10 story hole in WTC 7

[Christopher7]

Chris, you may want to see post #65 from the attached link before you get too deep into your shadow theory. Using shadows to tell time among buildings is extremely difficult and you will need to provide some pretty serious geometry calculations for us to accept your findings.

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=20056&st=50&p=408373&#entry408373

Thank you for the link
You are a gentleman and a scholar.

The sun was due south at 12:52 p.m. EDT
The sun was at the angle shown in the following graphic at 2:47 p.m. EDT
[+ or – 10 minutes for angle error]

Azimuth is the angle along the horizon, with zero degrees corresponding to North, and increasing in a clockwise fashion. Thus, 90 degrees is East, 180 degrees is South, and 270 degrees is West.
NEW YORK, NEW YORK
o , o ,
W 73 55, N40 44
Altitude and Azimuth of the Sun
Sep 11, 2001
Eastern Standard TimeDaylight time is [FONT=&quot]not implemented[/FONT] in this program. When daylight time is in use, add one hour to the times listed in the table.

Altitude Azimuth (E of N)
h m o o
11:50 53.6 179.1*
12:00 53.6 183.3
13:40 46.3 220.8
13:50 45.0 223.9*
14:00 43.7 226.8

Source
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz

 

[Christopher7]

Article dated September 11, 2001:
First calling for help, they scrambled downstairs to the lobby, or what was left of it. "I looked around, the lobby was gone. It looked like hell," Jennings said.

On 9/11 he also said "We made it to the 8th floor. Big explosion! Blew us back into the 8th floor."
This was obviously an overstatement as it would have required blowing them both through a closed fire door.
[FONT=&quot][he probably meant the 8th floor landing IMO]

[/FONT] Barry is not your go to guy when seeking an accurate description of damage.

The professional firefighters, sometimes referred to here as experts, gave a fairly detailed description of the lobby.
"No heavy debris was observed in the lobby area as the building was exited, primarily white dust coating and black wires hanging from ceiling areas were observed"

I see that Christopher 7 is claiming that a NIST photo is fake. He's a real good photo analyst. One of the best.

Thank you

I wonder what happened to him ordering the copies of photos from NIST, which he said he would do long ago.

Report not final, therefore, documents will not be released.

 

[funk de fino]

On 9/11 he also said "We made it to the 8th floor. Big explosion! Blew us back into the 8th floor."
This was obviously an overstatement as it would have required blowing them both through a closed fire door.
[FONT=&quot][he probably meant the 8th floor landing IMO]

[/FONT] Barry is not your go to guy when seeking an accurate description of damage.
The professional firefighters, sometimes referred to here as experts, gave a fairly detailed description of the lobby.
"No heavy debris was observed in the lobby area as the building was exited, primarily white dust coating and black wires hanging from ceiling areas were observed"

Thank you

Report not final, therefore, documents will not be released.

he is not your guy to go to about explosions before the towers fell then?

he is all you had for this unless you can post Hess statement?

are you admitting we have to totally disregard everything jennings says now?

i'm happy to if you are

 

[funk de fino]

The 'king kong' remark is not specified by Jennings as to have occurred before WTC 1 fell.

sorry.

And?

 

[Christopher7]

The sun was at the angle shown in the following graphic at 2:50 p.m. EDT

 

[buka001]

Seems awfully familiar to Terral's pentagon timeline theory. Use of shadows to determine time.

Can you clearly outline your hypothesis in regards to the time. Indicate clearly on the photographs. I would like to see your calculations. You have not done this. You quoted some text and you have drawn some nice lines on a cartesian plane. Detail the calculations. Show the shadows. Illustrate how this contradicts the official time of the photo.

I am struggling to see the direct connection. I see alot of words but no proof.

 

[twinstead]

Why do conspiracy theorists always claim to be expert photo and video analysts?

 

[Belz...]

And?

And he stopped reading there, obviously.

 

[Belz...]

Why do conspiracy theorists always claim to be expert photo and video analysts?

Because, like most people, they give their senses too much credit, and give other people's expertise too little.

