Pear Cable CEO Calls James Randi's $1 Million Offer a Hoax

Gravy,

I believe that the actual challenge is to someone (with a reputation to lose) to prove they can hear ANY difference between Pear’s most expensive cables and a set of monster cables. That was pretty clear, but the details for the testing seem to be something that the acceptor of the challenge has to propose, first, and then get approved.

If it were to be anything to do with qualitative differences, the nature of the test would not be valid for the purposes of the Challenge. I mean, no one proves that they’re a medium in contact with the dead, only not very good at it, so their fees are probably too high.

You can argue forever whether you think high priced cables are worth it, but this Challenge is presented as being about paranormal phenomena, not value.
 
JIt's a subject I'd seek expert (read: audio engineer, qualified with minimum Bachelor's degree + experience) opinion before offering any comment as to their efficacy.

Well you have just cut some of the greatest minds in audio off at the knees there.

It doesnt take a bachelor's degree to test whether cables *above a particular requirement* have any difference to audible sounds

The fact that they won't take the challenge pretty much answers that question
 
Well you have just cut some of the greatest minds in audio off at the knees there.

It doesnt take a bachelor's degree to test whether cables *above a particular requirement* have any difference to audible sounds

Obviously, but I work all day with engineers, so I'd certainly ask one for his opinion before I did anything else. That's the point I was making.

The fact that they won't take the challenge pretty much answers that question

Appears to me that they're crying out to have a go. That being the case, which side is delaying? Maybe the audiophile guys should start a Sylvia-style countdown:

Number of weeks without response since we called Randi's challenge a hoax. They'd probably keep theirs up to date though.
 
Gravy,

I believe that the actual challenge is to someone (with a reputation to lose) to prove they can hear ANY difference between Pear’s most expensive cables and a set of monster cables.
I don't remember reading that, but perhaps he did. Here's the vague challenge in his commentary that's received attention:

Well, we at the JREF are willing to be shown that these “no-compromise” cables perform better than, say, the equivalent Monster cables. While Pear rattles on about “capacitance,” “inductance,” “skin effect,” “mechanical integrity” and “radio frequency interface,” – all real qualities and concerns, and adored by the hi-fi nut-cases – we naively believe that a product should be judged by its actual performance, not by qualities that can only be perceived by attentive dogs or by hi-tech instrumentation. That said, we offer the JREF million-dollar prize to – for example – Dave Clark, Editor of the audio review publication Positive Feedback Online, who provided the above rave review. If Mr. Clark should choose to apply for the prize, he would be unlike John Atkinson of Stereophile Magazine – see randi.org/jr/121004science.html#11 – who made great noises about being ready to snap up the million, then got distracted by things such as gullible readers who accepted his claimed abilities, and backed out. But we’ll see…
 
Should selling $1000 cables that are essentially snake oil be allowed in any culture? What if you could get the same performance with $50 cables?

You have asked the question that, logically, SHOULD be asked. Randi has one big tool, and you know the quote about everything looking like a nail when what you've got is a hammer. The questions he's asking is the wrong one, but he doesn't have any other powerful tool.

He's challenging the cable people to prove they're able to produce "paranormal" results. That's reminding me way too much of some Monte Python sketches.

The problem with the easy answer – “of course people should not be allowed to get away with selling expensive stuff (like maybe designer water) that you can get the equivalent of for a fraction of the price” – is that it creates a boundary along a continuum, and then someone gets to decide where it is set.

I might think that my neighbor’s Jaguar is offensively expensive, and doesn’t do a very good job on fuel economy. There are people who spend ridiculous amounts of money on designer shoes. There are people who happily, merrily go gamble their money away in Vegas. The reason we don’t help these people to stop absolutely wasting their money is that the cure is even worse than the disease, in the good old American culture as I think I understand it.

So the idea is to ridicule certain things to death.

Fine with me, when the fakery is truly, for sure, fakery, in a black & white, yes or no way, and not just “overpriced for what you get.”
 
You have asked the question that, logically, SHOULD be asked. Randi has one big tool, and you know the quote about everything looking like a nail when what you've got is a hammer. The questions he's asking is the wrong one, but he doesn't have any other powerful tool.

