Pear Cable CEO Calls James Randi's $1 Million Offer a Hoax

I'm sure that I could scientifically demonstrate the difference between Kraft cheddar cheese and Borden cheddar cheese. Cheese, however, is designed for human consumption.
Sorry, Remie...not getting the point here. I am fairly certain that there are many human consumers who would be able to discern a difference between Kraft and Borden cheddar cheeses; and I'm absolutely certain that there are specialists who could very easily discern the difference.

Consider wines. I myself have a very 'uneducated' palate, and am pretty much incapable of discerning much difference between a fine wine, and a bottle of alcoholic fruit juice. That does not mean that there is not, in fact a difference; nor does it mean that my inability to tell the difference means that the higher price of the fine wine is unjustified (it means only that I'm really stupid to buy the more expensive wine if the cheaper one gives me the same degree of drinking pleasure).

I entirely fail to see exactly what real 'damage' the claims made by the producers of these cables are doing. They're not making unscientific claims that promote a belief in the paranormal or supernatural; they are claiming that differences that are quantitatively and qualitatively measurable by sensitive electronic equipment are also discernable to the human ear. That claim may not be true...but it is hardly on par with most of the other issues I see Randi taking on.

In addition, who exactly is being hurt by this? Is there some sort of epidemic of people spending thousands of dollars on cables that I am unaware of? Anyone who is spending that kind of money on cables is already certain to be spending equally ludicrous amounts of money on other components for their systems, many of which likely have equally negligible effect on the overall quality of the performance of those systems. It's not like someone's gonna' buy a $50 stereo then say, "Hey, I think I'd better spend $5000 on cables so that this will sound better!"

Its a trivial issue that I think makes the JREF look trivial. Randi may be right -- there may be no difference that is discernible to the human ear -- and he may be wrong -- there may be some individuals who can detect some degree of difference -- but regardless of that, it seems a trite and pointless effort, a useless expenditure of time and money on an almost entirely irrelevant issue, when the JREF could be far better spending its time and money to pursue more worthwhile and meaningful goals.

Many people have donated money to the JREF to fund its efforts. I have a hard time seeing many of those people being concerned about over-priced cables that only a very small number of people are every going to buy, especially when the few people who are buying them are people who will pretty much inevitably have already spent thousands of dollars on other components that will make this purchase seem relatively insignificant overall.

Now, JREF staff are spending time and energy -- paid for by JREF donors -- to pursue an issue like this?

Sorry, I just don't see the point.
 
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I agree with Wolf. I don't think the case of "superior-sounding speaker cables" belongs in a JREF test. If scientific instrumentation proves there's a difference, then there's a difference - nothing supernatural about it.
 
Seriously, just as there are 'tasters' in the world with more educated pallets, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if there are some out there who can tell the difference in audio quality,

I myself have a very 'uneducated' palate, and am pretty much incapable of discerning much difference between a fine wine, and a bottle of alcoholic fruit juice.

Except for having my spelling corrected (palate :p), I wonder why I bother posting! ;)

Even so, Wolfman and I seem to be in agreement. It is not my place to say, because I do not work for JREF, but I hope that JREF doesn't die on this mountain. :(

Telling the technical difference between two real-world objects is the job of scientists. Protecting consumers from falling prey to marketing hype is the job of Consumer Reports (or some other such). However, I also agree that once the gauntlet has been thrown down, there should be no backing out of it.

caveat emptor and all that...
 
now that the JREF has laid down the gauntlet, I think they are obligated to follow through. You don't go about making public accusations of fraud, offer the million dollar prize, then later back off.
Agree.

To me, this seems a question of "Can tiny differences that are detectable with sensitive equipment also be detected by the human ear?". Nothing paranormal about it. And I would suspect that there are individuals who -- either through training, or genetic bias -- are able to detect subtle differences that most of us would not notice (similar to those with "super noses" who can pull of feats of olfactory brilliance that would be beyond the ability of most of us).
It is sad that there's more interest in the media-attraction ability of $1 million than in learning about human abilities. Goodness, there are olympic games that let us learn over time what physical feats some humans are capable of. We are interested in coordination, team work, and what level of performance different human muscles can achieve. Sad that we are so biased in favor of muscle related feats, not on how well human senses can perform.

