Experts confirm meteorite crash in Peru

robinson

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I checked and couldn't find a thread on this.

LIMA, Peru - A fiery meteorite crashed into southern Peru over the weekend, experts confirmed on Wednesday. But they were still puzzling over claims that it gave off fumes that sickened 200 people.

Witnesses told reporters that a fiery ball fell from the sky and smashed into the desolate Andean plain near the Bolivian border Saturday morning.

Jose Mechare, a scientist with Peru's Geological, Mining and Metallurgical Institute, said a geologist had confirmed that it was a "rocky meteorite," based on the fragments analyzed.
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20875080/

"But they were still puzzling over claims that it gave off fumes that sickened 200 people" WTF?


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,297369,00.html
"Many of the reported features of the crater ("boiling water," sulphurous fumes, etc.) point to a geological mechanism of the crater formation," wrote Benny Peiser,

"I would not be surprised if, after careful analysis," he added, "the alleged meteorite impact reveals itself to be just another 'meteorwrong.'"

It's not impossible that the crater was left by a meteorite, Yeomans said, but if so, then the impact object most likely was small, based on the size of the crater.

It would also probably have been a metal meteorite, because those are the only kind of small meteorites that don't burn up as they plummet through Earth's atmosphere, he added. Small stony meteorites rarely make it to the surface.
.....

Pictures of the crater show that the hole in the ground appears fresh, Grossman said, and the debris strewn around it is consistent with a meteorite impact but also could have been caused by digging.

And there are no previous reports of noxious fumes emanating from meteorite remnants or their craters, he said.

"If the noxious fumes came from the hole, it wasn't because the meteorite fell there," Grossman said, saying they would like have come from something already in the ground.

Grossman said that to determine whether the crater was made by a meteorite, the water in the hole must be pumped out and any large chunks of rock at the bottom should be examined to see if they are consistent with meteoritic composition.
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Gee, it seems the experts are terrible at actually knowing what is going on. These are the kinds of comments by "experts" that make me skeptical of experts being any better at determining what is real, than anybody else. None of these numbnuts have ever actually been at an impact site, but they think they know something about it.

First it wasn't a meteorite, then it couldn't be a rocky meteorite, (because it has to be a metal meteorite), which meant it had to be cold, then it couldn't make water boil, but now it is a rocky meteorite, in fact, a fireball impact, which, like was what was reported, then it hit the ground, making a huge ass crater, but now, after everything the locals reported turns out to be true, the "experts", who have never actually witnessed a meteorite impact, still question the testimony of simple people. People that don't know anything, except what actually happened. :D

Every guess/claim the experts have made so far has been 100% wrong, but we are expected to still believe them? Some theoretical Professor thousands of miles away says something, and it makes the news. That it was wrong, obviously wrong, doesn't seem to bother anybody.

Has there ever been a case where 200 people instantly develop the same psychosomatic symptoms from fear? No? Then why would anyone believe such an absurd claim? Why would anybody be so dumb as to even say something like that?

Are the symptoms reported the kind that fear is know to cause? No? Then why make some stupid claim about them? Why is that?

He said fear may have provoked psychosomatic ailments.
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How unscientific. Is there any evidence that fear leads to these symptoms? It was people who went and looked at the crater that got sick, not the hundreds that ran away, and were too scared to go near it.
Are you a Doctor? Did you examine anybody? Do any test? Do you have any evidence to make such a statement? No? Then shut the hell up. This bad science is too much to bear. Every expert has been wrong so far.

"When a meteorite falls, it produces horrid sounds when it makes contact with the atmosphere," he told the paper. "It is as if a giant rock is being sanded. Those sounds could have frightened them."
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Yeah, and maybe the fact that a giant fireball flew over head, crashed into the ground, made a huge crater, and showered the village with debris. That could be scary too.

Justina Limache, 74, told El Comercio that when she heard the thunderous roar from the sky, she abandoned her flock of alpacas and ran to her small home with her 8-year-old granddaughter. She said that after the meteorite struck, small rocks rained down on the roof of her house for several minutes and she feared the house was going to collapse.
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No kidding? Did people get sick then? Or was it only after they got near the steaming pit of water and mud?

Meteor expert Ursula Marvin said that if people were sickened, "it wouldn't be the meteorite itself, but the dust it raises."
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Uh, yeah, right. How many large meteorite impacts have you observed? Oh right, none. How many fireball rocky meteorite impacts have you studied in that area? Oh, none? Really. How do you know what a rocky fireball does on impact? Oh, you just make stuff up? That isn't very scientific. Oh, it never happened before? How do you know this?