He's challenging the cable people to prove they're able to produce "paranormal" results. That's reminding me way too much of some Monte Python sketches.

But see, to me, those might be the same question. If I take a bottle of water and shake it up (and coincidentally sell it for 10x what water sells for), it's totally "woo" if I call it a homeopathic cure.

In a parallel case, if I take some copper wires and wrap them in gold and sell it for 10x what normal copper wire sells for, is it any less woo because I can come up with some physics terms to describe the difference? Look, I've bought crappily made speakers before - I understand that there's a big difference between well-made audio components and shoddily made ones. That's not the claim we're testing here. I don't know what Randi's trying to accomplish - everyone here is just guessing right now - but I would definitely argue that a lof of this high-end stuff is relatively indistinguishable from the crystals my grand-dad uses to align his chakra.

I might think that my neighbor’s Jaguar is offensively expensive, and doesn’t do a very good job on fuel economy. There are people who spend ridiculous amounts of money on designer shoes. There are people who happily, merrily go gamble their money away in Vegas. The reason we don’t help these people to stop absolutely wasting their money is that the cure is even worse than the disease, in the good old American culture as I think I understand it.

That's true, but those things do exactly as they claim. The jaguar goes really fast. The shoes look really cute, and the gambling causes a false sense of danger and payoff. I suppose if these cables advertised "look really sexy, and cause a false sense of quality," then we wouldn't be here today.

Fine with me, when the fakery is truly, for sure, fakery, in a black & white, yes or no way, and not just “overpriced for what you get.”

From the data from double-blind tests I've drudged up, it seems closer and closer to fakery to me. Can anyone produce quantifiable data that goes the other way.
 
this stuff is heating up everywhere, but this takes the cake:

from this thread http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/0/19719/32/937/#msg_19719

"For those who haven't already selected their religion. This is actually about science, not huxsterism conducted by "professional skeptics" to make money, like Pope Randi. The work was conducted at the Stanford Research Institute in the early 70's.

http://www.amazon.com/Mind-Reach-Scientists-Psychic-Abilitie s-Consciousness/dp/1571744142


Margaret Mead's lengthy introduction, again for those who haven't pre-deteremined what they "know" about this.

INTRODUCTION

BY

MARGARET MEAD

This book is a clear, straightforward account of a set of successful experiments that demonstrate the existence of "remote viewing," a hitherto unvalidated human capacity. The conventional and time-honored canons of the laboratory have been observed, aided by our current repertoire of instrumentation, Faraday shielding, specifically generated sets of random numbers, and cathode rays. People - both inexperienced learners as well as those who have previously demonstrated psychic proficiency - have been used as subjects successfully. It is a perfectly regular and normal piece of scientific work, as is the study of communication among bees, the luminescence of fireflies, the way in which frogs discriminate between the sexes, or the scientific study of any new biological phenomena.
"


it continues
 
But the tester can give away concious or subconcious clues to the testee as to which cable is currently plugged in. Double blinding isn't for removing reporting bias, it is for removing any possible information leakage between the experimental setup and the subjects.
I was assuming thatthe tester is out of view of the listener, and not in any other form of commonication with the listener.

Yes, reporting bias is perhaps not the appropriate term here. The core of the matter is that the listener must not have any cues to which cable is which.

Hans
 
You can't be sure that the recording would disclose all attempts of false reporting - especially if it is done after the experiment is over.

Yes, there is: He can alter it after the test, once he knows the correct results. Or someone else can.

Check the Soal-Goldney experiment.

At this point, I think it is sufficient to state that the recordings must be made. Of course the physical details of how the integrety of the recordings are ensured must be worked out, but that is for the detail planning stage.

Randi is the worst one you could choose! You clearly haven't seen Randi doing sleight-of-hand, even up-close! :D

OTOH, I don't think anybody would suspect him of helping the claimant. But yes, they might say he somehow made it more difficult. I suggest some official person is invited to roll the dice. But since it will be agreed upon by both aprties, I see no serious obstacles, either way.


No, that's not fair. It could be that the claimant got a coughing fit during a piece of music, or was otherwise distracted.