So...is James Randi claiming that the "benefits" of these cables are impossible to discern by anyone? Or that only a small number of people would be able to discern the difference? If they were able to produce one sound-sensitive technophile who actually could discern the difference, would the million dollars be paid out? Or would they have to prove that the difference can be detected by the average consumer?
Good point. I think the $1 million challenge is ill-oriented here in the first place. Why challenging and discrediting just Pear Audio? The most valuable question to tackle in this context I think would be whether some humans are really able to tell cables apart, not whether the quality of the cables made by one specific cable manufacturer is questionable.

It is interesting to simply verify whether *some* people are truly able to tell some cables apart; whether speaker cables, or headphone cables, or even "interconnects" (the line-level cables between your CD player and your amplifier.) That test could be carried out irregardless of the existence of the paranormal and debunking-oriented $1 million challenge. I think JREF was right in challenging the cable believer's claim. But I think it was likely very wrong to challenge their claims with the $1 million prize though.


Consider wines. I myself have a very 'uneducated' palate, and am pretty much incapable of discerning much difference between a fine wine, and a bottle of alcoholic fruit juice. That does not mean that there is not, in fact a difference; nor does it mean that my inability to tell the difference means that the higher price of the fine wine is unjustified (it means only that I'm really stupid to buy the more expensive wine if the cheaper one gives me the same degree of drinking pleasure).
In the Head-Fi.org (headphone related) forum, the Wine analogy has been referred to several times when talking about differences between cables.

The fact that some people can´t tell a premium wine from a $5 wine clearly doesn´t prove that no one is able to differentiate them. Not to fall into a fallacy, and of course, what happens with wine and sense of taste doesn´t prove anything about cables and our sense of hearing.

But some people do seriously claim they can tell cables apart. Those are the ones to be properly tested, and it does fall under the self-proclaimed jurisdiction of JREF to validate those claims, I think.


they are claiming that differences that are quantitatively and qualitatively measurable by sensitive electronic equipment are also discernable to the human ear. That claim may not be true...but it is hardly on par with most of the other issues I see Randi taking on.
It may not be true... but it might be. Until people making the claim gets properly tested, we will never know for sure.

If Randi doesn´t care about checking those claims, it´s too bad. Those are probably not paranormal or superhuman ability sort of claims, same way claims about being able to differentiate wines wouldn´t be paranormal. But validating those claims falls under the realm of checking unfounded claims, cognitive tricks, self-delusion, or simply verifying an unfounded claim that ends up being true.

Critical thinking shouldn´t be just about not letting other people BS you, or just learning how to argue properly; it should also be about getting down to pursuing the truth in knowledge domains of interest, shouldn´t it?

Once again, whether it falls under JREF's $1 million prize I don´t know, but validating the cable-related claims is pertinent to the essence of this educational foundation, in my humble opinion.


Randi may be right -- there may be no difference that is discernible to the human ear -- and he may be wrong -- there may be some individuals who can detect some degree of difference -- but regardless of that, it seems a trite and pointless effort, a useless expenditure of time and money on an almost entirely irrelevant issue, when the JREF could be far better spending its time and money to pursue more worthwhile and meaningful goals.

Many people have donated money to the JREF to fund its efforts. I have a hard time seeing many of those people being concerned about over-priced cables that only a very small number of people are every going to buy, especially when the few people who are buying them are people who will pretty much inevitably have already spent thousands of dollars on other components that will make this purchase seem relatively insignificant overall.

I disagree here. For one thing, validating whether people can tell cables apart shouldn´t be very expensive. But I agree, it can be time consuming.

In any case, I think the issue is not really about helping people not spend too much on expensive audiophile cables; I think the real scientific interest in this is to learn more about human hearing abilities.

What percentage of people worldwide can tell wines apart? To what degree of reliability can those discerning people differenciate those wines? At what ages seem discerning abilities manifest the most? Are women better able to tell wines apart than men, or the other way around? Are women and men equally capable of differentiating wines?

Those same questions could be asked about the ability to detect differences between cables though our sense of hearing, and I think they are valid scientific questions that haven´t been properly answered yet.


There has been quite a large response to the cable challenge. We are slowly working through all of the e-mails regarding it, and will have more information soon. We are also in contact with Michael Fremer. We hope to develop a test for the cable challenge sometime in the near future.
I'd like to stay informed about this, since I'm interested in the cable challenge myself, not so much on the media-attraction of the $1 million.
 
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I was all set to respond with a wine example, but so many people already did, it seems redundant.

I was also going to talk about expensive guitars, violins, and other instruments, but then I did something astounding. I checked the facts on this matter.

