Pear Cable CEO Calls James Randi's $1 Million Offer a Hoax

Ok to put it with some other words, it won't be out of this world difficult of course, but it won't be a matter of two minutes trivial.

Fair point. I don't think any of us meant two minutes as in literally 120 seconds, but the difficulties aren't insurmountable as your post shows.

The other side, with Pear firing shots, calling hoax and calling Randi a liar are things needing immediate attention, however, and the simplest way is to sort it out immediately.
 
Bench mark cabling

I can't see why. Surely it's as simple as having two identical pieces of equipment and using Pear cables on one and not the other. As I said, if people at random won't do, get some audiophiles in. If Randi's right, it wouldn't matter who it is, there is no difference and as long as there's no knowledge of what cable is being used, the test subjects shouldn't make any difference.

I agree more or less. One critical thing would be what is defined as a normal or standard speaker cable to compare against the PEAR cable.

My guess is PEAR would try and use a substandard cable to compare against theirs.

My point is if PEAR use a bad enough cable as the standard theirs will come out as showing a difference in quality to that.

First thing to be resolved in any challenge is to set a bench mark cable to challenge the PEAR cable.
 
To me, this seems a question of "Can tiny differences that are detectable with sensitive equipment also be detected by the human ear?". Nothing paranormal about it. And I would suspect that there are individuals who -- either through training, or genetic bias -- are able to detect subtle differences that most of us would not notice (similar to those with "super noses" who can pull of feats of olfactory brilliance that would be beyond the ability of most of us).


I think this is quite true... HOWEVER, I think that there are some well-published standards about what the human ear can detect. To eliminate bias, a machine could be programmed with these filters and a recorder set up to see at what level the machine "hears" the difference between the exact same recordings... and what those differences are.

You can set it up for a 5% error basis (things happen when you get into the "absolute best a human can hear" range.

Done electronically, you should be able to do a number of different and repeatable tests.

...like trying to figure out what the words really ARE that Ricki Lake is singing to "Chuckie's In Love".
 
My point is if PEAR use a bad enough cable as the standard theirs will come out as showing a difference in quality to that.

First thing to be resolved in any challenge is to set a bench mark cable to challenge the PEAR cable.

Has any outsider measured PEAR cables to see if they are "good" cables in the first place and are not designed to change the sound in some way?
 
The claim was that pear is no better than Monster cable. Compare high end monster's to the Pear's.
 
First thing to be resolved in any challenge is to set a bench mark cable to challenge the PEAR cable.

Well, I have some observation to that myself. I think Randi's challenge was wrongully directed just because of attempting to ridicule one particular vendor.

Can't help being annoying about this, but I'd like to insist: the issue at stake here ought to be to make sure whether people can or can't tell cables apart in the first place. The "Educational" part of this JREF Foundation should be aiming at clarifying whether being able to tell cables apart is fact or fiction. Ridiculing one specific vendor is (possibly) a secondary effect of a debunking mission, but it shouldn't be the primary goal of any truth-seeking challenge posed by this foundation. Well, I think. I'm new here, so bear with me please.


To make sure people (audiophiles) can or can't tell cables apart, audiophiles should even be allowed to bring their own cables if they want. The cables they know, and the ones they claim to be able to differentiate with their system.

That poses some complications for a suitable test, because then they might want to be tested also with their system. Then there would be different equipment for different subjects. But in that case, there would be strangers swapping and messing with their equipment plugging and unplugging cables without the owners supervision, something many audiophiles won't easily accept.

Also, allowing people to bring their own cables and audio systems might give room for some pretty fancy forms of cheating.

In any case, I think finding a benchmark cable to challenge X cable is the wrong approach. Why not trying to redirect the aim of this challenge, trying to figure out whether people can or can't tell some cables apart in the first place, regardless of cables under consideration? Or would that be interesting just for people interested in audio, or some scientists, or guys like the Myth Busters, but not for JREF???
 
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The claim was that pear is no better than Monster cable. Compare high end monster's to the Pear's.

The fact is, Monster might possibly be good enough to sound equally good as Pear; Pear might have been bluffing against Monster, so Randi might win just in this case. And yet, we won't be sure whether people can or can't tell some cables apart after that "win." Pear might still have a point, even losing that particular angle of the challenge.
 
