Paycheck To Paycheck workers

[JoeEllison]

It doesn't work, though, does it? What has raising the minimum wage, for example, ever really accomplished over the long run?

They should have raised it higher, and established a maximum wage as well. *shrugs*

 

[balrog666]

That's my position as well. The common "get a better job" nonsense is hateful and stupid. Someone has to cashier at the supermarket, prepare our food, pick our fruit, and all the other jobs that don't get much respect in this country. Those jobs should simply pay more, instead of people having to work two of them to make ends meet.

The "get a better job" nonsense is a shortcut way of telling someone to get off their lazy bum and learn a productive skill.

There is no real demand for people with no skills and no ambition, so they do not command a high price. And they never will.

 

[Morrigan]

I have never been a paycheck-to-paycheck worker. Of course, getting a $3k check for finishing my studies in the minimum amount of time (for once our government has been generous - see, the IT program (and someo thers) had so many failures and drop-outs, that they awarded money to students who finished the program in the 3-year minimum... sure is a nice incentive) and then staying with my dad for the first few months of my career (before I eventually found a nice apartment with my boyfriend) allowed me to save up quite a bit of money before I entered the bill-paying world, but nonetheless, I have never been in debt and never paid a single cent of interest (that might change only if I buy a house), and while I am not a completely careless spender who eats out every day, I am not stingy or anything: I spend freely on chocolate cookies and niceties at the supermarket, I eat out once or twice a week on average (lunch or dinner), I buy a lot of CDs and books and recently bought a new computer. I can afford to travel to Europe and stay in a decent hotel. I plan to buy an Xbox 360 soon. I take kendo classes, and last year I spent $700 on a shiny new high-quality bogu. That's not counting the rest of the equipment.

To be fair, we have no car (public transportation is more than enough to get around in Montreal) and no children, only a kitten. And we don't smoke or drink. But I know several people like me, no cars and no children, but who live paycheck-to-paycheck. One co-worker with a similar salary (possibly higher since he's been there for longer than I) eats out for -every- meal. He has nothing in the fridge except beer sometimes, it all belongs to his roommates and he never touches. But he's smart enough to realize it does cost him more (he also smokes) than it would. He realizes it's his lifestyle choice, he prefers it that way and accepts it's more expensive, and does not complain. Others I know, though, are not so firmly stuck in reality, but max out their credit card by buying PS3 games or World of Warcraft subscriptions.

 

[jsfisher]

They should have raised it higher, and established a maximum wage as well. *shrugs*

I'd predict that would not have a positive impact you expect.

 

[JoeEllison]

The "get a better job" nonsense is a shortcut way of telling someone to get off their lazy bum and learn a productive skill.

There is no real demand for people with no skills and no ambition, so they do not command a high price. And they never will.

So, you're saying that no one needs to cook your food or pick your crops, it will just happen on its own? Buildings will clean themselves, hotels will have magical self-cleaning rooms, and your trash will carry itself to the dump?

 

[JoeEllison]

I'd predict that would not have a positive impact you expect.

Sure it would. Why not? Do you think people will refuse to work if they ONLY make $50,000,000 a year?

 

[Geek Goddess]

My aunt was the caseworker/social worker for the Salvation Army in a city of about 100,000 for almost 20 years. Everyone who needed assistance came through her doors. There are people in desperate straits -the working poor who had troubles making ends meet, especially when one disaster struck -usually a large medical bill. She herself had such a high medical bill, when her husband got cancer and ended up dying. Her own wages were just about what the official poverty level was, so that she could not qualify for the assistance she was giving others. The hospital ended up writing most of her bills off.

Because of problems with her knees and hips, she decided to take early retirement. Except, being two years short of Medicare, she decided not to pay for Cobra on her insurance, and let it drop. She determined it was too expensive to afford, and so decided to forgo insurance. I love my aunt, but she made some really stupid decisions. She has diabetes, and decided to not pay for insurance, or to not stick it out and work two more years. However, she has cable, high speed internet, four large dogs that need feeding and vet care, and has 1,548 UNIQUE feedbacks on ebay. (Unique in that it doesn't count multiple transactions from the same seller). She doesn't sell, that's purchases she has made in four years. It's a sickness. I looked at what she has bought - and the amount she spends exclusive of shipping would have paid for her insurance premium. And yet she whines endlessly about how poor she is, how no one cares if she died from her diabetes, and how she can't even afford groceries. She told my mom the total of her credit card payments is more than her and her current husband's combined social security and retirement checks, so she used money she got from the sale of my grandmother's house and her lump-sum distribution from her retirement to make the minimum payments on the cards, until that money ran out. Then she filed for bankruptcy. Within three months, someone had sent her a credit card, and she's back to buying on ebay and eating out. She also smokes heavily. Aren't cigs about $6 a package??

