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Flight 175 plane speed challenged

It does not prove the official story true. It merely establishes that it is by far the simplest explanation, fitting the available evidence. As a scientist, I am comfortable with a level of uncertainty, and comparing theories based not on absolutes, but probabilities. The official story is, quite simply, the only one I have seen that does not multiply improbabilities beyond rational belief.

If you mean simple as in dummied down I agree. Sort of like "They hate our freedom" And talk of "Mushroom Clouds" and WMD's. Did you believe that simple nonsense too?

Your backpedalling from "not hard to accomplish" to refusal to provide details is pretty damning here. The plain truth is that what you are suggesting would actually be incredibly difficult to accomplish, requiring the participation of, at a bare minimum, scores of individuals, if not hundreds. Your "not hard to accomplish" scenario requires an additional plane (thus, the many people required to do this are all not wondering what happened to the plane they worked on), the disposal of 175 (but not before extracting at least 12 sets of physical remains--unless you wish to suggest that this was removed prior to takeoff, or somehow parachuted out in midflight), the willing or unknowing participation of investigators at GZ and Fresh Kills (with reduntant procedures that would eliminate the possibility that a single rogue investigator could possibly accomplish what you suggest), some mystery entity charged with transporting (at a minimum--perhaps the extraction as well) at least 12 sets of human remains to appropriate locations, under the eye of the firefighters and others at GZ.

Well look at that. Someone’s obviously got their tights all in a bunch. You're not getting it Mr. Scientist are you? Were the victim remains DNA lab tested right at the spot where they were found? Were the relatives of the victims brought right down to Ground Zero or the landfill to ID personal items? Does everything have to fit in a nice neat dummied down version for you to believe it? Is that why you believe the official CT because an alternative is too much for you to wrap your brain around?

Let me be the first to admit that this does not, at all, prove the official story correct.

Yes I know. I was the one who pointed that out to you.

Proof is for logic and math; this is the real world. All this does is relabel your "not hard to accomplish" as what it actually is--a blatant and insulting lie.

Sorry to screw with your bliss.

And I have no doubt at all by now that you realize this.

What I realize is you have no facts to support your CT and are mad that I pointed it out. Shoot the messenger much?
 
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If you mean simple as in dummied down I agree. Sort of like "They hate our freedom" And talk of "Mushroom Clouds" and WMD's. Did you believe that simple nonsense too?
Irrelevant to the matter at hand. Nice try, though.
Well look at that. Someone’s obviously got their tights all in a bunch. You're not getting it Mr. Scientist are you? Were the victim remains DNA lab tested right at the spot where they were found? Were the relatives of the victims brought right down to Ground Zero or the landfill to ID personal items? Does everything have to fit in a nice neat dummied down version for you to believe it? Is that why you believe the official CT because an alternative is too much for you to wrap your brain around?
No matter where the remains were tested, your theory adds several layers to the procedure. I await your scenario that demonstrates this is not so; I will not hold my breath. Wherever the remains were tested, there is a chain of custody from GZ to that place. The scenario you hint at but fail to provide requires several steps outside that chain, and at a minimum one interference with that chain. No matter how you spin it, your scenario has additional fabricated layers, with not one iota of evidence in support. If you were honest, you would at least admit that.
Yes I know. I was the one who pointed that out to you.
You are years too late to be the one who pointed it out to me.
Sorry to screw with your bliss.
It is not within your power to do so.
What I realize is you have facts to support your CT and are mad that I pointed it out. Shoot the messenger much?
Well, yes, I do have facts to support the official theory. That is why it is the official theory. You have brought nothing, and have as a result...no impact whatsoever. A messenger requires a message; you have none.
 
I think my irony meter just exploded.

What am I dodging exactly? Before you answer, keep in mind that I agree that we don't have 100% completely irrefutable and indisputable proof that Flight 175 hit WTC2. I merely pointed out that given the evidence at our disposal, it's easily the most plausible and rational belief to hold. You've provided nothing to change that - just a bunch of endlessly-repeated retorts.
It's not the most plausible explaination given it's just only one offered up by the Government and it's obvious by the nonsense you do accept from them just about anything they hand you will be accepted by you.
 
The personal insults and bickering need to be calmed down here.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Miss Anthrope
 
I used Google Earth and the FDR data positioning to calculate out the additional g's. The speed was about 300KT however as it varied during the turn I used a constant speed of 350KT (higher velocity = high g-force).