That is not a case where he cannot hear the difference, that is a failed listening. In any trial, there is a provision for rejecting a point, if it can be shown that the excecution was invalid. Such points shall simply be considered not part of the test. If so many points are rejected that the statistical evaluation is impacted, a retest is necessary. This is standard procedure.

But there aren't any third parties. The cables come from one vendor only.
Don't they have a distribution chain? My point is that the cable must be a stock version. Therefore, they can't bring cables to the trial, but they could be purchased from a regular outlet.

The other option is that they submit the electrical specifications for the cable, and these are then verified, for the cables under test, by an independent lab.

More like a marathon, against a hurricane...
A considerable amount of leg-work, to be sure. The way to go is a layered approach. First, you design the skeleton, which is what is done in the proposals here, then you work out practical details, such as how are records secured, how are cables verified, etc. If you try to do it all in one go, it gets unamageable.

It is an iterative process.

Hans
 
...Yes, reporting bias is perhaps not the appropriate term here. The core of the matter is that the listener must not have any cues to which cable is which.

Hans

I still see a problem with the test in general. As with the dowsing tests, there is usually a pre-pre-test where the is allowed to know the difference, i.e., which barrels have the water in them, to show that their powers are "working" that day. I'd assume that a listening test would also be in order, with the listener knowing which cables were in use at the time.

The problem being, the magic cables don't have to sound better at all, just different. They could be worse than the standard cables, but the open test would distinguish which is which immediately.

Of course, I'm sure this has all been considered and accounted for...
 
I confess I can't get interested in testing audio cables.
If people are happy to buy plutonium speaker cables, fine by me , so long as I don't have to go near them.
I think JREF has better things to do with it's time.
 
I think JREF has better things to do with it's time.

Like what?

"If people want to pay fake psychics, fine by me, so long as I don't have to go near them."
"If people want to believe the world is only 6000 years old, fine by me, so long as I don't have to go near them."
"If people want to take 'homeopathic malaria prevention,' fine by me, as long as I don't have to go near them."
 
At this point, I think it is sufficient to state that the recordings must be made. Of course the physical details of how the integrety of the recordings are ensured must be worked out, but that is for the detail planning stage.

State that the recordings must be made in a fashion so no alterations are possible.

Nip it in the bud.

OTOH, I don't think anybody would suspect him of helping the claimant. But yes, they might say he somehow made it more difficult. I suggest some official person is invited to roll the dice. But since it will be agreed upon by both aprties, I see no serious obstacles, either way.

There is also the problem of the experimenter participating in the experiment. That's a no-no.

That is not a case where he cannot hear the difference, that is a failed listening. In any trial, there is a provision for rejecting a point, if it can be shown that the excecution was invalid. Such points shall simply be considered not part of the test. If so many points are rejected that the statistical evaluation is impacted, a retest is necessary. This is standard procedure.

Yeah. But there has to be very explicit instructions to take this into account.

Don't they have a distribution chain? My point is that the cable must be a stock version. Therefore, they can't bring cables to the trial, but they could be purchased from a regular outlet.

I can't any mention of stores on their website, only direct buy.

The other option is that they submit the electrical specifications for the cable, and these are then verified, for the cables under test, by an independent lab.

Perhaps.

A considerable amount of leg-work, to be sure. The way to go is a layered approach. First, you design the skeleton, which is what is done in the proposals here, then you work out practical details, such as how are records secured, how are cables verified, etc. If you try to do it all in one go, it gets unamageable.

It is an iterative process.

Indeed. But it doesn't hurt to think it through as much as possible in advance. Forewarned is forearmed. :)
 
this stuff is heating up everywhere, but this takes the cake:

from this thread http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/0/19719/32/937/#msg_19719

"For those who haven't already selected their religion. This is actually about science, not huxsterism conducted by "professional skeptics" to make money, like Pope Randi. The work was conducted at the Stanford Research Institute in the early 70's.

http://www.amazon.com/Mind-Reach-Scientists-Psychic-Abilitie s-Consciousness/dp/1571744142


Margaret Mead's lengthy introduction, again for those who haven't pre-deteremined what they "know" about this.