Oh, you don't, you just THINK this is the case, because you never saw it happen before. Why don't you say that instead? Wouldn't it be more scientific to state the truth? "We don't know that a meteorite can make anybody sick". Isn't that the truth? "We don't know what happened." How about that? Then investigate to find out what happened. Isn't that how science is supposed to be done?

A meteorite "wouldn't get much gas out of the Earth," said Marvin, who has studied the objects since 1961 at the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory in Cambridge, Mass. "It's a very superficial thing.
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Really? Have you ever been there when a meteorite hits?
No?
How do you know what happens when a fireball hits? In that type of earth?
You don't know?
Then why are you saying dumb stuff? Making up statements that have no science to back them up?

Why is that? Why do "experts" get a free pass when it comes to healthy skepticism?

Or is this the Media dumbing down the story? An event like this, you might think it would be a story. Because it is the first one anybody has ever reported.

Why is this considered just a bunch of dumb peasants misunderstanding what happened?

Oops.

Locals that fell ill said that they began ailing after handling a luminous substance at the site that they thought might be valuable.

"Blood tests are being carried out on most of the patients to determine what they're suffering from," the ministry said. "Specialists in epidemiology and environmental health are already in the area to collect samples of the supposed meteorite for analysis.''

Jorge Lopez, director of the region Health Ministry, said none of the inhabitants affected
by the toxins were critical condition, but they would have to undergo blood and neurological tests as a preventative measure in three to six months.

Police have sealed the zone of the impact, but Mr Lopez had nose and throat irritations after he approached the area despite wearing a mask.
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http://www.efluxmedia.com/news_Meteor_Crash_Leaves_Hundreds_of_Peruvians_Ailing_08788.html

Oh, it looks like it isn't dust causing the problems. Something in the air.

"We have determined with precision instruments that there is no radiation," engineer Renan Ramirez of the Peruvian Nuclear Energy Institute told AFP.

Ramirez said the illnesses may have been triggered by sulfur, arsenic or other toxins that may have melted in the extreme heat produced by the meteorite strike.

"It is a conventional meteorite that, when it struck, produced gases by fusing with elements of the terrain," he said. He also ruled out that the object was a satellite.
...
Police have cordoned off the crater. Lopez said that despite wearing a mask while he approached the crater, the fumes irritated his nose and throat.
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http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/a-case-for-mulder-and-scully/2007/09/18/1189881490291.html

I don't know who to believe at this point. If it was heat generated fumes from the earth, then why is it still causing problems?

Was it only the people who went to look at the crater, or handled material that became ill? Or did people who were showered with material also become ill?

Hmm...

López Tejada, who is currently in Carancas, has confirmed that there are very strong odors coming from the supposed meteorite crash site. He has stated that despite the fact that masks are being worn, the odor causes throat irritation and nose itchiness.

Andina News Agency reported that the seven police officers which were hospitalized after collecting samples from the thought-to-be meteorite site, are recovering now that they have been seen by doctors.
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http://www.livinginperu.com/news-47...ctor-reports-health-near-meteorite-crash-site

So there is some foul stench making people sick. Not a dust, but a gas. Still, after all this time.

Interesting. Organic molecules are known to exist on objects from outer space. The locals are likely to be familiar with the smell of sulfur, or any other local stench. Has anybody sampled the air? Sent some to be analyzed? Basic science.

Or maybe the police are just scared and that is why they got sick? :D

The more I read about this, the more it seems like the start of another conspiracy theory. Why?

Because of the dumb ass lack of science being done. By now you might think some real science types would have samples, and with people suffering health problems, it might be worth determining what is going on.

Besides all that, there might just be some really cool outer space stuff in that crater, or spread out all over the place around it.

But what about this shiny stuff the locals picked up? Nothing about that at all.

Anybody missing a satellite? :) Most satellites don't have anything radioactive on them. But the do have shiny stuff, and a buttload of toxic chemicals in the thrusters.

Hmm..

Something stinks about this story, and it ain't just the crater.

How about "He also ruled out that the object was a satellite." How do you do that? Have they drained the crater and found the object? How does one even go about doing this? Determing that it isn't something?

How do you deal with a satellite crashing anyway? (Not that this is the case, but what if it was?). Who do you call? What are the dangers? Would it be a fireball? How hot would it be?