Based on that and the size of the turn circle I got a lateral g-loading of 0.82 g's. Correct me if I am wrong, but when not turning lateral g-loading is 0 isn't it?

I didn't calculate vertical g-loading because the turn actually involved a very minor rate of descent (about 5,000ft in something like 3 minutes) so the vertical negative g-force would be very small.

-Gumboot

Sorry. In unaccelerated flight, the g loading would be 1. The horizontal acceleration for that radius probably is about .82 g, but it's a vector addition.
If the horizontal acceleration had been 1 g, then the bank angle would have been exactly 45 degrees, and the loading on the airplane would be the square root of 2, or about 1.41 g.
If the lateral acceleration was .82 g, then the g loading would have been the square root of (1 squared + .82 squared), about 1.3 g. That fits with what I recall of the FDR data.

The rate of descent doesn't matter, because a constant linear rate is not an acceleration. There probably were some pitch excursions during the turn, but I would expect the load stayed below 1.5 g.
 
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Some of the more recent rule 11 and 12 split over to AAH, including posts that ignored my warning above. Please keep it civil, folks.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Miss Anthrope
 
Some of the more recent rule 11 and 12 split over to AAH, including posts that ignored my warning above. Please keep it civil, folks.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Miss Anthrope

I was typing my response before I saw your post. I apologize, but I still stand by every word I said to ZS. (I'd also like an explanation of his post, if he'd care to post it "somewhere else" or in PM)
 
I'm not saying they didn't track something they believed to be flight 175.


FAA controllers were in constant radio contact with UA175 from the moment it rotated off the runway until the aircraft was hijacked. This gives us proof positive that an incident occurred on UA175.

In additiona FAA controllers were in constant radar contact with UA175 from the moment it took off until it hit the WTC.



Don't know what you mean by that. If you mean video it's not proof.

I have no idea how you got "video" from "United Airlines employees". UA employees were on the aircraft. UA employees communicated with the aircraft. UA employees tracked the aircraft. UA employees spoke to people on the aircraft. Their accounts all reflect the accepted account of what happened.

As for your "rebuttal that was not"; video is, and can be, evidence. You saying otherwise does not make it so.



No original transpoder code so not proof.


I don't have a clue what you mean by this. FAA radar data is recorded. The recorded data shows UA175's transponder code being changed twice at 0847EDT. The radar data then tracks UA175 as it deviates from its flightpath and descends rapidly as it approaches New York. The final radar return for UA175 is at 1,000ft in close proximity to the WTC.

This radar data is primary evidence supporting the accepted account of what happened to UA175. In order to disprove this account you will need to refute this evidence. And it is evidence. You claiming otherwise does not make it so.



Doesn't mean they were in contact with what hit the tower.


It means that there was an incident on UA175 between 0842EDT and 0847EDT that incapacitated the pilots.



Doesn't mean they were calling from what hit the tower.

The accounts those on the aircraft provided match the flight profile of UA175. Your argument can only be true if one of the following is true:

1) The crew and passengers on board UA175 are in on the conspiracy

2) By sheer coincidence, Al Qaeda terrorists hijacked UA175, killed the pilots, took over the plane and descended rapidly towards a city to ram it into a building on the exact same day that some other organisation decided to ram a 767 into WTC2, and managed to do so without anyone at all noticing.

Both of the above are patently absurd, and you know it.



On which object with which transponder code? No DNA was done of hijackers at the towers and just process of elimination of DNA at the pentagon.

It is a matter of fact that the following five people were passengers on UA175:

Marwan Yousef al-Shehhi
Born in the UAE to a Muslim Cleric. Travelled to Germany to study in February 1996, forming the Hamburg Cell with Mohammed Atta and Ramzi Binalshibh in 1999.
Became increasingly radical and outspoken in his Islamic beliefs before travelling to Kandahar in late 1999 to train with Al Qaeda. In March 2000 he returned to Germany where he began learning to fly an airliner. In April 2000 he arrived in the USA.
He and Mohammed Atta trained at a Venice, Florida flight school and logged hundreds of hours on a Boeing 727 simulator before receiving their licenses in December 2000.
In August 2001 Mossad informs the CIA that he is one of 19 terrorist planning a major operation in the near future.
At approximately 7.25EDT on September 11, 2001, he boarded United Airlines Flight 175 and was in seat 6C.