Those expensive cables? Based on the scientific evidence, Randi just lost the Million Dollars. I doubt he actually looked at the evidence, or he would never have made the challenge. In fact, anybody looking at the frequency response graph can tell, just by looking at a well known piece of scientific equipment, that the cables have much better ability to transmit energy, than the comparison cables.

Trying to say a better frequency response doesn't equal a better sound is, well, I hate to say it, but it is woo.

No wonder the audiophiles are dismissing the offer as a joke, or a fraud.

Unfortunately, like most offers of $1 million this one is a hoax. While James Randi is claiming to offer a $1 million dollar prize to differentiate between these speaker cables, by reading the official rules of the challenge, it becomes immediately clear that the offer is not valid. One must be able to "demonstrate any psychic, supernatural or paranormal ability" in order to qualify. Since there is a wealth of scientific information explaining the differences between speaker cables, the offer is not a valid one (and James Randi knows it).
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/double-b...ames-randis-1-million-offer-a-hoax-307473.php

Claiming something is paranormal doesn't make it so. Claiming you can have a million dollars is a pretty big claim as well.

I'm sure many an interested part is going to watch how this turns out. Now we will see if the claims that Randi doesn't play fair when it comes to setting up a test are true. This isn't some nobody coming hat in hand, this is Randi making the challenge.

I can't believe he would make such a huge mistake.
Unless the data is a complete fraud, that Pear is running a con, then I am sad to see the Million gone.

Don't believe me?
http://www.pearcable.com/sub_products_comice_frequencyresponse.htm
Now if the claims and data on that page are fraudulent, anybody with a set of cables and a frequency analyzer can tell you this. It isn't paranormal, it is science.

Thus is starting to suck. Unless the data is fake, in which case all is forgiven, and Randi rules.

If it was me challenging somebody for a million dollars? I would buy a set of cables and test them before I claimed they didn't work as advertised. It is the scientific thing to do.
 
Did you actually read the challange which randi issued?
we naively believe that a product should be judged by its actual performance, not by qualities that can only be perceived by attentive dogs or by hi-tech instrumentation
That analysis is meaningless unless they can find anyoen who can hear the difference.


Trying to say a better frequency response doesn't equal a better sound is, well, I hate to say it, but it is woo.
Not neceraly, niot tehy emasured teh voltage at the speaker terminal, they did not compare actual soudn output- a test which would have shown what difference the products make to the output, rather than just the voltage at the terminals.

Claiming something is paranormal doesn't make it so.
true

Claiming you can have a million dollars is a pretty big claim as well.
which is why the JREF produces account statements on request showing that the million exis
 
The protocol for such a test would take less than 2 mins to write up. This clown has called James Randi a liar and has made personal attacks on Randi's character.

Stop faffing about by spending your time preaching to the choir and get after this pompous ass immediately. The JREF has no teeth and many of us are a bit narked now. How long has it been since Randi sat with Penn and was telling us how the MDC was changing on April 1st (over 6 months ago!) and the Foundation would be pro actively going after people? pffft...

Here's a perfect opportunity, and the mousy squeak from the JREF is that they hope to develop a test sometime in the near future?? Sounds like a Sylvia Browne prediction to me. Just like she thinks something bad will happen somewhere sometime in the near future.

:bigclap

Bloody well said.

I completely agree with Reno.

This Fraudio File presents an excellent opportunity for the JREF to show what they are about.

Get Pear Cable to make one specific claim and challenge them on it, if enough experts have verified beforehand that a challenge on said claim is sensible.

You too.

This is a no-brainer. Get the challenge going, make an offer, put it out there, whatever. Any appearance of obfuscation or stalling by JREF is going to do a world of hurt to scepticism. Randi has been unequivocal. Money & mouths...

It is not my place to say, because I do not work for JREF, but I hope that JREF doesn't die on this mountain. :(

I think we're all pretty much in agreement on that. Given that size of the audience, that's why I think it's essential to get on the front foot to these people.

Equally, if there's been a misunderstanding somewhere, get it fixed and fixed fast.

Where's CFLarsen explaining why it's crucial not to lose even a millimetre in battling the "woo"? No doubt he'll come to this thread sooner or later.

Telling the technical difference between two real-world objects is the job of scientists.

Si!

If there's a proven effect, then claiming there isn't is irresponsible in the extreme.

However, I also agree that once the gauntlet has been thrown down, there should be no backing out of it.

caveat emptor and all that...

That's where I am. Money, mouths & feet; let's not get them mixed up.
 
Little off-the-page thinking.

What is the downside if JREF loses this challenge?

Answer: None at all.

Someone coming along and successfully winning the money would generate a lot more publicity than people not winning it.