So back to Peru. Something came crashing out of the sky, burning. It made a crater, showered a nearby village with material from the crater. It made a big noise. People got sick, we are not sure why. It stinks, but there is no radioactivity. It isn't metal but rock. There may be shiny material. It is either a cool new science study, or nothing to get excited about.

Experts have been wrong about almost everything involved so far.
I want to hear from the regular scientist about this.

What really happened? What is it?

Not that I think you know, but you have to ask some kind of questions. Stuff falls from sky, makes people sick, how cool is that?
 
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Check out the Bad Astronomy website (Link at the end of today's commentary).
Phil has an interesting hypothesis - an errant Scud missile.
 
Nice post, Robinson,

How typical that no one believed the Peruvian villagers, it's so predictable. And the usual attempts by experts to preserve their prestige by pretending they have a clue what happened.
 
Scientist Confirms Meteorite in Puno, Peru is a Chondrite

(LIP-ir) -- Peru's official government news agency reported this afternoon that scientists which went to the town of Carancas in the Region of Puno, Peru, have confirmed that the glowing object which fell from the sky on Saturday afternoon was indeed a meteorite.

Volcanologist for Peru's Geological, Mining and Metallurgical Institute (INGEMMET), Luisa Macedo, confirmed that a chondrite meteorite had caused the 17 meter (55 foot) wide and 5 meter (16 foot) deep crater when it landed on earth.
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http://www.livinginperu.com/news-47...onfirms-meteorite-in-puno-peru-is-a-chondrite
How does he know it is a Chondrite? Interesting.

This would be a huge story if it happened in the US. Still pretty damn interesting. I wonder if the animals that got sick are suffering from a psychosomatic illness as well?

Chondrite meteorites are usually rich in Iridium, Iridium is a very hard shiny metal. I'm going out on a limb now, pure speculation, but it could explain both the shiny substance, and the illness. According to Wiki -
Iridium is mostly non-toxic due to its relative unreactivity, but iridium compounds should be considered highly toxic.
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Really? Now that is interesting. I did not know that.

If it turns out to be an Iridium rich meteorite, and either contained Iridium compounds, or formed some on impact, it gets really cool. Iridium is also rare, and very valuable.

Back to the News -
Dr. Curlin states that it is not out of the ordinary for meteorites to cause nausea or headaches like those that are being reported in the region.

"Think about what it would smell like if you had a combination of chemicals that were stuck away in a vault for millions of years," said Dr. Curlin. "I think that it is humorous that there are news organizations that are reporting that this happening is something out of the ordinary. I am waiting for Fox, or some other news channel, to start wondering if this story should be linked to a George Romero movie and state that zombies may soon walk the Earth."

Dr. Curlin points out that the same illnesses that the people are feeling would be the same if someone released a large stink bomb in the area. Multiple people would report nausea, headaches, and vomiting. There would also be people that would have to be taken to the hospital for breathing issues if they had sensitivities to certain smells or conditions like asthma.

Dr. Curlin points out that the meteorite that struck Peru is of immediate concern to the scientific community because of the fact that there were people on the scene so early after the crash. He explained that it is very rare that someone is present at the crash site so soon after it happens. This type of first-hand accounting is very rare.

He is also quick to point out the fact that there is really nothing to worry about in the area. The symptoms will most likely pass very soon, and the area will go back to normal. The Doctor hopes that news organizations will spend more time supporting the scientists as they recover this meteorite, and less time wondering what type of plague was unleashed on the general population of Peru.
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http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/387897/mysterious_meteorite_illness_overexaggerated.html
 
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Gord_in_Toronto said:
You didn't check very hard. Searching with the words "meteorite" and "peru" shows two other threads on the same topic.
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I just did another search, still no other threads found. Using "meteorite" and "peru" shows only this thread, just "meteorite" shows this thread, but no others about meteorite AND Peru. What are you using to search for threads?

More importantly, tell us how to find the other threads.

Or even better, link to them. I still can't find them.
 
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Never mind, I found them. The term meteorite is missing from the tag in one, (here, in Math and Science), and the other doesn't mention either meteorite or Peru in the topic title, (In social issues).
 
robinson said:
Never mind, I found them. The term meteorite is missing from the tag in one, (here, in Math and Science), and the other doesn't mention either meteorite or Peru in the topic title, (In social issues).
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Tags? We don't need no stinking tags! :D

I guess you eventually did what I did first; search for the words in all posts. :D
 
No, I searched for Peru, then one of them shows up, but the other one, The Martians are coming! isn't obvious that it is about a meteorite. I read the other threads, both of which seem to focus on the illness, and how it is either Martians, or psychosomatic illness or something.