I contrast that with people who work very hard, frequently at two jobs, have children they are supporting, bills to pay, medical bills, and don't have needless expenditures like cable, and live on the edge. In my mind, those people need help with tax breaks, etc., not people like my aunt who chose to do really stupid stuff, her entire life, and constantly looked for other people to bail her out. BTW, she has both a bachelor's and a master's degree, which she earned when she was in her 30s.

 

[jsfisher]

Sure it would. Why not? Do you think people will refuse to work if they ONLY make $50,000,000 a year?

You are ignoring the other half of your proposal. You said we should have raised the minimum wage much, much higher. Ok, how high? If that's all it takes to eliminate poverty, let's do it. There are nothing but positive consequences, right? Would $50/hour be enough? May be not. Why not $5,000/hour?

 

[jimtron]

Ambition? Yes. Or simply plan for the future, even a little. Control your spending, set goals and pursue them. It's not like anyone is going to do that for you.

True, this is important for everyone, no matter how much money you make. There are at least two issues here--saving/planning, and income inequality. I'm sure we're all in agreement that it's important to save and plan ahead.

It depends on what you mean by "high paying".
Plumbers work around "poop" all day long. They generally get paid well.
And some doctors don't earn squat.

I'm glad to hear that plumbers get paid well; I imagine they deserve it. Could you provide an example of doctors that don't earn squat? Which ones, and how much do they make?

As an aside, I might dispute that countries aren't rich; people are but ...

Yes, people. Many millionaires and and more than a few billionaires.

generally, rewards are commensurate with productivity.

How do you define "rewards" and "productivity"? There are people working very hard in low paying jobs producing lots of stuff. Good school teachers are very productive and are doing one of the most important jobs of anyone. Why do they get paid 1/3000 of what Tiger Woods gets paid? Is he 3,000 times more productive than teachers? Howard Stern makes roughly 1,000 times more than a cop or soldier or teacher, which makes perfect economic sense, but not ethical sense IMHO.

Soldiers? Who get free room and board? Or the married ones who decided to have six kids?

All of them. They're putting their lives and health at risk. Does anyone have a source for what American soldiers get paid? This seems hard to believe, but according to Alternet grunts get $7.50 a day. Why do game show hosts and Paris Hilton and pro athletes make thousands of times more than soldiers? Again, I understand the economic sense of it, but ethically it stinks.

School teachers are unionized, so while proficiency and productivity are not rewarded, they get paid all too well.

I disagree. Especially good teachers in bad public schools. We need to encourage really bright, talented people to teach our kids--so far we're not doing such a great job. I think teaching is one of the most important jobs of all and they should be rewarded for it. I don't think Paris Hilton or Donald Trump are 500 or 1,000 times more valuable to society than teachers or soldiers.

And cashiers? In a land of universally bar-coded merchandise, cash registers with pictures of food items, and a trend towards automated checkouts?

Why should people in a rich country, who work full time, live below the poverty line without adequate health care? I'm not against people getting rich, but can't we make sure that everyone who is working full time gets paid a living wage with health care, and then let people get rich? Last time I checked, the income gap was growing. How much is too much of a gap?

 

[JoeEllison]

You are ignoring the other half of your proposal. You said we should have raised the minimum wage much, much higher. Ok, how high? If that's all it takes to eliminate poverty, let's do it. There are nothing but positive consequences, right? Would $50/hour be enough? May be not. Why not $5,000/hour?

Why not try to be mature about it, instead of lashing out at the idea of fair wages? Here's an idea: figure out what a living wage is, and make sure that everyone working a 40 hour week gets that. Why is that not an automatic in one of the world's richest countries?

 

[balrog666]

So, you're saying that no one needs to cook your food or pick your crops, it will just happen on its own? Buildings will clean themselves, hotels will have magical self-cleaning rooms, and your trash will carry itself to the dump?