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The fact is, Monster might possibly be good enough to sound equally good as Pear, Pear might be bluffing against Monster, so Randi might win just in this case. And yet, we won't be sure whether people can tell cables apart, or whether some people can really tell an X cable from a Y cable after this "win." Pear might still have a point, even losing that particular angle of the challenge.

As far as I can see Randi's challenge was triggered by a review where these ridiculously expensive cables were described as "danceable." The challenge is reasonable to see if these "danceable" cables are really audibly different from good mainstream cables which are overpriced in the first place.

To answer the question whether cables have audible differences in general is more difficult. No doubt you can build a cable which sounds different, but in that case the cable most likely is no longer a "sane" cable for the purpose. It is more like finding measurable boundaries when it starts to matter what we can hear.

Which leads who are "we." Some people have more sensitive hearing, whether by genes or by learning. The more I am exposed and listen to better audio equipment the more differences I can hear. Some things that sounded the all the same before are nowadays very diffrent sounding indeed. Even if our ears are all the same, the big neural network to process the information can and will learn.
 
To answer the question whether cables have audible differences in general is more difficult.
And yet, I think, more important to answer in general (for knowledge and truth-seeking sake) than to challenge the claim of one particular vendor.

No doubt you can build a cable which sounds different,
Actually, there is doubt, some people strongly claim otherwise. That is part of what would need to be studied, the range of measurable differences between cables, and in what ranges the human hearing sense is capable of detecting differences.

I'm not talking about obvious measurable differences caused by, for example, introducing a large capacitor or some fancy circuitry in parallel in the middle of the cable. Just differences in the regular cable parameters, R, Z, L and C, caused by material, geometry, insulator, connectors, solder, shielding, and/or other regular components or characteristics of a speaker cable.

And I'm not talking about differences detectable just by the average joe. I mean how far the human hearing can prove to get, and not with respect to simply volume, but within the ranges of variability in cable specifications.

Some people can allegedly exceed 20/8 vision accuracy with no visual aids (meaning, they can resolve at 20 feet details that people with 20/20 can only resolve at no farther than 8 feet) so we do have some facts about the limits of our sense of vision. Some blind humans have allegedly developed a form of echo-location-based "vision", but we really know little about how subtle our hearing can get (or how deceitful our brains can get with respect to our hearing, for that matter.)
 
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...like trying to figure out what the words really ARE that Ricki Lake is singing to "Chuckie's In Love".
Rickie Lee Jones, "Chuck E.'s in Love" :)

I think people can save their keystrokes about Pear or other major audio wooists applying for the MDC. It ain't gonna happen.
 
Rickie Lee Jones, "Chuck E.'s in Love" :)

I think people can save their keystrokes about Pear or other major audio wooists applying for the MDC. It ain't gonna happen.

Those were my sentiments, exactly. If Pear was even remotely considering taking the MDC, they wouldn't be bad-mouthing it. They'd be quietly getting their s*** together to prove the case.

Instead, they'll have some more tests with friendly woo-reviewers who raise their metaphorical fingers in the air and say, "Ah ha! That's a much richer sound!"

My bet is that if we can argue here over a two page thread and not come to a conclusive protocol, then Pear and the testing people can haggle it out for six months.

Pear's pronouncement was 'damage control'. They have no intention of going after the million, but will take a half-million in free publicity if they can siphon it off.
 
I'll reiterate several points here, in a (hopefully) more organized manner; some of my points have been responded to, but some have not.

1) Who's Being Hurt?

Putting aside for a moment the question of whether these cables result in a discernible difference or not, I'd first like to raise the question of what difference does it make? Randi has, in two concurrent issues of his newsletter, publicly mocked these people, essentially accusing them of fraud, and laid down a challenge to them to prove their claims.

So, just who is it that is having their lives destroyed, to merit such a scathing attack? The people who buy these cables are a tiny sub-set of society, people who obsess on getting the highest possible level of sound quality out of their systems. They will spend literally thousands of dollars on all sorts of equipment. Some of that equipment will result in a big difference, while some of it will result in very small, incremental improvements that most of us would not notice or care about. Some of that equipment may not even result in any real change or improvement (or at least not one discernible to the ear of the person buying it).

