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Flight 175 plane speed challenged

I'm not going to go back, at least not to check. I wouldn't know what I was looking for. Anyhow, even if there are numbers, it wouldn't be enough; it would just be claimed that it was evidence of an elaborate plot, that the numbers had been added later, or that ... well, you can imagine. The people who challenge the reality of planes on 9/11 are either merely trolling or are profoundly reality-challenged. The kindest notion is that... Well, there is no kindest notion about their statements. I had a friend on 175. Though I spoke to his mother the other day and she is doing well.

Sorry for your loss, if I haven't already said so.

I've seen one or two truthers on this board say they'll believe it was flight 11 or 175 when they see part numbers from the recovered airframe parts that are traceable to the specific airplanes, but I suppose that'll just lead to a small retreat to another woo position.

Dave
 
FAA controllers were in constant radio contact with UA175 from the moment it rotated off the runway until the aircraft was hijacked. This gives us proof positive that an incident occurred on UA175.

In additiona FAA controllers were in constant radar contact with UA175 from the moment it took off until it hit the WTC.

So there was an incident and something happen on flight 175? How does that prove it’s what hit the tower?

I have no idea how you got "video" from "United Airlines employees". UA employees were on the aircraft. UA employees communicated with the aircraft. UA employees tracked the aircraft. UA employees spoke to people on the aircraft. Their accounts all reflect the accepted account of what happened.

As for your "rebuttal that was not"; video is, and can be, evidence. You saying otherwise does not make it so.

I didn’t say there was no such thing as flight 175 or employees that worked on it. How does this prove it’s what hit the tower?

I don't have a clue what you mean by this. FAA radar data is recorded. The recorded data shows UA175's transponder code being changed twice at 0847EDT. The radar data then tracks UA175 as it deviates from its flightpath and descends rapidly as it approaches New York. The final radar return for UA175 is at 1,000ft in close proximity to the WTC.

This radar data is primary evidence supporting the accepted account of what happened to UA175. In order to disprove this account you will need to refute this evidence. And it is evidence. You claiming otherwise does not make it so.

Changed twice? Why’s that? And how do you know they didn’t just start following a different object with a different transponder code at a different altitude? If anything its evidence that it’s not the same transponder code flight 175 started out with. This hurts your case.

It means that there was an incident on UA175 between 0842EDT and 0847EDT that incapacitated the pilots.

I didn’t claim nothing happened to Flight 175.

The accounts those on the aircraft provided match the flight profile of UA175. Your argument can only be true if one of the following is true:

1) The crew and passengers on board UA175 are in on the conspiracy

2) By sheer coincidence, Al Qaeda terrorists hijacked UA175, killed the pilots, took over the plane and descended rapidly towards a city to ram it into a building on the exact same day that some other organisation decided to ram a 767 into WTC2, and managed to do so without anyone at all noticing.

Both of the above are patently absurd, and you know it.

No it does not. They don’t track the plane by phone calls.
Yes your scenario is absurd.
It is a matter of fact that the following five people were passengers on UA175:

Marwan Yousef al-Shehhi
Born in the UAE to a Muslim Cleric. Travelled to Germany to study in February 1996, forming the Hamburg Cell with Mohammed Atta and Ramzi Binalshibh in 1999.
Became increasingly radical and outspoken in his Islamic beliefs before travelling to Kandahar in late 1999 to train with Al Qaeda. In March 2000 he returned to Germany where he began learning to fly an airliner. In April 2000 he arrived in the USA.
He and Mohammed Atta trained at a Venice, Florida flight school and logged hundreds of hours on a Boeing 727 simulator before receiving their licenses in December 2000.
In August 2001 Mossad informs the CIA that he is one of 19 terrorist planning a major operation in the near future.
At approximately 7.25EDT on September 11, 2001, he boarded United Airlines Flight 175 and was in seat 6C.

Fayez Rashid Ahmed Hassan al-Qadi Banihammad
Also from the UAE, and also a licensed pilot, Fayez purchased both his own and Mohand's tickets for UA175. He sat in seat 2A.

Mohand al-Shehri
One of five 9/11 hijackers to come from Asir province in Saudi Arabia, his devotion to Wahhabiism resulted in him failing his studies at Imam Muhammed Ibn Saud Islamic University.
In early 2000 he travelled to fight in Chechnya before travelling to the USA in May 2001. He occasionally trained on flight simulators along with other 9/11 hijackers.
On September 10th, 2001 he spent the night in a hotel with three other hijackers. The following day he boarded UA175, sitting in 2B.