 

[GlennB]

The sun was at the angle shown in the following graphic at 2:50 p.m. EDT

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/9899/wtcsunanglegraphicsp8.jpg

You're making the same kind of mistake as Terral over on LCF.

The shadow on the Winter Gardens* isn't being cast by the top of the building, as your line would indicate. It's being cast by the base of the building. Also you have it just clipping the Winter Gardens. In the original photo it's much more central.

I accuse you of i) wilful distortion or ii) ignorance

*sorry, I'm in a rush here. As I recall this is what that structure was called.

 

[Christopher7]

Can you clearly outline your hypothesis in regards to the time. Indicate clearly on the photographs.

The shadow of the Merrill Lynch Building [on right] intersects Wintergarden right where the damaged section meets the lower section on the right, and continues up to the [11].

The Azimuth* of the sun in the following graphic is 225[FONT=&quot]° [/FONT]

I would like to see your calculations. You have not done this.

I did, in post #3661 [probably wasn't very clear]
Here's the main part:

NEW YORK, NEW YORK
Sep 11, 2001
Eastern Standard Time Daylight time is [FONT=&quot]not implemented[/FONT] in this program. When daylight time is in use,
add one hour to the times listed in the table.

*Azimuth is the angle along the horizon, with zero degrees corresponding to North, and increasing in a clockwise fashion. Thus, 90 degrees is East, 180 degrees is South, and 270 degrees is West.

..............................Azimuth
13:50 [2:50 p.m. EDT] 223.9
13:54 [2:54 p.m. EDT] 225.0*
14:00 [3:00 p.m. EDT] 226.8

Source
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz

Illustrate how this contradicts the official time of the photo.

NIST states this photo shows the fires on the west side burned out before 2:00 p.m. Shadows on Verizon building confirm the time that portion of the photograph was taken.[about 1:00 p.m. EDT - Azimuth 183.3[FONT=&quot]° [/FONT]]

The conundrum is:
The first photo shows the fires on floors 17, 18 and 22 are still going at 2:50.

The WTC 7 portion of the NIST photo was taken sometime after 2:50 p.m. EDT.

***********************************************

At 2:50 p.m. the corner windows on the west side on floors 14 and 15 and the fascia between them were not seriously damaged.

 

[Norseman]

The sun was at the angle shown in the following graphic at 2:50 p.m. EDT

[qimg]http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/9899/wtcsunanglegraphicsp8.jpg[/qimg]

Christopher7, your W, S and E arrows are ca 30 degrees off the true directions. In other words your S arrow is pointing 210 degrees to SW and not 180 degrees straight south as it should. If you correct this in your photo, then suddenly the 2:50 p.m. arrow is close to where your S arrow is pointing.

Please feel free to check this fact with any map you like. Like Google Maps, the maps are oriented along true north.

Here are some photos of the WTC 7 and the Verizon building just before noon and at noon.

Why did you do this mistake Christopher7?

 

[Norseman]

[FONT=&quot]In the
The NIST photo is a FAKE

[/FONT]

The NIST photo is not a fake. What you are looking at in the NYPD photo that NIST used in its preliminary report on WTC 7 is the effects of light refraction and maybe to some degree lens distortions.

All relevant details are present in both the NYPD photo and the Aman Zafar photo. Since the NYPD photo is taken from above, the light from the damaged area have to move up through a lot of hot air/smoke that is rising up along the face of the building. But the effects of refraction is very evident in all parts of the NYPD picture when you look at the window frames.

Relevant Wikipedia articles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refraction

 

[jaydeehess]

refresh my memory Chris. on what page of this thread did we already cover those two photos.

I don't know if anyone has answered my question yet (don't have time to look) but this (the supposed fake NIST photo of WTC 7's corner damage) was covered starting on page 44 of this thread.

 

[Christopher7]

The shadow on the Winter Gardens* isn't being cast by the top of the building, as your line would indicate. It's being cast by the base of the building.

The lower parts that stick out are also set back from the corner.
The shadow is being cast by the corner.
[in the next photo]

Also you have it just clipping the Winter Gardens. In the original photo it's much more central.