INTRODUCTION

BY

MARGARET MEAD

This book is a clear, straightforward account of a set of successful experiments that demonstrate the existence of "remote viewing," a hitherto unvalidated human capacity. The conventional and time-honored canons of the laboratory have been observed, aided by our current repertoire of instrumentation, Faraday shielding, specifically generated sets of random numbers, and cathode rays. People - both inexperienced learners as well as those who have previously demonstrated psychic proficiency - have been used as subjects successfully. It is a perfectly regular and normal piece of scientific work, as is the study of communication among bees, the luminescence of fireflies, the way in which frogs discriminate between the sexes, or the scientific study of any new biological phenomena.
"


it continues

Wow! They sure are having a lot of fun!

We all know that it is the evil Randi's fault that mainstream science has not accepted the truth of parapsychology in the last 30 years. That man has so much power. :D

Anyway, even for fear of starting another unleashment of WOO, isn't Margaret Mead synonymous with gullible anyway? All those nice young girls in Samoa stretched her leg so long with their tall stories that Dr Meade could wrap it twice around her body. :boggled:
 
Seems like the JREF should forge ahead with this one.

It will take some money, but might the following test settle the matter and garner some publicity as well. It also conveys a good image of backing up claims and pressing ahead against fraud and erroneous beliefs.

Have 10 people who have bought these hyper-expensive cables come in for testing. We have an assortment of music tracks. Probably contemporary music tracks are best because they are generally well engineered and are mixed to cover a wide frequency spectrum. If the 'mega-cables' do yield benefit, this is the type of music that would reveal the difference.

So the randomly selected track is played twice. The first time the track is played with the supercables. Then a virtual coin-flip and the track is either played again with the supercables or switched for some other cables with a more down-to-Earth price. Still, a quality cable would be used. In the order of perhaps one hundred dollars. A couple of hundred max.

The person taking the test then decides whether there is a difference or whether the superior cables are being used for both listens. If the ten people can choose beyond a level of chance then the JREF would pay out $100,000 to each. I haven't actually given much thought to the prizemoney though, I'm sure there's plenty of other ways. Maybe even a smaller prize because this issue is not exactly in line with the JREF's primary focus. Maybe $10,000 to each. That 100k buys a lot of publicity, and that's provided they win the challenge.

I see it as a major boost to the JREF either way.

Any problems with this?

P.S this thing is a lock. Beyond basically good manufacture, proper shielding and quality pickups, there's nothing a cable can possibly do to be superior to its peers.



Note - woah, I'm dumb. Looks like several people have already said this.

Maybe I can redeem myself by suggesting that the JREF might get a rival company to sponsor the comparison test, at least partly. We'd use their cables and after these so-called 'audiophiles' are finished with the tests and if the results prove there is no discernible difference between the two sets they can proudly proclaim their cables performance is indistinguishable from their absurdly expensive competitors cables.
 
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Have 10 people who have bought these hyper-expensive cables come in for testing. We have an assortment of music tracks. Probably contemporary music tracks are best because they are generally well engineered and are mixed to cover a wide frequency spectrum. If the 'mega-cables' do yield benefit, this is the type of music that would reveal the difference.

So the randomly selected track is played twice. The first time the track is played with the supercables. Then a virtual coin-flip and the track is either played again with the supercables or switched for some other cables with a more down-to-Earth price. Still, a quality cable would be used. In the order of perhaps one hundred dollars. A couple of hundred max.

The person taking the test then decides whether there is a difference or whether the superior cables are being used for both listens.

That sort of "experiment", as well as the following example, illustrate an outstanding lack of scientific method. Which actually makes sense, because the "test" isn't actually about the cables, but people. Read on:

When I was a graduate student I did the simplest possible experiment. I placed a pair of amplifiers on a table: one fancy and expensive, and the other plain and cheap. Both had wires that ran to a switch box. The switch was clearly labeled as to which amp corresponded to which position. Subjects were allowed as much time as they wanted; they operated the switch themselves, and all they had to do was to report in which position of the switch the system sounded better. All but a few reported that they could tell the difference, and almost all preferred the more expensive unit. One person said that as far as he was concerned, the switch "wasn't doing anything at all." That person was right: I was using only one amplifier and the switch was not connected to anything. The results were statistically significant, and showed that people can fool themselves with alarming ease.
http://www.acmqueue.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=98

In both cases, it isn't a scientific experiment at all. To be scientific, you have to eliminate variables, and create an experiment with one variable, the one that you are testing.