Yes, in time.

We already have industrialized fruit and vegetable picking with modified genetics for plants to ripen consistently and bear up to the extra beating they take. Fruits and vegetables are increasingly being cleaned, scanned, sorted, and packed by automated machinery.

We have commercial MRE's that "cook themselves" and get increasingly cheaper and better.

We have a dozen competing models of robotic vacuum cleaners, floor scrubbers, and dish washers. Looks like a big market there too.

Trash pickup increasingly uses automated trucks and standardized containers to drastically increase productivity in the waste management world.

All those little niches of crappy jobs are increasingly disappearing as the cost to have people do those chores spirals out of control due to inflation, regulation, taxes, and, oh, let's not forget mandating lifetime full medical care coverage too.

Welcome to the future you've been overlooking for a long time.

 

[JoeEllison]

Yes, in time.

We already have industrialized fruit and vegetable picking with modified genetics for plants to ripen consistently and bear up to the extra beating they take. Fruits and vegetables are increasingly being cleaned, scanned, sorted, and packed by automated machinery.

We have commercial MRE's that "cook themselves" and get increasingly cheaper and better.

We have a dozen competing models of robotic vacuum cleaners, floor scrubbers, and dish washers. Looks like a big market there too.

Trash pickup increasingly uses automated trucks and standardized containers to drastically increase productivity in the waste management world.

All those little niches of crappy jobs are increasingly disappearing as the cost to have people do those chores spirals out of control due to inflation, regulation, taxes, and, oh, let's not forget mandating lifetime full medical care coverage too.

Welcome to the future you've been overlooking for a long time.

Are you claiming that all the low-paying jobs are being replaced one-for-one with higher paying jobs? Are you saying that there is a higher paying job for every or even most people who are currently working lower paying jobs? Can EVERYONE make more money at a better job, or are there a limited number of slots, no matter how many people go to college and get better training for better jobs?

Or are you ignoring reality in favor of an antisocial "screw you, I got mine" attitude?

 

[jimtron]

Pay info from Goarmy.com.

 

[balrog666]

True, this is important for everyone, no matter how much money you make. There are at least two issues here--saving/planning, and income inequality. I'm sure we're all in agreement that it's important to save and plan ahead.

No, we aren't. You and I might agree but 90% of the people out there live and die without any such thought process.

As for income inequality, the market decides who gets rewarded, not me.
And I don't have a problem with that.

I'm glad to hear that plumbers get paid well; I imagine they deserve it. Could you provide an example of doctors that don't earn squat? Which ones, and how much do they make?

The bad ones. Sometimes they earn as little as 13 cents/hour (in a prison).

How do you define "rewards" and "productivity"? There are people working very hard in low paying jobs producing lots of stuff. Good school teachers are very productive and are doing one of the most important jobs of anyone. Why do they get paid 1/3000 of what Tiger Woods gets paid? Is he 3,000 times more productive than teachers? Howard Stern makes roughly 1,000 times more than a cop or soldier or teacher, which makes perfect economic sense, but not ethical sense IMHO.

Rewards = money.
Productivity = Production - Cost.
That's the way the market operates.

Why introduce ethics at all? The market knows no ethics only people do.

You want to pay unionized teachers more for poorer student performance? Go ahead - with your money. I will happily decline.

All of them. They're putting their lives and health at risk. Does anyone have a source for what American soldiers get paid? This seems hard to believe, but according to Alternet grunts get $7.50 a day. Why do game show hosts and Paris Hilton and pro athletes make thousands of times more than soldiers? Again, I understand the economic sense of it, but ethically it stinks.

Military pay scales are right here:
http://www.dfas.mil/militarypay/2006militarypaytables/2007MilitaryPayCharts-1.pdf

Of course, base pay does not include housing allowances, flight pay, combat pay, enlistment bonuses and a few other incentives to go with that free room and board, career training, medical care, and so forth.

As for game show hosts, they get every dollar that the market will bear. Just like the soldiers.

I disagree. Especially good teachers in bad public schools. We need to encourage really bright, talented people to teach our kids--so far we're not doing such a great job. I think teaching is one of the most important jobs of all and they should be rewarded for it. I don't think Paris Hilton or Donald Trump are 500 or 1,000 times more valuable to society than teachers or soldiers.

Talented people tend to do what is in their own best interest and gravitate towards where they are best rewarded.