Fayez Rashid Ahmed Hassan al-Qadi Banihammad
Also from the UAE, and also a licensed pilot, Fayez purchased both his own and Mohand's tickets for UA175. He sat in seat 2A.

Mohand al-Shehri
One of five 9/11 hijackers to come from Asir province in Saudi Arabia, his devotion to Wahhabiism resulted in him failing his studies at Imam Muhammed Ibn Saud Islamic University.
In early 2000 he travelled to fight in Chechnya before travelling to the USA in May 2001. He occasionally trained on flight simulators along with other 9/11 hijackers.
On September 10th, 2001 he spent the night in a hotel with three other hijackers. The following day he boarded UA175, sitting in 2B.

Hamza al-Ghamdi
Met up with fellow devout hijackers in Saudi Arabia in 1999 before going to fight in Chechnya in early 2000. He entered the USA in May 2001, and purchased his and Ahmed al-Ghamdi's tickets for UA175. He sat in seat 9C.

Ahmed Salah al-Ghamdi
Met up with fellow devout hijackers in Saudi Arabia in 1999 before going to fight in Chechnya in early 2000. He arrived in the US in May 2001. He sat in 9D on UA175.

The above five individuals were the only persons on UA175 with arabic names. A male flight attendant on UA175 identified some of their seat numbers in a phone call.

The above five people hijacked UA175 and killed the pilots.



Not sure what you mean by that.

The profile for UA175, in terms of the hijacking, the passengers, the transponder change, and the deviation of flight path, all match the profile of the other three flights hijacked on 9/11. Collectively, amongst the four flights there is substantial evidence to account for what happened on board.



Eyewitness that the tower appeared to be hit by something but not proof it was flight 175.

Individually, it is evidence that a United Airlines Boeing 767, in that place at that time, hit WTC2.


Video that the tower appeared to be hit by something but not proof it was flight 175.

Individually, it is evidence that a United Airlines Boeing 767, in that place at that time, hit WTC2.


Photographs that the tower appeared to be hit by something but not proof it was flight 175.

Individually, it is evidence that a United Airlines Boeing 767, in that place at that time, hit WTC2.


Serial numbers?

Almost certainly.


This is the best offered up evidence but but falls short of being positive proof given the fact that if flight 175 was disposed of so were the passengers and personal items. Only 12 DNA remains were said to be found from flight 175 at ground zero. This would not be hard to accomplish after the fact.

So the FBI was part of the conspiracy? Why?



Irrefutable? No. Circumstantial at best. In fact there is supposedly a video confession of UBL claiming responsibility for 9/11. Still it is not enough to secure an indictment. It's not hard evidence according to the FBI.

Um, no. That's incorrect. A confession is not sufficient evidence for a High Court indictment, especially when the FBI do not have chain of custody for the video.

You don't seem to understand what circumstantial evidence is. Circumstantial evidence is the primary method by which people are successfully prosecuted for crimes. Circumstantial evidence is often much more powerful than direct evidence, specifically because it is far, far harder to fake.

The evidence I listed is circumstantial evidence which irrefutably proves that UA175 was hijacked and hit WTC2.

-Gumboot
 
Were the victim remains DNA lab tested right at the spot where they were found? Were the relatives of the victims brought right down to Ground Zero or the landfill to ID personal items?


I believe the answer to both those questions may in fact be "yes".

Even if not, I am sure you are aware that law enforcement agencies have long-established and thorough processes for protecting evidence and preventing its contamination or loss.

Unless you wish to claim all 7,000 Special Agents of the FBI who worked on PENTTBOMB were part of the conspiracy, your assertion that planting this evidence would be easy is complete and utter garbage.

-Gumboot
 
So the FBI was part of the conspiracy? Why?
Yes, because they're evil. Except the agents who put out the Most Wanted list, who courageously left out the part about OBL being wanted for 9/11.

Right Zensmack?
 
In fact Flight 175 almost collided with Delta Airlines Flight 2315 in midair minutes before crashing into the South Tower, why would the plane be flying so erratically and almost endanger the plot?
Assumed to be flight 175 not proven. Maybe it was flying erratically because of the speed. What does that prove anyway?
In typical conspiracy theorist fashion your position is so incredibly ill-defined that it's difficult to pin-point exactly what you are claiming happened to Flight 175 but essentially you are not convinced that the plane that hit the South Tower was Flight 175 or even a Boeing 767.