In this case the claim, made by Randi, is that "nobody can hear the difference, it would be paranormal if they could". There is also another claim, "there is no difference, it would be paranormal if cables were different", though it isn't as obvious. Both of these claims may actually be valid. But without testing, doing a real experiment, you just don't know. It doesn't matter what you say, you simply do not know.

The first issue, and most important, would be about the hardware. Do the super duper Pear cables transmit a different signal to the speakers? The obvious way to find out would be to test them. If in fact the claim holds up, and there is a different frequency of energy transmitted, as determined by test equipment, then there are grounds for the next step.

If not, end of story. Randi wins right there. Unless you can determine that one cable sends a different signal, what is the point of going any further? This ruins all the fun, so let us assume the manufacturer isn't simply committing fraud, and the scientific test, with real science type equipment and stuff, shows the signal is flatter, at certain frequencies. (The web site makes this claim). Yes yes, I know, testing the cables would be the obvious thing to do, but what fun is that?

OK so we have evidence the cables are different.

OK, so now we test if music sounds "better", or different. Either one satisfies the conditions of the challenge, that nobody can tell the difference between Monster Cables and the really expensive Pear Cables.

No. That isn't how you do science. Remember how the quoted "test" showed people can be fooled? That perception is influenced by belief? Or in that case, fraud? Perception is one of the easiest things to manipulate, to fool most people. People can not be trusted when it comes to perception. Period. Stress, expectations, setting, beliefs, even having strangers around, or being in a strange setting, they all can change perceptions. Even time can change it, as well as fatigue and other biological changes.

Rather than set up some complicated test with variables and music and speakers and travel and switches and any and all silly gizmos, this one is a no brainer. No, really it is. Well, at least to me.

We have a simple claim from Pear, that one cable transmits certain frequencies better than another. We determined (not really, but this is just talking) that indeed there is a flatter response with the Pear Cables.

Does that matter? Does a flatter curve matter? Can it make a difference? Can people hear it?

Well, we can answer all of those with a scientific method.

Generating pure frequencies, you play those through the cables, into the reference speakers, and you analyze the sound. (This is a very exact science, it is one thing Audio Engineers do). Then you switch the cables, everything else is the same, and analyze the sound again. Nothing but the cables are changed. NOTHING but the cables are different.

If the actual sound is different, we now have a scientific basis for the cables actually sounding different. Not better, that is a value judgment, everybody gets to decide that for them self. You can't know anything about "better", better is subjective.. That is a complete non issue here. Again, the quoted test above shows this. The exact same sound can be judged better. Or worse. You can not go by perceptions like that. It doesn't work. Why is that you might ask? Bear with me, I will explain all.

Can we test for better? No, what we do next is determine if human beings can hear the difference, which is the challenge. Really, it is. Difference is a very important issue. Being able to tell the difference between two sounds, is either obvious, or non existent. Under one certain condition. Playing music twice is the last thing to use in trying to tell the difference. The exact same music can sound different. This can be shown with another experiment, but forget about that, it doesn't matter. We have rejected it, it isn't needed.

To make this obvious, let us use an example everybody is familiar with, unless you are blind, in which case you might not be reading this anyway. Light. Yes light. If you are trying to see if somebody can tell the difference between two different lights, you don't turn one on, let the person look at it, then turn it off, and turn on the other light. It doesn't work. Doing it multiple times, and ask them to say which is which, or if they are different, is even worse. If the lights are close to the same, it is impossible to tell the difference like that. Either intensity or color. It doesn't matter. It will not work.

It is almost impossible. That is a terrible test. Not scientific or fair in any way. No, if you want to know if the difference between two sources is perceptible, if people can tell the difference, the way to do it is to switch back and forth between the two, with a beat, or rhythm, over and over, repeating the change.