Again, the market doesn't care what you think, only how you spend your dollars.

Why should people in a rich country, who work full time, live below the poverty line without adequate health care? I'm not against people getting rich, but can't we make sure that everyone who is working full time gets paid a living wage with health care, and then let people get rich? Last time I checked, the income gap was growing. How much is too much of a gap?

It's not your money, so it's not your decision.

How much is too much? You want to put everyone on a minimum dole?
Or prevent people from earning the just fruits of their own labor?

 

[jimtron]

Why introduce ethics at all? The market knows no ethics only people do.

Why don't we just pay people 10 cents a day like in third world countries? Why have regulations and laws? We are a society and nation of people. I realize that the market does not "know ethics," but the citizens and government should.

How much is too much? You want to put everyone on a minimum dole?
Or prevent people from earning the just fruits of their own labor?

No. How much do you think is too much of an income gap, or is there no such thing as too big a gap? Is it OK for CEOs to make 1,000 times more than their average worker? 10,000? A million? As long as the market is humming?

 

[balrog666]

Are you claiming that all the low-paying jobs are being replaced one-for-one with higher paying jobs? Are you saying that there is a higher paying job for every or even most people who are currently working lower paying jobs? Can EVERYONE make more money at a better job, or are there a limited number of slots, no matter how many people go to college and get better training for better jobs?

No, I didn't say that.
No, I didn't say that.
No, I didn't even say that.
And, no, I didn't say that either.
Perhaps you would like to question some more things I haven't said?

Or are you ignoring reality in favor of an antisocial "screw you, I got mine" attitude?

Let me repeat the lessons of capitalism ...

You want a good job? Learn a valuable skill.

You want some of my money? Don't beg for it, earn it.

 

[JoeEllison]

No, I didn't say that.
No, I didn't say that.
No, I didn't even say that.
And, no, I didn't say that either.
Perhaps you would like to question some more things I haven't said?




Let me repeat the lessons of capitalism ...

You want a good job? Learn a valuable skill.

You want some of my money? Don't beg for it, earn it.

Wait, which is it? You have to choose a position. Can everyone earn more money, or not? Not "can anyone", can EVERYONE? If they work hard enough?

 

[Lithrael]

I'm paycheck to paycheck at the moment cause I quit my awesome but dead end job to move to another state for a good job in the field I went to college for. And then the company went out of business. And of course I don't qualify for any kind of unemployment assistance in that situation. I just got a new job, and I'm sharing a car w/ my partner and basically doing a double commute till I can save up for a place closer to the new job, and another car, but it'll take a while to polish off the debt I got into from the move and sudden unemployment.

On top of all this I'm paying a mortgage that's killing me because I was sooooo responsible I was in a good situation to purchase a house four years ago... before the company I worked for THEN went out of business. And I can't sell it now cause the housing market in FL is such **** thanks to the insurance companies and the high forclosure rate.

And I don't have medical insurance so seeing a doctor for a checkup and a scrip for some Xanax to help with the panic attacks I started getting hurt my pocketbook too.

Now, I'm not about to die or anything, but this really sucks. If I'd stayed home in the dead-end job hauling beach umbrellas around for tourists I would be happy and getting by fine, I even was about to get medical there. I tried to improve my situation and got a big pile of rule8 in my lap.

 

[balrog666]

Why don't we just pay people 10 cents a day like in third world countries?

It's against the law.

Besides I can contract with a company in a third world country and let them pay their employees 10 cents a day. /facetious

Why have regulations and laws? We are a society and nation of people. I realize that the market does not "know ethics," but the citizens and government should.

I disagree with minimum wage laws from an economics standpoint.
And yes, people have ethics but I don't think that having government mandate "ethics" works.

No. How much do you think is too much of an income gap, or is there no such thing as too big a gap? Is it OK for CEOs to make 1,000 times more than their average worker? 10,000? A million? As long as the market is hummin

How high is too high? How deep is too deep?
I see it as a meaningless question.

 

[qayak]

Teach your kids that no matter what they were told, society does not want them to succeed. Society wants a bunch of minimum wage, worker drones who toil their whole lives and die as soon as they are no longer useful (the day they retire, for those who can't keep up).

If your kids want anything different, they are going to have to get off their ass and go get it themselves. No one is going to give it to them.