Hamza al-Ghamdi
Met up with fellow devout hijackers in Saudi Arabia in 1999 before going to fight in Chechnya in early 2000. He entered the USA in May 2001, and purchased his and Ahmed al-Ghamdi's tickets for UA175. He sat in seat 9C.

Ahmed Salah al-Ghamdi
Met up with fellow devout hijackers in Saudi Arabia in 1999 before going to fight in Chechnya in early 2000. He arrived in the US in May 2001. He sat in 9D on UA175.

The above five individuals were the only persons on UA175 with arabic names. A male flight attendant on UA175 identified some of their seat numbers in a phone call.

The above five people hijacked UA175 and killed the pilots.

This is all debated and there is no DNA evidence of the hijackers claimed to be on flight 175. Besides even if they were on flight 175 this doesn’t prove it’s what hit the tower.

The profile for UA175, in terms of the hijacking, the passengers, the transponder change, and the deviation of flight path, all match the profile of the other three flights hijacked on 9/11. Collectively, amongst the four flights there is substantial evidence to account for what happened on board.

Individually, it is evidence that a United Airlines Boeing 767, in that place at that time, hit WTC2.

It also matches the profile of other flights that day thought to be possible hijackings. It doesn’t prove it’s what hit the tower.

Individually, it is evidence that a United Airlines Boeing 767, in that place at that time, hit WTC2.

No it’s not. It’s an assumption.

Individually, it is evidence that a United Airlines Boeing 767, in that place at that time, hit WTC2.

No it’s not. It’s an assumption.

Almost certainly.

No it’s not. It’s an assumption.

So the FBI was part of the conspiracy? Why?

Some of them might be but that’s not what I’m talking about.

This is not Ground Zero it’s an Airport. How hard would it be to get personal items from an airplane to an airport? Have you ever flown? Have they ever lost your luggage?

http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local...758567.photogallery?coll=nyc-swapbox-homepage

New York Newsday
March 29, 2004
WTC artifacts await museum
By Errol A. Cockfield Jr.

What's left of the World Trade Center, the very bones of the Twin Towers and the errant artifacts from the worst terror attack in the nation's history, sit now in a cavernous hangar at Kennedy Airport.


This is not Ground Zero it’s a lab. Are you suggesting they did DNA testing and matching down at Ground Zero?

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/journals/256/lessons-learned.html

Identifications are made by comparing the DNA profile of reference samples with those from the human remains. The reference samples can be obtained from: (1) personal items used by the victim (a toothbrush, hairbrush, or razor); (2) banked biological samples (sperm or biopsy tissue from the victim); (3) biological relatives of the victim; and (4) human remains previously identified by other methods or other already-DNA-typed fragmented remains.


Um, no. That's incorrect. A confession is not sufficient evidence for a High Court indictment, especially when the FBI do not have chain of custody for the video.

The videos have been disputed as to what’s on them as well as the video validity and where they originated from. None of it is positive proof of what hit the tower or that the supposed hijackers could perform what is claimed.

You don't seem to understand what circumstantial evidence is. Circumstantial evidence is the primary method by which people are successfully prosecuted for crimes. Circumstantial evidence is often much more powerful than direct evidence, specifically because it is far, far harder to fake.

The evidence I listed is circumstantial evidence which irrefutably proves that UA175 was hijacked and hit WTC2.

I understand it’s not hard evidence. Nothing you’ve presented is hard evidence and most of it isn’t even relevant in any manner as to proving what hit the tower.
 
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SDC, are there any part numbers on those landing gears? That would at least mean that certain truthers would have to learn a different tune.

Dave

Part of the Operation Northwoods plan…

http://thetruthproject.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/northwoods.pdf
Annex to Appendix
to Enclosure A
UNCLASSIFIED
TOP SECRET SPECIAL HANDLING NOFORN
——————–[page 13; page 14:]——————–
TOP SECRET SPECIAL HANDLING NOFORN
UNCLASSIFIED

c. At precisely the same time that the aircraft was presumably shot down a submarine or small surface craft would disburse F-101 parts, parachute, etc., at approximately 15 to 20 miles off the Cuban coast and depart. The pilots returning to Homestead would have a true story as far as they knew. Search ships and aircraft could be dispatched and parts of aircraft found.
 
c. At precisely the same time that the aircraft was presumably shot down a submarine or small surface craft would disburse F-101 parts, parachute, etc., at approximately 15 to 20 miles off the Cuban coast and depart. The pilots returning to Homestead would have a true story as far as they knew. Search ships and aircraft could be dispatched and parts of aircraft found.