It would prove beyond all doubt that both the challenge and money exist* and can be won.

*Yes, the million would be gone, but getting another is a piece of cake.
 
Here's a perfect opportunity, and the mousy squeak from the JREF is that they hope to develop a test sometime in the near future?? Sounds like a Sylvia Browne prediction to me. Just like she thinks something bad will happen somewhere sometime in the near future.

Before you accuse JREF of resorting to Sylviaesque methods, keep in mind that a test would have to be designed by both parties.

If you think it takes 2 minutes, write your suggestion for a protocol and send it to JREF. Post it here, and let's discuss it.

Where's CFLarsen explaining why it's crucial not to lose even a millimetre in battling the "woo"? No doubt he'll come to this thread sooner or later.

Post #13.

He bites his tongue who speaks in haste.
~Turkish Proverb
 
Those expensive cables? Based on the scientific evidence, Randi just lost the Million Dollars. I doubt he actually looked at the evidence, or he would never have made the challenge. In fact, anybody looking at the frequency response graph can tell, just by looking at a well known piece of scientific equipment, that the cables have much better ability to transmit energy, than the comparison cables.
We're not talking about superior-testing speaker cables, we're talking about superior-sounding speaker cables.

At which point you're testing using the human ear, not a bunch of machines. Because the claim is that they sound better, not that they produce better results in testing equipment. According to your logic, we should only test medicines in test tubes, and not do any human medical testing at all. "If it kills cancer cells in the test tube, why bother testing using humans?"
 
Before you accuse JREF of resorting to Sylviaesque methods, keep in mind that a test would have to be designed by both parties.

If you think it takes 2 minutes, write your suggestion for a protocol and send it to JREF. Post it here, and let's discuss it.

I'll save him the trouble.

10/20 people picked at random. Given identical CDs to listen to on different machines. Can they tell which one is better?

There you go, took about 20 seconds, never mind two minutes.

Maybe you'd like to start a thread to discuss that?

Post #13.

I'd seen that you were here alright, which is precisely why I worded the comment as I did and why you've chosen not to answer it. You wouldn't be a hypocrite as well would you, CFLarsen?

Your post 13 has already been answered, so now would you like to answer this question:

Why are you demanding immediate action to avoid any besmirching of the good name of JREF and SkepticismTM?

That question ^^^.

You have been very adamant that any weakness will be ruthlessly exposed by Sylvia Browne and other "woos". Why are you so silent on this issue? Paper tigers and all that. ;)

He bites his tongue who speaks in haste.
~Turkish Proverb

Quite right, and if someone has bitten his tongue here, let him spit out the blood and rectify the situation.
 
We're not talking about superior-testing speaker cables, we're talking about superior-sounding speaker cables.

Which is why the whole thing is a piece of cake.

Get some people - some audiophiles even and line them up. This would have to be the simplest test of all time. One sound studio or whatever provides a perfect receptacle to listen to music in, two play systems not visible to the listener/s. Several dozen brand-new CDs.
 
I, too, think that the claim of better audio cables isn't fully crazy. I do not think they are anywhere near worth the cost, but there are reasons to believe analog signals to speakers can be reproduced more effectively with higher quality cables. As such, I don't see the woo factor. The wine examples are dead correct.

I think a more appropriate challenge would be people claiming to have a better digital interconnect cable. Since the science behind digital signaling doesn't support this idea at all, I think it would be a paranormal claim.
 
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10/20 people picked at random. Given identical CDs to listen to on different machines. Can they tell which one is better?
That won't be satisfactory for way too many audiophiles.

Two "different machines" will very likely introduce more variability than the two cables, despite the "machines" having the same brand and model of CD player, interconnects, amplifier, and speakers. (Not to mention, some audiophiles will even argue against using a CD player instead of a turntable as source in the first place.) Also, a system to compare cables should in principle be of extremely high resolving quality. Put the audiophiles into a test with a system of rather poor resolving quality and they won't accept the testing protocol.

One way to compare cables is to do instant A/B switching with a switchbox, using the very same system. The only difference between having the system in A vs. in B will be the cables being tested. The switchbox just changes which cables carry current between two of the components in the audio chain. But some cable believers will argue that the switchboxes themselves will possibly deteriorate whatever improvement the challenged cables introduce.

10/20 people picked at random won't prove anything. You choose 10/20 people picked at random to see whether they can tell a premium wine from a bunch of regular wines and most likely no one will be able to do it. That won't disprove the fact that some people can tell premium wines from regular ones, identifying the grape, the region and manufacturer it comes from, and in some cases even the year of the crop. (!)

