither of you post until the other has had their post approved for viewing, one at a time.

I prefer GreNME's proposal, which would relieve any concern over moderation. It should simply be paper vs. paper not continuous posts. GreNME's proposal accomplishes that just as a journal would.
 
That's fair enough, and I am not seeking to persuade you otherwise. I just wanted to clarify the options, and what a moderated thread is. It seemed to be a bit misunderstood.
 
When I was an English major, they didn't teach me that egregious means "completely substantiated" and "irrefutable." Did I go to a bad school?

A lie, or just a mistake? You well know that the supervisor of "peer review" of the Journal of 9/11 Stundies twice fled from debate opportunities with me. The first time I offered him the choice of time, place, debate topics, and moderators. The second time was to accept his challenge to debate on the Tom Hartmann show, and again I offered to limit the debate to topics with which he was comfortable. The fearless truth leader ran like a scared bunny.

Do they teach intellectual cowardice at JONES, or is it a prerequisite for being a reviewer?

Your quickness to call people liars is substantiated.

Do you accept GreNME's offer of the use of his site for a letter vs. letter written debate with me concerning your criticisms of my paper?
 
This is what was done with Judy Wood. Her letters were published without moderation on the Journal of 911 Studies. I did ask Dr. Jones to do the same for Mark Roberts and he agreed. I told Mark this a while ago.
Let's be clear. Are you saying that the answers to both my questions are "yes"?

Do you speak for the Journal of 911 Studies? Will they really guarantee that we can publish our opinions in their journal, in every issue, at whatever length we choose, so long as Mark Roberts signs his name to it?
 
Your quickness to call people liars is substantiated.

Do you accept GreNME's offer of the use of his site for a letter vs. letter written debate with me concerning your criticisms of my paper?
Tony:
Why don't you start? Mark has already made some criticisms.
 
Okay, given that the debate thing is going nowhere (Tony will not debate except in a manner that would require Mark Roberts to tacitly acknowledge J911S as a legitimate venue, when that legitimacy is the very issue being debated), I'm going to return to the OP issue of peer review of Gravy's work.

My own overall impression of Mark's work is a bit different from others' interpretations here. Some have compared him to an investigative journalist, but I propose a different interpretation that I think is better. Mark's work is, basically, the work of a historian.

Please don't misunderstand; to my knowledge Mark has never claimed to have the training or the credentials of an academic historian. But that's the best characterization of the work he's done: collecting all available evidence from primary and secondary sources, critically evaluating it, and from it producing the most objectively accurate possible historical narrative. That the historical events in question are recent is irrelevant (except insofar as it allows the possibly confusing juxtaposition of historical scholarship and journalism). That the narrative that Mark's work supports is not an original one is also IMHO irrelevant (but see below).

I have great respect for good historians, and for the difficulty of the endeavor they undertake. Unlike most scientists, they cannot resolve an uncertainty by repeating an experiment with better observing instruments in place. They are limited to the available documentary evidence, and finding and accessing even the evidence known to exist (let alone revealing evidence not previously known) can be a monumental task. Like scientists, their work, no matter how thorough, is always in jeopardy of being overturned by new evidence. And like scientists, they aspire to discover objective truth. Literary critics (who must also contend with a limited pool of information to work from) can endlessly debate either side of the question of whether Shakespeare's Hamlet was really insane or faking it, with no fear of ever being proved wrong -- because Shakespeare's Hamlet never existed. Historians don't have that luxury. Though they can never establish the truth of a historical narrative beyond all doubt (and the good ones acknowledge this), an objective truth does in fact exist. Either Roosevelt had actionable advance warning of Pearl Harbor or he did not. All the debate in the world will not alter past events into one possible course, if they actually took another. All that debate can accomplish is who has made the best case for their narrative being the correct one.

Of course, there are many bad historians. Historical scholarship sometimes seems to attract people with sociopolitical or religious ideologies and agendas to promote. These people take advantage of the fundamental difficulty of honest history to mask intellectually dishonest work -- and thereby increase the difficulty of the endeavor for everyone else. Many of those dishonest practices are familiar to this forum: cherry-picking evidence, taking evidence out of context, biased assessment of the relative validity of evidence, outright fabricated evidence, unsupported claims, and logical fallacies of all types. In the ghetto of "post-modern" historical scholarship, the claim of consensual reality prevails, a self-serving solipsistic view that plays into the hands of those who strive not to reveal the historical narrative but to alter it to their own ends -- and argue their right to do so. (From there, it's not a very great leap to the idea that if one can manipulate an online poll to show x% support for something, that that public support magically becomes reality.)