Thank you for confirming that your beliefs are faith-based rather than evidence-based, and that you will not only declare any evidence that disagrees with your preconceptions to be faked, but that you will not even accept the possibility of hypothetical evidence that disagrees with your preconceptions. It's always useful to know that the person I'm conversing with is not rational.

Not that I was talking to you in the first place.

Dave
 
Zen, you can't prove the WTC was destroyed either using your 3rd grader logic which requires you to personally see every detail of everything that happened.


Let's jsut say there was high speed HD film of the plane hitting the WTC which showed the faces of every passenger and the tail number. You would claim it was fake. If debris was found at the WTC (which it was) you would claim it's fake. Just ike I am sure you would claim the passport found was planted. The fact is that the evidence proving flight 175 hit the WTC is so overwhelming that it would hold up in any court case.

By your logic, unless you were there personally to watch a murder, then one cannot be convicted of murder. The only evidence that counts is you personally seeing the murder. Nice self satisfying logic. I would just LOVE to see you use such logic in a court of law.


So again, we have the RADAR which tracked the plane right up until it hit the WTC at which point it disappeared. You have the passengers who called in and reported the hijacking. You have the hijackers making announcements live on the air. You have the hijackers confession notes, you have remains of the planes found, you have the DNA, you have the eyewitnesses, you have the airlines who have positively identified their planes, including flight 175. There are a couple documentaries that cover the airline identifying flight 175. One of them says that they weren't sure until they rewound the footage just after the attack and they positively identified it as flight 175. Then you have the mastermind who spoke of the plot, you have the paper trails, the plane tickets, the credit card transactions, eyewitness testimony about the hijackers, etc.


The evidence can go on for days. If you have some evidence that suggests otherwise, NOW is the time to present it. Otherwise you don't have a valid argument beyond "I know you are but what am I?" mentality. Or the child who responds to every answer with "But why?"

No, nothing presented is hard evidence to you, and nothing could ever possibly be hard evidence for you. I could make the same argument about gravity and you couldn't prove to me it existed. So why are you wasting everyones time?
 
Oh look, a Wooer brought up Northwoods. Moving down the cliche check list....

So none of the mounds of evidence prove flight 175 hit the WTC, but a 50 year old rejected operation plan that had nothign to do with anything is proof of an inside job.
 
In typical conspiracy theorist fashion your position is so incredibly ill-defined that it's difficult to pin-point exactly what you are claiming happened to Flight 175 but essentially you are not convinced that the plane that hit the South Tower was Flight 175 or even a Boeing 767.

That’s correct. I would also add that it is disputed by employees of Boeing themselves that a 767 would be able to handle the speed and maneuvers claimed. Never mind an amateur pilot able to control it.

So this leads me to believe that you are trying insinuate, without any evidence I might add, that Flight 175 took off as normal from Logan International Airport and at some point, while the Air Traffic Controller's were in normal radar and radio contact with plane, the passengers and crew were silenced and Flight 175 was switched midair with an identical but highly modified, remotely controlled, United Airlines Boeing 767-222 that then went on to crash into the South Tower. In this period several phone calls to relatives were faked from the passengers aboard the plane and a phone call from one of the flight attendant's to a United Airlines office in San Francisco was also faked.

I’m not using insinuation anymore then the official CT. I’d also like to know where did I claim fake phone calls? If anything the phone calls are more plausible from a different altitude and speed then what was claimed for 175.

The real Flight 175 then landed somewhere else in a covert manner without anyone knowing and the passengers, crew, and plane were disposed of. Since the crew had been silenced I have no idea how, maybe the real Flight 175 was remote controlled as well, hell why not, the conspiracy is already impossibly vast as it is. :boggled:[/COLOR]

Perhaps this is what they did but I don’t see how it’s anymore vast or complicated then the official fairytale.

So the (as yet unknown) perpetrators were able to do all this and rig an identical 767 for remote controlled flight, co-opt various people from the FAA and NORAD etc (the list is virtually endless), fake all the evidence so perfectly that none of the subsequent investigations would notice anything unusual (except a bunch of loony Google investigators) yet they almost screwed up by colliding with another civilian airliner as they approached Manhattan.

The technology to fly a Jetliner by remote exists if that’s what they wanted to do. Systems Planning Corporation manufacture a system developed by Radar Physics Group called the Flight Termination System. It’s a war game technology that allows the control of drones from a remote location. This technology can be used on passenger jets.

So the point I was trying to make is that this is more proof that the plane had been hijacked by a bunch of radical Islamists who didn't have the benefit of radar and years of commercial flight experience to avoid oncoming air traffic and whose sole aim was to crash the plane into the WTC.