The music shouldn't necessarily be satisfactory if picked at random either. Audiophiles usually have their personal selection of "testing tracks," a selection of the music they know best and have heard hundreds of times on several kinds of equipment, exhibiting features in the music that they know how should usually sound, and music for which they know how and when to focus their listening skills on.

There's also the fact that the quality of recordings vary greatly, depending on several factors/artifacts introduced in the recording and mixing process. Testing tracks chosen by audiophiles are usually particularly well recorded tracks.

Coming up with a satisfactory testing method for cables won't be trivial.
 
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I think a more appropriate challenge would be people claiming to have a better digital interconnect cable. Since the science behind digital signaling doesn't support this idea at all, I think it would be a paranormal claim.

Different digital cables might carry the same information with different timing errors (jitter.) The issue would be to verify what levels of jitter humans are able to detect, to see whether the normal components' jitter, plus the jitter introduced by cables is really within human detectability thresholds. I think the interesting thing to find out would be what the distribution of sensitivity to jitter is like in humans.
 
Different digital cables might carry the same information with different timing errors (jitter.) The issue would be to verify what levels of jitter humans are able to detect. But not the regular average joe. I think the interesting thing would be to find out what the distribution of sensitivity to jitter is like in humans.
jitter error is only going to matter for highly degraded signals. It's like digital video. YOu either have a good signal or you get jumpy pixelation. It's obvious when you have one or the other.
 
jitter error is only going to matter for highly degraded signals.
That's what needs backing up. How high does that degradation need to get before becoming humanly detectable? Some equipment do perform differently under different jitter levels, it would be interesting to find out whether some people can indeed detect (as they claim) those differences in performance of the equipment under (which) different low jitter levels.

This is off-topic though. But in any case, the detectable differences between digital cables (and digital "transports" for that matter) wouldn't be paranormal under these observations I'm pointing out.
 
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Coming up with a satisfactory testing method for cables won't be trivial.

I can't see why. Surely it's as simple as having two identical pieces of equipment and using Pear cables on one and not the other. As I said, if people at random won't do, get some audiophiles in. If Randi's right, it wouldn't matter who it is, there is no difference and as long as there's no knowledge of what cable is being used, the test subjects shouldn't make any difference.
 
I can't see why.
Ok to put it with some other words, it won't be out of this world difficult of course, but it won't be a matter of two minutes trivial.

One suggestion: remove the "instant" part of an instant A/B comparison, so no switchboxes involved. You have one satisfactory high-end system. You play some music of choice of one audiophile with cables A (same quality cable on both speakers of course, no funny stuff here.) Then at his command, you are allowed to either swap the cables, or leave those. The subject won't know whether the cables have been swapped. The music plays again, and the subject has to indicate, for each playback session, whether the music sounds:

-2: significantly worse than last time
-1: somewhat worse than last time
0: quite too similar than last time
1: somewhat better than last time
2: significantly better than last time

So in a way, this is comparing always an audition with the previous one, a necessity once removing the "instant" comparison capability. Instead of five options there could be just three, removing the "somewhat" options, -1 and 1.

If you could instant A/B, the subject would only need to select one of the following:

A) A sounds better than B
B) B sounds better than A
C) Can't really tell them apart

But to instant A/B the subject should accept the presence of switchboxes in the chain.


The music, in my opinion, should be each subject's choice. The length of a playback should also be negotiated. Some people might want to compare whole tracks, some might want to repeat specific short sections of a song, with specific instruments, dynamics, or voices.

The number of trials for each particular A/B run of one song/track should be negotiated, as well as the total number of tracks to run through the swapping of cables.


With speaker cables the following is not an issue, but for comparing headphone cables, the resulting sound isn't necessarily the only variable that might tell the subject what cable he is testing. The weight and stiffness of the cable could be felt through the headphones when moving your head even slightly, even without listening to anything. So that comparison would need special considerations to avoid cheating. Comparing speaker cables and interconnects for sure would be much easier than comparing headphone cables.
 
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jitter error is only going to matter for highly degraded signals. It's like digital video. YOu either have a good signal or you get jumpy pixelation. It's obvious when you have one or the other.

Not true. In S/PDIF the jitter adds noise to the analog signal since the DAC uses the incoming timing to drive the DA conversion even if the signal is bit perfect. Jitter definitely can be audible, but a proper DAC should be immune to the incoming jitter (many are not.)
 

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