Wrong
Winter Garden has 4 sections [and a little blurb in front].
Section 4 is closest to the river.[closest to us in this photo]
Section 3 is the largest.
Section 2 has a hole in the roof as does
Section 1
[The blurb in front is not visible in these photos]

The shadow starts where sections 2 and 1 meet on the right side.

The direction of sunlight line goes thru this point.
[see post #3671]

I accuse you of i) wilful distortion or ii) ignorance

Before you accuse me, take a look at yourself.

 

[jaydeehess]

Chris, perhaps you'd like tp correct your compas direction for South. It is incorrect. None of the WTC buildings faced directly south.

 

[alexg]

Chris, look at the pieces of debris sticking out of the windows on the 15th floor. They are the same in both shots. The long, angular stuff hanging out..

And look at how much wider the windows are in the upper view. The image is definitely stretched possibly by a factor of 2, but only as you near the edge. I have no idea why this is the case but it is.

I submit the photos are showing the same damage. The upper shot is at a bad angle and is distroted. That is all. This is a classic cherry pick, IMHO.

In your inevitable attempt at a rebuttal please address these 2 points specifically.

And keep in mind that we have already established the apparent corner at this level is not a corner, it is too close to the damaged windows, the corner is destroyed. There is no mystery here except why the one upper photo, supposedly directly from NIST, is distoreted in aspect near the corner.

From the NIST photo it is clear that the damage gets dramatically worse JUST below what is visible in the other photo. Too bad. That photo is simply not helping you.

 

[Christopher7]

Christopher7, your W, S and E arrows are ca 30 degrees off the true directions. In other words your S arrow is pointing 210 degrees to SW and not 180 degrees straight south as it should.

I was going by this graphic. Oops
Vesey Street runs east and west. Note the north indicator - upper left.

Note the 'late afternoon' turned out to be right

Corrected graphic:

.............................. Asmuth
15:50 [4:50 p.m. EDT] 252.3
15:55 [4:55 p.m. EDT] 253.2*
16:00 [5:00 p.m. EDT] 254.2

...............................Asmuth
13:00 [2:00 p.m. EDT] 207.2

Please feel free to check this fact with any map you like. Like Google Maps, the maps are oriented along true north.

Corrections made, thank you.

 

[Christopher7]

The NIST photo is not a fake. What you are looking at in the NYPD photo that NIST used in its preliminary report on WTC 7 is the effects of light refraction and maybe to some degree lens distortions.

Effects of light refraction? Grasp at straws much?
There are distortions but the corner windows on 14 and 15 and the fascia around them is clearly missing or severely damaged in the NIST photo and clearly there in the other photo.

All relevant details are present in both the NYPD photo and the Aman Zafar photo.

No. There is stuff hanging from a raged edge and the windows on 14 and 15 are just not there in the NIST photo.

 

[Christopher7]

Chris, look at the pieces of debris sticking out of the windows on the 15th floor. They are the same in both shots. The long, angular stuff hanging out..

More or less

And look at how much wider the windows are in the upper view. The image is definitely stretched possibly by a factor of 2, but only as you near the edge. I have no idea why this is the case but it is.

The photo has been stretched out to make the damage look bigger.
How can the windows furthest away, top to bottom, get stretched to twice their normal size?
The photo did not come out of the camera that way.
Things further away from the camera appear smaller.

I submit the photos are showing the same damage. The upper shot is at a bad angle and is distroted. That is all. This is a classic cherry pick, IMHO.

Classic denial IMHO.

In your inevitable attempt at a rebuttal please address these 2 points specifically.

And keep in mind that we have already established the apparent corner at this level is not a corner, it is too close to the damaged windows, the corner is destroyed.

The corner cannot be seen, but the fascia between the corner and the windows can be seen, and the windows on 14 and 15 still have their rectangular shape in the Zafar photo but not in the NIST photo.
In the NIST photo, the wall is pushed in. No sign of this in the Zafar photo.

From the NIST photo it is clear that the damage gets dramatically worse JUST below what is visible in the other photo.

So what?
The damage on 14 and 15 is clearly different in the two photos.