"Secular School Barred by Whitehall"

[CapelDodger]

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2175185,00.html

A headteacher who tried to reduce the influence of religion inside the classroom by creating the country's first secular state school had his plans blocked by senior government officials who called it a 'political impossibility'.

Dr Paul Kelley, head of Monkseaton High School in Tyneside - the first to join the government's flagship 'trust school' scheme - wanted to challenge the legal requirement in all state schools for pupils to take part in a daily act of worship of a broadly Christian nature.

Strange thing is, in the UK church and state are like that, you know?, with Queenie head of both. Bishops sitting in the Upper Chamber.

And yet it's a far less observant society. Some lessons to be learnt from that, perhaps? Associate Christianity with the educational experience and they never come back .

 

[quixotecoyote]

Cute example, but the attitude there is that Christianity is part of the culture, but shouldn't be in control.

In the US if more of the giving an inch and taking a mile.

 

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Strange thing is, in the UK church ...r) and Northern Ireland is even more complex.

 

[Big Les]

And most people pay only lip service to the church, if that, holding to some vague version of the christian god only when they need comfort or simply occasion. Whilst a secular school is a nice idea, it's fairly redundant. Faith schools are barely a blip on the radar unless you have more than one surname, and in state schools you can simply opt out of any religious observation. Or at least do what I did (and still do at weddings etc) and just sit/stand there politely.

The old joke holds true - "Are you religious?" "Oh no, I'm C(hurch) of E(ngland)".

 

[Lothian]

And most people pay only lip service to the church, if that, holding to some vague version of the christian god only when they need comfort or simply occasion. Whilst a secular school is a nice idea, it's fairly redundant. Faith schools are barely a blip on the radar unless you have more than one surname, and in state schools you can simply opt out of any religious observation. Or at least do what I did (and still do at weddings etc) and just sit/stand there politely.

The old joke holds true - "Are you religious?" "Oh no, I'm C(hurch) of E(ngland)".

I agree that it is mostly redundant but don’t agree with your conclusion.

If it is redundant why bother at all ?

I imagine that religious assemblies in school up and down the country get very little pupil interest and attention. I suspect they are as popular as they would be if instead of religion it was politics being discussed every morning..

How would you feel if it was the labour party getting the free half hour each morning, justified by a sit out on your own in a classroom option for parents sending in a note.

It is wrong to give this much exposure to any ideology, especially an ideology that is not followed by the majority of the country.

I think in looking at this subject the question is not where have we come from rather where should we be going.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Strange thing is, in the UK church...does not seem to be a less observant society.

 

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Whilst a secular school is a nice idea, it's fairly redundant. Faith schools are barely a blip on the radar unless you have more than one surname,

Pretty big blip. 32% of schools in England and 23% of school places.

http://www.learning-together.org.uk/docs/statistics.htm

In Scotland it is roughly 17% for both (from a quick google and a few calcs)

I wasn't aware such a large percentage of the population had double barrelled names.

and in state schools you can simply opt out of any religious observation.

Maybe the non-religious should have separate beaches or be required to sit at the back of the bus as well?

 

[CapelDodger]

The position in the UK is far, far more complicated than you make out.

It wasn't meant to be a presntation, more a broad-brush thing.

The Church in Wales is disestablished, the Church of Scotland is not a state church but is a national church (and Queen Liz is a member, not the head although she does get to appoint the Lord High Commissioner) and Northern Ireland is even more complex.

I should have referred to "England and Wales", since the Scottish educational system is independent. And we know the trouble that can be caused by foisting bishops on the Scots.

The Welsh tradition is strongly Methodist - church for the Anglo-Welsh upper-classes, chapel (or capel) for the workers.

Northern Ireland - fuggedaboudit.

All the same, in E&W there is a requirement (widely ignored in practice) for a daily "act of worship of a broadly Christian nature" in schools, and there are Bishops sitting as of right in the House of Lords. Brenda is Defender of the Faith, and if that involves offing troublesome priests from time to time, well, she's also Commander in Chief so that can be arranged.

 

[CapelDodger]

... in state schools you can simply opt out of any religious observation.

Not in my day. It required a letter from your parents, unless everybody knew you were Catholic or Jewish or whatever. You couldn't get out of it by being an atheist without parental backing. I tried. Naturally, my parents thought it was "just a phase". My mother still did until last year, I discovered.

Or at least do what I did (and still do at weddings etc) and just sit/stand there politely.

You can get out of the church bit by "not wanting to demean other people's beliefs" (unless you're Best Man or some such). In a fine tradition, there's always at least one pub near any church . Often just across the road.

The old joke holds true - "Are you religious?" "Oh no, I'm C(hurch) of E(ngland)".

I'll try that on Rowan next time I see him. "Hey Rowan, are you religious?" "Well ... not according to anybody else ...".

 

[CapelDodger]

Well Imams run both in Iran and it does not seem to be a less observant society.

That was sloppy of me, implicitly associating the "separation of church and state" thing with the US. After all, there's France to consider as well .

In Iran, observance amongst the under-30's - the post-Shah demographic - is low (in Iranian terms) and dropping. Under the Shah, education was secular, and the demographic from those days is much more observant. So my speculation just about holds up.