With all this in mind, I'd love to see Mark's work reviewed by honest scholarly historians well-versed in comprehensive collection and assessment of primary sources (David Hackett Fischer comes to mind). I think it's strong enough not only to withstand, but to merit, such review. I don't see anything wrong with calling it a "peer review" either. Though Mark hasn't claimed credentials as a historian, if he's educated himself sufficiently about the relevant history and practiced appropriate scholarship, then other historians are his peers.

Here's what the Council of the American Historical Association says about peer review:

Peer review means that a manuscript or research proposal will be read and evaluated by other scholars with expertise in the time period, subject matter, languages, and documents with which the author deals.


I would suggest that the relevant subject matter expertise include the methodologies of international criminal and intelligence investigation, construction codes and practices, terrorism, the aviation and insurance industries, post-Cold War U.S. military history (readiness, force disposition, etc.), and the psychology of witness reactions in traumatic circumstances.

The AHA statement continues:

As peers of the author in a specialized field, these reviewers provide analysis to the review boards of agencies on the scholarly significance of the article: Does the author display knowledge of existing work in the field? Does the research design, processes and methodologies, for example, conform with professional standards? Does the author advance an original argument and provide valid evidence to support the work? If particular areas are weak or absent in the presentation, the peer reviewers suggest revisions that will strengthen the project and call for resubmission before funding is awarded or a manuscript is accepted for publication.


The "original argument" provision is the only one here that might give historian reviewers pause about Mark's work. Indeed, I personally wonder why originality is important; if evidence suports an old argument instead of an original one is that not worthwhile? I can see not wishing to waste time repeating welll-known historical information (especially where journal papers or funded research is concerned), but I don't think that applies to Mark's work, given that it's addressing the arguments made by a vocal (if not very large or very respectable) historical-revisionist "movement."

Bad 9/11 history concerns me far more than bad 9/11 science. The cost of false history is bad decisions. The cost of bad decisions, in a technological age, cannot be overestimated.

With or without credentials, with or without peer review, honest historians, among whom I number Mark Roberts, are to be treasured.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
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You seem to be forgetting that it is Mark Roberts who is the one who attacked me in an egregious manner not the other way around. He seems to only like to fight when it is on his terms though.
But this is not an answer to my post. It has nothing to do with my post. I'm not talking about which of you is right or wrong --- I don't yet know what specific thing the two of you are having a spat about.

I'm just trying to explain to you that no scientific journal will allow you to use their pages as a venue for your argument in the manner that you've proposed. Insisting that you'll only argue with him in this format is like me insisting that I will arm-wrestle you, but only in the Oval Office.
 
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Your quickness to call people liars is substantiated.

Do you accept GreNME's offer of the use of his site for a letter vs. letter written debate with me concerning your criticisms of my paper?

If your next post isn't a full, rational explanation of the points I raised in post 134, you go on ignore.
How in the world can you expect me to spend more time on your nonsense when you can't answer simple questions? Clear enough, Tony Szamboti, mechanical engineer?

Here's the link for the fifth time: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3054359&postcount=134
 
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It doesn't have to be one-on-one in the true sense ...
OK, so you will now waive the condition that no-one else can chip in.

Fine. Then just start a thread here about whatever your beef is.

But there is no journal in the world that will turn themselves into a debating forum just 'cos you want them to.
 
If your next post isn't a full, rational explanation of the points I raised in post 134, you go on ignore.
How in the world can you expect me to spend more time on your nonsense when you can't answer simple questions? Clear enough, Tony Szamboti, mechanical engineer?

Here's the link for the fifth time: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3054359&postcount=134

You can simply copy and paste your criticisms and send them to GreNMe. That is where the debate is to take place. Unless you are refusing to accept that. I told you I will not debate you here and you just keep on trying to do just that.

Are you refusing to send a copy of your criticisms to GreNME?
 

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