Now, this person who's already spent thousands of dollars on other stuff, turns around and spends hundreds/thousands of dollars on cables that, in all likelihood, will not result in a discernible difference in the sound quality of their system. Ummmmm...so what? It's an expensive hobby that they enjoy, and they've chosen to spend money on these cables.

2) Why waste JREF's time/money on this?

Building on the previous, while I appreciate rsaavedra's spirited defense of the quest for knowledge, I just cannot perceive the potential to discover that some tiny portion of humans are able -- due either to genetics or to careful training -- to discern tiny differences in sound quality that most of us cannot as being even moderately interesting.

The JREF is a non-profit organization that functions largely on donations. The people who make those donations make them with the expectation that they will be used responsibly, to pursue the stated goals of the JREF. I have a hard time fitting the issue of tiny differences in audio quality falling within the rubric of the JREF's mission.

The time/energy/money that is being spent on this could far, far, far better be used on other issues that are of far greater significance, and that are causing real harm.

3) Winning makes little/no difference

If the JREF wins this challenge, what difference will it make? Its an issue that most people don't care about, because most people are never going to buy such expensive cables anyway. For the small number of people who would buy such cables, many of them will remain ignorant of the test. And among those are are aware of it, they will nevertheless dismiss it in favor of continuing their belief that it actually does make a difference.

4) Losing makes a big difference

Losing, on the other hand, makes a big difference. If there is some audio super-listener out there who actually is able to tell the difference, the following issues will result:

* It will "validate" claims made by these companies, legitimizing their sale of such products, even though the cables will still be essentially useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of users. So people will still be ripped off for ridiculous sums of money, but now they will be ripped of using the validation of the JREF's challenge!

* Others far more questionable groups -- psychics, those who claim paranormal powers, etc. -- will publicly use this as "proof" that Randi doesn't know what he's talking about. Since Randi claimed it was impossible to do this, and he was proven wrong, it demonstrates that his claims about others being unable to actually accomplish certain feats are equally subject to error. They are the ignorant rantings of an old man with a high school education, not the intelligent/informed challenges of a man who knows what he's talking about (note, this is not my opinion, I'm just stating what others would say). Sure, some people say this already; but they do so without any demonstrable facts to support them. Losing this challenge would give them just the ammunition they need.

5) All that being said...

...while I think it was an incredibly stupid issue for James Randi to get involved in; and while I think it is a waste of the JREF's time and resources to pursue this; and while I think there is potential for damage to the JREF's reputatation...

...having laid down the challenge, Randi and the JREF can hardly back away gracefully now. Randi has put the JREF in a position where the only real option is to press forward with the challenge, come hell or high water. To fail to do so would demonstrate an appalling lack of integrity, to use the JREF as a forum to publicly denigrate and criticize someone else, to issue a challenge, and then simply back off and ignore it.

6) And the protocol

I would, as others have said, consider it relatively simple to test these claims. To me, if it was possible to demonstrate that at least one individual was capable of discerning the difference in sound quality depending on the cables used, that would constitute proof of Pear's claims, and result in the necessity of the JREF paying out the one million dollar prize.

The people being challenged should have the right to choose the individuals who will be tested; inevitably, these will be audio professionals with highly attuned listening, and extensive training/experience with audio equipment.

To avoid any potential claims about even tiny differences in sound quality, only one set of equipment should be used. The individuals being tested will listen to a particular recording using one set of cables, then listen to exactly the same recording using another set. This should be repeated at least five times for each listener (in other words, listen to five recordings twice each), and the listener must indicate each time if the quality of sound is better or worse.

The cables should, obviously, be in a position where they cannot by any means be observed by the person being tested; and should be switched randomly each time.

Random chance would indicate that, if it is not possible to discern a difference, the listeners will guess correctly approximately 50% of the time. If a person gets 8 or more correct answers, they will be asked to repeat the process two more times. If they get a similar score on the two subsequent tries, they will be considered to have passed the challenge.

It is necessary for only one person to "pass" the challenge to legitimize Pear's claims, and require payment of the one million dollar prize.
 
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...having laid down the challenge, Randi and the JREF can hardly back away gracefully now. Randi has put the JREF in a position where the only real option is to press forward with the challenge, come hell or high water. To fail to do so would demonstrate an appalling lack of integrity, to use the JREF as a forum to publicly denigrate and criticize someone else, to issue a challenge, and then simply back off and ignore it.

Bingo. That's the key issue.
 