 

[Jaggy Bunnet]

All the same, in E&W there is a requirement (widely ignored in practice) for a daily "act of worship of a broadly Christian nature" in schools, and there are Bishops sitting as of right in the House of Lords. Brenda is Defender of the Faith, and if that involves offing troublesome priests from time to time, well, she's also Commander in Chief so that can be arranged.

English bishops only apparently - Welsh bishops lost the right when the church was dissestablished on the split from the CoE.

 

[cj.23]

And yet it's a far less observant society. Some lessons to be learnt from that, perhaps? Associate Christianity with the educational experience and they never come back .

I'm actually an Anglican, but yes that was my theory too. I discuss the oddity in my first ever thread on the JREF - http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70686


cj x

 

[Beerina]

This case shows the upside and the downside of democracy in one nice little package.

Of course you could start a religion-free school; whoever wants to send their kids there can.

But no, the 60% majority must control 100% of things 100% of the time.

And the only way to change things isn't via political philosophy, but by getting enough votes on your side.

 

[Lonewulf]

This case shows the upside and the downside of democracy in one nice little package.

Of course you could start a religion-free school; whoever wants to send their kids there can.

But no, the 60% majority must control 100% of things 100% of the time.

That's how an athenian democracy works, surely. As far as I know, the U.S. Government doesn't work this way (balance of powers, anyone? It's not mob rule), and as far as I understand, the U.K. Government doesn't work this way either.

 

[CapelDodger]

English bishops only apparently - Welsh bishops lost the right when the church was dissestablished on the split from the CoE.

Twenty-six remain, IIRC. Not that it's a major issue in an Upper House full of unelected placemen.

A very strange system of government, but it does work reasonably well. You can clearly see evidence of evolution in it, whereas in the US system you can clearly see evidence of intelligent design. The intelligent choice at its inception was separation of church and state.

 

[Big Les]

Don't get me wrong, if I had my way the buggers wouldn't so much be able to stick leaflets through the school door, and "faith schools" would be naught but smoking holes in the Middle English landscape. I just don't think "we" have it so bad.

My point was that I don't see the need to "other" ourselves and our offspring any more than necessary. It seems like the educational equivalent of the "Brights" debacle. I'd rather further reduce the religious influence already upon schools for all, than to create some educational haven or ghetto for "atheist children". I also don't think keeping children away from those already indoctrinated to some extent is necessarily a good thing. They're going to have to deal with them in adult life, after all.

 

[CapelDodger]

I'm actually an Anglican, but yes that was my theory too. I discuss the oddity in my first ever thread on the JREF - http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70686


cj x

(I'm actually a clean-skin atheist, never inducted into any religion. I never even joined the Scouts .)

Sounds like we had very similar experiences at school, with very similar results. My RE teacher for a year was a Methodist minister. I heard a few years later that he'd lost his faith. I don't claim that as a definite kill, but I like to think it was .

 

[CapelDodger]

Don't get me wrong, if I had my way the buggers wouldn't so much be able to stick leaflets through the school door, and "faith schools" would be naught but smoking holes in the Middle English landscape. I just don't think "we" have it so bad.

Neither did Henry VIII, and it didn't stop him getting into ti for fun and profit.

Things could indeed be worse :

Ireland forced to open immigrant school
http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,,2176451,00.html

"The school was created out of incompetence rather than design. A huge population increase, partly due to immigration from Africa, China and eastern Europe, has put enormous pressure on the school system. The result, according to one local councillor, has been the creation of a "mini-apartheid" in the seaside town, with the new "emergency" school almost exclusively filled with the children of immigrants.
Dozens of children from non-Irish ethnic backgrounds had been turned down by local Catholic schools principally because they did not hold Catholic baptismal certificates. More than 90% of schools in the republic are run by the Catholic church. Up to 100 children were facing the new term with no place at primary school in the north Co Dublin region"

There's more :

""When I contacted one particular school to see if they had a place for Jordan I was told 'We only pick our own' ...
"When I asked what this meant I was again told 'I am just saying to you that we only pick our own.'

My point was that I don't see the need to "other" ourselves and our offspring any more than necessary.

I heartily agree. In the UK the educational "othering" is more by class than actual religious observance. If faith schools didn't do the trick, the middle classes would find another way.

 

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Don't get me wrong, if I had my way the buggers wouldn't so much be able to stick leaflets through the school door, and "faith schools" would be naught but smoking holes in the Middle English landscape. I just don't think "we" have it so bad.

My point was that I don't see the need to "other" ourselves and our offspring any more than necessary. It seems like the educational equivalent of the "Brights" debacle. I'd rather further reduce the religious influence already upon schools for all, than to create some educational haven or ghetto for "atheist children". I also don't think keeping children away from those already indoctrinated to some extent is necessarily a good thing. They're going to have to deal with them in adult life, after all.

I rather suspect that the point of the proposal to have a secular school was entirely to have it blocked on the grounds that it would be illegal, thereby hopefully prompting some debate on why this should be the case, rather than any real desire to have a separate secular education system.

 

[cj.23]

(I'm actually a clean-skin atheist, never inducted into any religion. I never even joined the Scouts .)

Sounds like we had very similar experiences at school, with very similar results. My RE teacher for a year was a Methodist minister. I heard a few years later that he'd lost his faith. I don't claim that as a definite kill, but I like to think it was .

Yes sounds like it - I was unable to join the Boy Sprouts - I refused to swear the Oath because of the God bit, as I was a passionate atheist as a lad!
cj x