I never claimed nothing happened to flight 175.

All the other points you've raised in the reply to my post have been covered by others.

Maybe covered but not with evidence and proof.

As Gumboot mentioned collectively the evidence that Flight 175 hit the South Tower is overwhelming the evidence against simply doesn't exist I'm afraid.

I’m afraid if there is evidence flight 175 hit the tower you have failed to present it.
 
Oh look, a Wooer brought up Northwoods. Moving down the cliche check list....

So none of the mounds of evidence prove flight 175 hit the WTC, but a 50 year old rejected operation plan that had nothign to do with anything is proof of an inside job.

I've yet to see an anthill from any of you never mind a mound.

Even if you have ever been able to positively debunk even one CT it still doesn't make the CT you believe anymore true. But I haven't even seen that much.
 
Zen what evidence would satisfy you?

[Zen Smack mode]Don't talk about evidence. I don't even know what that is. Please don't bother me with facts and allow me continue with my fantasy of being like a fly (just annoying people and eating _____.)[/Zen Smack mode]
 
Perhaps this is what they did but I don’t see how it’s anymore vast or complicated then the official fairytale.

This is the second time that you have used this particular handwaving; you have yet to support it from the first instance. Please give a scenario that is neither vast nor complicated, that somehow manages to get the human remains from "somewhere else" to where they were collected and identified. How many individuals would be involved? In what capacities?

No wonder you simply handwave and say you "don't see how it's anymore [sic] vast or complicated". Beats the heck out of actually realizing how complicated it is.
 
I've yet to see an anthill from any of you never mind a mound.

Even if you have ever been able to positively debunk even one CT it still doesn't make the CT you believe anymore true. But I haven't even seen that much.

I think we have a stundie ladies and gentlemen!
 
Wow that's like asking me how much money would I like.

As much as possible. Are you offering any? Anything at all? Evidence that is.

What have you got?

Do you know the meaning of the word "evidence"? PLENTY has been presented to you. You dismiss it all as not being PROOF, but if you deny that it is EVIDENCE then you are extremely dishonest.

You have been repeatedly presented with loads of evidence of varying degrees to suggest that Flight 175 hit Tower 2. What evidence do you have that Flight 175 did NOT hit Tower 2? Do you have any? Anything at all? Any evidence?

Do you have any evidence?

.....

Evidence? Do you have any?
 
This is the second time that you have used this particular handwaving; you have yet to support it from the first instance. Please give a scenario that is neither vast nor complicated, that somehow manages to get the human remains from "somewhere else" to where they were collected and identified. How many individuals would be involved? In what capacities?

No wonder you simply handwave and say you "don't see how it's anymore [sic] vast or complicated". Beats the heck out of actually realizing how complicated it is.


So are you claiming I haven't given you a scenario at all or the one I give is more vast and complicated then the official CT?

Make up your mind. No wonder you are so confused and easily misled.
 
Do you know the meaning of the word "evidence"? PLENTY has been presented to you. You dismiss it all as not being PROOF, but if you deny that it is EVIDENCE then you are extremely dishonest.

You have been repeatedly presented with loads of evidence of varying degrees to suggest that Flight 175 hit Tower 2. What evidence do you have that Flight 175 did NOT hit Tower 2? Do you have any? Anything at all? Any evidence?

Do you have any evidence?

.....

Evidence? Do you have any?

What I said was there isn't any hard evidence proving flight 175 hit the tower or that flight 175 could reach the speeds and maneuverability claimed. Never mind any proof that an amateur pilot could handle a 767 at the speeds and maneuvers claimed.
 
What I said was there isn't any hard evidence proving flight 175 hit the tower or that flight 175 could reach the speeds and maneuverability claimed. Never mind any proof that an amateur pilot could handle a 767 at the speeds and maneuvers claimed.

The first point in response is that since this happened, there you have proof. "Hard" evidence... plenty has been offered to you, if you mean in the sense of physical evidence (go to the Historical Society, if you want a public display), other sorts of empirical evidence, sightings, .... And people on this thread who are knowledge about planes have said that the plane could perform as observed (but it wasn't a good idea), and as for an "amateur" pilot he had a license.

So I'd argue that there is no point to this thread. You will continue to deny all evidence presented to you, regardless. What a waste of time.

Bye.
 
Heck, I might as well add: your comments are often snide and unpleasant and are no joy to read, whether for informational or for interest. Alas. Ou sont les neiges d'antan? (Or something like that. "Where are the Snowdens of yesteryear?")
 

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