The JREF is a non-profit organization that functions largely on donations. The people who make those donations make them with the expectation that they will be used responsibly, to pursue the stated goals of the JREF.

Precisely. If it's not clear whether people can indeed differenciate cables, then the following two things are true:

1) Challenging the claims of one particular cable manufacturer with the $1 million prize was possibly irresponsible (because whether people can or can't tell cables apart hasn't been properly settled by science or DBT, as far as we know.)

2) Claims about a particular cable manufacturer with respect to the audible improvement their cables provide might be false, but wouldn't really be claims of anything paranormal (once again, because whether people can differenciate cables hasn't been settled; people might indeed be able to tell cables apart, as far as we know so far.)


I think the assessment about human abilities on differenciating cables should be done before challenging any manufacturer's claim on what their cables promise. It is unfortunate that a one million dollar prize was caught in the middle of this fire, and that some people's reputations and integrities are being questioned.
 
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This is one of Randi's personal challenges. Complaining about how I am handling it is meaningless. There is no sense in developing a protocol here, although you may if you like. Again, this is one of Randi's personal projects.

To address the other concerns: All information regarding this challenge has not yet become available. When it is public, I will post here again and share. Until then, however, please refrain from making value judgments in regards to this issue. No one here is yet fully informed.
 
The assumptions in here are amazing, no pun intended.

This challenge will take time, and we're going to do it very carefully.

So relax.. speculate and throw things around all you want, but don't assume that because the challenge hasn't taken place yet or because you haven't heard anything new in a day or two that we've forgotten about it. We haven't.
 
please refrain from making value judgments in regards to this issue. No one here is yet fully informed.
Apologies for any of my comments if they sounded judgemental. Just sharing my personal point of view given the limited info I have so far, but really not meaning harm to anyone.
 
Remie,

Actually, my 'complaints', as such, are about James Randi, not you. You may call it his "personal challenge" if you like, but the fact remains that JREF resources -- funded by donors -- are being used to pursue what is, apparently, his own personal mini-campaign. If he was doing this on his own time, using his own money, that would be one thing. When JREF resources are being used, and funds that were donated with the expectation of pursuing specific goals are instead used for this, I think that people have a legitimate right to raise questions.

In regards to making "value judgments", James Randi was very vocal in his criticism of these cables, and the companies making them, and he certainly stated very explicit value judgments about their claims. I don't exactly see by what rationale it is wrong for us to respond to him, or question his actions/conclusions.

I'd say that I look forward to your future post when more detailed information "becomes public", but personally I think it is a waste of time, energy, and resources. If it turns out that James Randi pays for all related costs for this (including paying any relevant salaries for JREF staff who spend time working on this), then I will happily take back all my criticisms, and express full support for him to pursue whatever personal peeves he may have. However, if JREF resources are being used to pursue his "personal challenge", then I think there is a legitimate cause for others to demand accountability, and question how JREF resources are allocated and used.

I run a non-profit organization myself; and as much as I'd like to use that organization's funds and resources to pursue my own personal agendas, I have a broader responsibility to those who support me, and am accountable to them to use those funds in the manner in which they were intended.

Judging from the response here, at least, it does not seem that many people -- all of whom are JREF fans and supporters -- consider this a particularly worthwhile or meaningful course of action.

I appreciate that you yourself have no choice in this matter, and are responsible to do what Randi tells you to do. But I do object to the notion that we should somehow not comment on, criticize, or question this. This is a forum for skeptics! Turning around and saying that we should not express our skepticism, or ask questions, seems one of the most futile efforts I could imagine.
 
So relax.. speculate and throw things around all you want, but don't assume that because the challenge hasn't taken place yet or because you haven't heard anything new in a day or two that we've forgotten about it. We haven't.
Thanks for confirming that we are, in fact, 'allowed' to speculate on and question this :)

However, my complaints have little or nothing to do with when/whether the challenge takes place; they have to do with whether this is an issue that deserves the JREF's time and money in the first place. I raised specific points above in this regard, the majority of which have been entirely unaddressed.
 
The assumptions in here are amazing, no pun intended.

Really? Which assumptions are these? I've just re-read the thread and I see a lot of speculation, a bit of disppointment, a fair amount of comment, but no assumptions.

Lucky it's only me asking, eh? ;)
 

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