A lot of humorous comments about the obvious, but it makes me wonder of H.G. Wells didn't hear or read about a meteor impact, and get the idea for War pf the Worlds. I mean, how weird can you get? A giant flaming object falls from the sky, making a huge crater. People who approach the crater get sick. Something is down in the crater, either hot or causing groundwater to boil.

Scary movie, especially if you never saw the movie. As far as I can determine, which isn't saying that much, this is the first time this has happened in quite a while. How big would it have to be to make such a crater?

I would quote an expert (31 inches), but that same expert said it couldn't be hot, so I'm not sure if that is accurate.

But wait, there's more:
Meteor Crash in Peru Caused Mysterious Illness
José Orozco in Caracas, Venezuela
for National Geographic News
September 21, 2007

An object that struck the high plains of Peru on Saturday, causing a mysterious illness among local residents, was a rare kind of meteorite, scientists announced today.

A team of Peruvian researchers confirmed the origins of the object, which crashed near Lake Titicaca, after taking samples to a lab in the capital city of Lima.

Nearby residents who visited the impact crater complained of headaches and nausea, spurring speculation that the explosion was a subterranean geyser eruption or a release of noxious gas from decayed matter underground.

But the illness was the result of inhaling arsenic fumes, according to Luisa Macedo, a researcher for Peru's Mining, Metallurgy, and Geology Institute (INGEMMET), who visited the crash site.

The meteorite created the gases when the object's hot surface met an underground water supply tainted with arsenic, the scientists said.

Numerous arsenic deposits have been found in the subsoils of southern Peru, explained Modesto Montoya, a nuclear physicist who collaborated with the team. The naturally formed deposits contaminate local drinking water.
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http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/09/070921-meteor-peru.html

I checked, arsenic dust/fumes don't produce the symptoms reported. Nor the smell.

A mystery. How cool is that?

There doesn't seem to be any doubt it is a meteor, and a rare one at that.
 
plumjam said:
Nice post, Robinson,

How typical that no one believed the Peruvian villagers, it's so predictable.
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Could you please point out where in the quoted material it is indicated that no one belived the villagers?

The following statements would seem to indicate that the reports were not dismissed out of hand.

It's not impossible that the crater was left by a meteorite, Yeomans said, but if so, then the impact object most likely was small, based on the size of the crater.

It would also probably have been a metal meteorite, because those are the only kind of small meteorites that don't burn up as they plummet through Earth's atmosphere, he added. Small stony meteorites rarely make it to the surface.
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"If the noxious fumes came from the hole, it wasn't because the meteorite fell there," Grossman said, saying they would likely have come from something already in the ground.
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Meteor expert Ursula Marvin said that if people were sickened, "it wouldn't be the meteorite itself, but the dust it raises."
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"We have determined with precision instruments that there is no radiation," engineer Renan Ramirez of the Peruvian Nuclear Energy Institute told AFP.

Ramirez said the illnesses may have been triggered by sulfur, arsenic or other toxins that may have melted in the extreme heat produced by the meteorite strike.

"It is a conventional meteorite that, when it struck, produced gases by fusing with elements of the terrain," he said. He also ruled out that the object was a satellite.
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plumjam said:
And the usual attempts by experts to preserve their prestige by pretending they have a clue what happened.
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This is where you betray your ignorance of the scientific method. They are indeed possessed of clues to what happened. What they do not as of yet posses is the information from a thorough examination of the crater site. So far, I have read only speculation about what is likely and unlikely to have occurred based on their initial observations. No one has as yet presented a detailed theory regarding the event. At this point everyone is still standing around discussing the event and speculating about what may have happened and offering opinions. Perhaps we should wait until all the evidence has been collected and examined and a theory presented before we gloat about how stupid scientists are.
 
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Reason has returned to the world

With the danger seemingly past, some here are thinking big: Why not make the whole deal a tourist site, a small museum and side trip for the many visitors headed to Lake Titicaca and Bolivia?

"Now that various experts from Japan and other countries have assured us there is nothing bad, we have decided this belongs to us," said Benito Mosaja Pari, 56, who called himself the village lieutenant governor.