So this leads me to believe that you are trying insinuate, without any evidence I might add, that Flight 175 took off as normal from Logan International Airport and at some point, while the Air Traffic Controller's were in normal radar and radio contact with plane, the passengers and crew were silenced and Flight 175 was switched midair with an identical but highly modified, remotely controlled, United Airlines Boeing 767-222 that then went on to crash into the South Tower. In this period several phone calls to relatives were faked from the passengers aboard the plane and a phone call from one of the flight attendant's to a United Airlines office in San Francisco was also faked. The real Flight 175 then landed somewhere else in a covert manner without anyone knowing and the passengers, crew, and plane were disposed of. Since the crew had been silenced I have no idea how, maybe the real Flight 175 was remote controlled as well, hell why not, the conspiracy is already impossibly vast as it is. :boggled:

So the (as yet unknown) perpetrators were able to do all this and rig an identical 767 for remote controlled flight, co-opt various people from the FAA and NORAD etc (the list is virtually endless), fake all the evidence so perfectly that none of the subsequent investigations would notice anything unusual (except a bunch of loony Google investigators) yet they almost screwed up by colliding with another civilian airliner as they approached Manhattan.

So the point I was trying to make is that this is more proof that the plane had been hijacked by a bunch of radical Islamists who didn't have the benefit of radar and years of comercial flight experience to avoid oncoming air traffic and whose sole aim was to crash the plane into the WTC.

All the other points you've raised in the reply to my post have been covered by others.

As Gumboot mentioned collectively the evidence that Flight 175 hit the South Tower is overwhelming the evidence against simply doesn't exist I'm afraid.
 
Physical evidence on display

Yesterday I stopped by the New-York [sic] Historical Society on Central Park West and picked up a couple of fliers for exhibits. On now: "Here is New York: Remembering 9/11" has, among other artifacts, the landing gear from AA 11 and UA 175.

Come on down. If you aren't local, or even if you are, you can combine your visit which such sidelights as the Am Mus Nat History, just up the street (many dinosaurs!); on Sundays, the West 76th St. Flea Market (on a playground at Columbus Ave); and, shucks I don't know what else. Whatever you want.

So see some (physical) evidence and have a nice day while you are at.
 
My name's Napoleon and I own a mansion and a yacht. Prove me wrong Will you be addressing the identification of flight 175 anytime soon?


Back to your "experts" who claim a 767 didn't hit the South Tower......

What you fail to understand is that claiming the aircraft was something other than a 767 is akin to claiming the sky is yellow, or like claiming that an Alsation is a cat, or claiming that this is a Trans Am. It's not in dispute.....I don't know if I can make it any clearer.

As I and others have pointed out, we can figure out pretty easily that the 767 in question was flight 175 by: radar data, DNA, the fact that 175 didn't land, the fact that UA is missing a 767 - the very one which took off from Logan on 911 as flight 175, visual evidence, 767 specific engine and landing gear parts, etc, etc....

I dont know why you want so badly to believe it wasn't flight 175, perhaps you should do some soul-searching.
 
Yesterday I stopped by the New-York [sic] Historical Society on Central Park West and picked up a couple of fliers for exhibits. On now: "Here is New York: Remembering 9/11" has, among other artifacts, the landing gear from AA 11 and UA 175.

SDC, are there any part numbers on those landing gears? That would at least mean that certain truthers would have to learn a different tune.

Dave
 
SDC, are there any part numbers on those landing gears? That would at least mean that certain truthers would have to learn a different tune.

Dave

I didn't go into the exhibit; I had to meet the family nearby, and I just stopped in to see what was new.

I'm not going to go back, at least not to check. I wouldn't know what I was looking for. Anyhow, even if there are numbers, it wouldn't be enough; it would just be claimed that it was evidence of an elaborate plot, that the numbers had been added later, or that ... well, you can imagine. The people who challenge the reality of planes on 9/11 are either merely trolling or are profoundly reality-challenged. The kindest notion is that... Well, there is no kindest notion about their statements. I had a friend on 175. Though I spoke to his mother the other day and she is doing well.
 

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