Fundamentalism and Children

mijopaalmc said:
Need I remind you that not all religions (nor all denominations within religions) believe these things?

What is it with the "religion is child abuse" crowd and gross generalizations?
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Of course, YOUR religion would never be so foolish as to believe this nonsense!! :rolleyes:

I'll tell you what. You pick the religion and I will tell you the lies they believe in.

And while your at it, can you start the list TSG suggested? Maybe just start with your own religion and let us know what it believes that is actually correct. It should be a very short list, then you can get onto the other religions.

Or, even more balanced, you pick the religion, give me one major tenet of theirs that is true and I will give yu a list of the lies they preach.
 
qayak said:
Of course, YOUR religion would never be so foolish as to believe this nonsense!! :rolleyes:
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This is news to me!!!! Atheism is a religion?

You really should pay attention to what people say about their personal beliefs. You would have learned that I am an atheist.
 
mijopaalmc said:
This is news to me!!!! Atheism is a religion?

You really should pay attention to what people say about their personal beliefs. You would have learned that I am an atheist.
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People tend to speak louder with their actions than words. It is easy to lie using words, a lot harder using actions.
 
qayak said:
1- That believers are good, non-believers are bad and there is a sky jockey who favours the good and punishes the bad.

2- That all types of suffering on this Earth are the result of a kind and loving god, who we can never hope to understand, and that those who believe will have an eternal life, in a fictitious place, grovelling at the feet of this god.

3- That the bible is anything more than the ignorant beliefs of desert dwelling goat herders.

4- That it is a virtue to blindly believe in these lies.

5- That religious beliefs are an acceptable substitute for real knowledge.

Is that enough or should we ask others to add to the list?
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I sat through three hours of services this morning and afternoon, and the only one of these five that was mentioned was number 3.

(Although, for those of you who read the "Atheist and the Marine" thread, the joke about the bear is funnier in Hebrew.)
 
I can understand why people want less religion in the world. It makes sense to me. However, I can't see why they think that government intervention to achieve this goal will work out so well.

There've been plenty of folks who decided that the world would be a better place if only there were fewer Jews in the world, and it never really seemed better afterwards.
 
Meadmaker said:
I sat through three hours of services this morning and afternoon, and the only one of these five that was mentioned was number 3.

(Although, for those of you who read the "Atheist and the Marine" thread, the joke about the bear is funnier in Hebrew.)
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:confused:

If they mentioned #3, they mentioned all the rest and many, many more. It's all in the bible whether they specifically say it in every BS session . . . Ooooops! I mean "sermon."
 
ponderingturtle said:
Prove it



Link

Sure now and then there have been cases and they have passed laws in some states makeing it a crime to let your child die like this, but that is not universal.
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Which is why you read about it all the time. A kid dies, and the parents say, "Sure, medicine could have saved her, but it was God's will that she die. What good would it be to let them live if it makes God angry?" You hear it again and again and again. Day after day. For example, there was that case.....uh....well, I don't remember exactly, but it happens all the time.
 
qayak said:
:confused:

If they mentioned #3, they mentioned all the rest and many, many more. It's all in the bible whether they specifically say it in every BS session . . . Ooooops! I mean "sermon."
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A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
 
mijopaalmc said:
I'm sorry. Have we met in person?

Defending religion doesn't make me a believer.
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What would it make you? Hmmmmmmmm. . . . you will tolerate the teaching of lies to children, the bigotry and hatred spread by religion, the misery religions have wrought and you argue with someone who thinks all these things are bad and should not be tolerated.

Believer or simple apologist?

What's worse, someone who bashes gays or someone who defends gay bashers?
 
qayak said:
What would it make you? Hmmmmmmmm. . . . you will tolerate the teaching of lies to children, the bigotry and hatred spread by religion, the misery religions have wrought and you argue with someone who thinks all these things are bad and should not be tolerated.

Believer or simple apologist?

What's worse, someone who bashes gays or someone who defends gay bashers?
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You seemed have missed the many times I have said that lying to children is wrong. However, it is not child abuse, and you are trying manipulate people's emotions by equating it thusly. Furthermore, you are deliberately lying about what I said. I never said I tolerated the things you said I tolerated. The sum total religion is not things that you listed. Thus defending religion is not necessarily defending those things.
 