If it possible to see a difference
, that will make it obvious, so that even a casual observer can see it. No need for complicated set ups and protocols. It is an obvious test. It will also reveal that some people have keener senses, if some people can see it, but others can't.

Can a person see a difference? How can you know? They simply tell you when the light is changing, rather than staying the same. End of story. You can switch f one light on, as a standard, then start pulsing the lights, or start off with the pulsing light, it won't matter. If nobody can tell when it is a steady source, or a changing source, there is no difference between them, at least to the human eye. End of story. If the difference can be seen, then you see a pulsing light.

That is a simple yet effective test of two different signals. There is no doubt about the issue, it either is pulsing or it isn't.

There may be small problems, which will become obvious later.

Now, you can do the same thing with sound. You switch between the pure tones, from both cables, with a beat or rhythm. The best option would be to record the output of the speakers, and edit the two outputs together, with no noise, so that there is no switching sound or interruption of the tone. Again, using test equipment you can see that the tones are different. If not, no need to go further. You analyze the recording, to make sure there are no pops, blips, any other sound that would cue a change. This is very important. Just pure tone, nothing else.

If indeed the cables produce different tones, at the frequencies claimed, you now have a test audio track, that when played back, is a rapid switching from one source to the other, using pure tones, so that there is only one thing being tested. Obviously you have to use the Pear Cables and original system to play this recording back. So that the tones can be heard, if they are indeed there.

So now we have either a pure unchanging tone, or pulsing tone, ready to test. What is the test?

Can a listener tell any difference? Do you hear a steady pure tone? Or do you hear a changing tone? It doesn't matter if it is louder, cleaner, crisper or any other description, can a human being hear a difference?

Remember the light example. You either can tell the signal is steady, or it is pulsing, changing with a beat. To be scientific, you try several beats, to avoid bias. Too fast a beat would be beyond perception, too slow and you are back to the original problem, the innate problem of comparing sources.

If Pear wants the million dollars, they should do this simple test first, in order to simply know, and avoid any embarrassment. Same goes for Randi. Except if you find there is a difference, and it can be detected, then you are screwed. :wackywink:

While this simple experiment sounds complicated, it really isn't. By eliminating everything except the one thing we want to know, all excuses and rationalizations are viewed as just that. On both sides. The Cables produce a different sound, or they don't.

Because older people usually lose the ability to hear higher frequencies, it is obvious that you can have the situation where some people can hear the pulse, the beat produced by switching the sources, while others simply can't. This could lead to the exact criticism that some have made about Randi, that because he decides what happened or didn't happen, the challenge is a fraud, or hoax. (See, back on topic at last)

In a case like this, it would be obvious to any observer that people with good hearing, in a double blind test, can or can't hear a difference between two cables. Even if Randi can't

I'm sure some of the technical aspects of what I just tried to explain may be confusing. If you have any doubts, consult a professional audio engineer. They can and will explain it, and can easily set up everything I mentioned.

To sum up, any test that involves music and switches and dual systems and travel and complicated groups of people watching each other and moving cables and pieces of music and stuff, is just nonsense. Showmanship, illusions, trickery and drama. None of counts. It won't prove or disprove anything, except what you want it to.

Either a signal is different, or it is not. If there is a difference, is it audible? If it is audible, can it be differentiated by human hearing?

All the talk and trickery in the world will not change the facts. If two cables are different, and that difference can be perceived, the test I outlined will make this obvious. It is both scientific and satisfies the requirements that the result is obvious.

It also speaks to the hoax issue. Is Pear hoaxing people? Or is Randi?
 
As a general point...

One person said that as far as he was concerned, the switch "wasn't doing anything at all." That person was right: I was using only one amplifier and the switch was not connected to anything. The results were statistically significant, and showed that people can fool themselves with alarming ease.
http://www.acmqueue.com/modules.php?...howpage&pid=98

No, it shows that YOU can fool people with ease. Except that one person, who caught you in your deception. I like to think that if you tried something like that now, Randi is the person who will simply say, "It doesn't do anything."
 

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