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I've seen "Jesus Camp," and the new HBO documentary, "Friends of God" (can't help thinking the acronym of that one is sadly ironic). They deeply depress me, but I'm not in favor of a government crackdown on religion. Frankly, such a notion is not only unconstitutional, but completely impractical.

While I wish people weren't so irrational as to believe in sky daddies, ghost whisperers, astrologers, faith healers, creationism, and fortune cookies, I have to acknowledge that there is enough slack built into modern society that such beliefs don't generally diminish the quality of life for the believers. If it brings them a sense of community and a support system, that may more than compensate for the delusion that evolution is a lie. One's position on evolution is irrelevant for most paying occupations these days, like it or not. The fundies who home-school their children that evolution is a lie, but you need to be able to repeat some of those lies to have your education certified, have probably not done the children any irreparable harm.

I think that as long as we can keep "teach the controversy" out of the public schools, I'm willing to let the evangelicals with 12 kids teach them nonsense. It's not a perfect system, but I have more fear of a government that could eavesdrop on dinner conversations to the extent that it could enforce a "no religious instruction" law than I do of a few (or a few million) people who mock evolution.

Yes, it's true that the vast majority of them, upon reaching adulthood, are beyond the reach of reason where reason conflicts with faith. I think it's also true that a person can be irrational enough to reject evolution without seriously considering the evidence, and still be able to ring up my purchases at Wal-Mart, or even design a bridge that won't fall down.

Bottom line, I think the best course is to oppose them with facts and reason rather than legislation.
 
mijopaalmc said:
You seemed have missed the many times I have said that lying to children is wrong. However, it is not child abuse, and you are trying manipulate people's emotions by equating it thusly.
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And you seem to have missed the many times I have rejected that apologist position as being weak and cowardly.

Governments create laws making it illegal to misrepresent the truth all the time. Is it more abusive for a used car salesman to lie about the car you are interested in being in an accident, or a real estate broker, lying about the condition of the property they are selling, or someone falsely claiming to be a police officer than it is for children to be told the lies in the name of someone else's religion? At least a adults can (or should be able to) discern for themselves whether the car has in fact been in an accident, or the house is sound or the cop is a cop. However, children are given no chance. They are taught the lies as truth from the moment they are born.

Lying leads to abuse and nowhere is that more apparent than with religions and it is infinitely worse that they lie to children.

You think religions are special and deserve to be exempted from government oversight. Further, you think it is a position I should respect. Sorry, I don't.

I think it sacrifices children to avoid a confrontation that is long overdue.
 
bokonon said:
They deeply depress me, but I'm not in favor of a government crackdown on religion. Frankly, such a notion is not only unconstitutional, but completely impractical.
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Isn't it freakin' hilarious how many people will support an ammendment to the constitution when it bans gay marriage (which hurts no one by the way) but won';t support an amendment banning the systematic abuse of children at the hands of religions.

Oh . . . . sorry! It's the same people voting in both cases. They just love to push their lies down other people's throats, don't they?
 
Meadmaker said:
There've been plenty of folks who decided that the world would be a better place if only there were fewer Jews in the world, and it never really seemed better afterwards.
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True, but the aim was simply to make more room for a particular brand of woo
 
qayak said:
Isn't it freakin' hilarious how many people will support an ammendment to the constitution when it bans gay marriage (which hurts no one by the way) but won';t support an amendment banning the systematic abuse of children at the hands of religions.

Oh . . . . sorry! It's the same people voting in both cases. They just love to push their lies down other people's throats, don't they?
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If I'm a part of your "they," you're barking up the wrong tree. I don't have a problem with gay marriage, so I wouldn't support an amendment to the constitution banning it.

I also wouldn't support an amendment making it a crime for parents to read their children fairy tales at bedtime.
 
bokonon said:
I also wouldn't support an amendment making it a crime for parents to read their children fairy tales at bedtime.
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You don't have to. You just have to support people's right to freedom of religion. That right there is all that is necessary to stop parents from indoctrinating children with lies about sky daddies.
 
qayak said:
You don't have to. You just have to support people's right to freedom of religion. That right there is all that is necessary to stop parents from indoctrinating children with lies about sky daddies.
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Maybe on Bizarro world. Here in 'Merica, freedom of religion doesn't stop parents from passing on their religion any more than freedom of assembly means the kids are free to go to their friend's house to play video games over their parents' objections. The right to bear arms doesn't apply to children either, last time I checked.
 
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