"We're going to dig it out. The scientists tell us this was part of a world that fell apart. It has some value.

"And now it's ours."
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http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-fg-meteor21sep21,1,7118218.story?track=rss&ctrack=1&cset=true

It sounds like reality is setting in.
 
robinson said:
I checked, arsenic dust/fumes don't produce the symptoms reported. Nor the smell.

A mystery. How cool is that?

There doesn't seem to be any doubt it is a meteor, and a rare one at that.
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It sounds as though it could be similar to CO2 poisoning. But I don't know anything about the geology of the area. It is possible for large quantities of gas to be trapped in the Earth and suddenly released. In 1986 Lake Nyos in Cameroon released about 1 cubic Km of CO2 killing at least 1700 people. I'm not suggesting that this is directly related, the gas in Lake Nyos was trapped at the bottom of the lake and pressurized by the overlying layers so that the disturbance caused by a landslide suddenly released it. But it is possible that elements within the earth at the crater site could have been released by the energy of the impact. We'll have to keep an eye on this as more evidence is gathered, it is indeed interesting.
 
plumjam said:
Nice post, Robinson,

How typical that no one believed the Peruvian villagers, it's so predictable. And the usual attempts by experts to preserve their prestige by pretending they have a clue what happened.
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I agree. I don't know why people even bother spending years and years learning about a specific topic. Research and science is for dopes.
 
After a little researching on the composition of Chondrite meteorites, it seems that based on the known composition of other Chondrite meteorites, there could be chemical reactions with water that could form highly toxic and irritating chemicals, including boiling, not from heat, but from chemical reactions with water, especially dirty water that already has organic molecules in it.

An extensive paper on these kinds of meteorites
http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/pls/portallive/docs/1/48477.PDF

The most obvious compounds are Carboxylic acid, Hydrogen chloride and Sulfuric acid. (pure speculation). The small amount of heat from the passage through the atmosphere may not be the cause of the boiling. (more speculation)

Because no other meteorite of this kind has ever actually been observed right after hitting the earth, and then sitting in dirty water, this is quite likely one of the most important events on the science of meteorites. It seems that almost every other meteorite studied had already interacted with the earths moisture, leading to all kinds of speculations about contamination, and what came from space, and what was from the earth.

Based on past examination of meteorites, we know they are chock full of all kinds of organic compounds, amino acids, purines and pyrimidines, all kinds of cool stuff. A lot of scientist think organic molecules from meteorites and comets led to life on earth.

All kinds of papers available here, just do a search from this article
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2000neas.work...17G

The amount and kind of stuff in these meteorites varies a good bit, so there is no way to know what this one was made of, yet. The interaction with water has no doubt altered the composition as well. Hopefully there will be a big chunk somewhere so it can be examined in detail, with out contamination.

The more I study known meteorites of this kind, the more it looks like the experts are dead wrong about what could happen. Of course this is understandable, because they assumed it had to be a metal meteorite, because Chondrites that size couldn't make it to earth and make a crater like the one reported.

So they don't have a clue as to what can happen from a meteorite hitting muddy earth, or groundwater. Like I suspected, some of these experts were talking out their ass. Nobody knows if a meteorite impact can make you sick. Well, up until now that is.

I know it seems harsh, but why not test the earth, air, water and people affected, instead of saying it couldn't happen? Science isn't served by assumption, guesses and conjecture. You have to actually observe and test and study stuff.
 
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robinson said:
I know it seems harsh, but why not test the earth, air, water and people affected, instead of saying it couldn't happen? Science isn't served by assumption, guesses and conjecture. You have to actually observe and test and study stuff.
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The quotes you provided suggest that they are testing or intend to test the earth, air and water as any good scientists would. The statements of initial skepticism are perfectly normal but I cannot find a single statement in the quotes you provided indicating that any scientist has flat out dismissed anything as impossible. And science is often served by assumptions, guesses and conjecture as long as they are then subjected to rigorous examination and testing to determine their validity.
 
Don't you know what the word "Expert" means?

"Ex" is a has-been

"Spurt" is a drip under pressure.

Put 'em together people! ;) :D
 
And with that, lets look at spaceweather's claim from Sep 17, 2007

PERUVIAN METEORITE: There is much discussion on the Internet today concerning a reported meteorite impact in Peru which may have gouged a 10- to 30-meter wide crater. Bad-smelling fumes from the crater are said to have sickened dozens and perhaps hundreds of people in a nearby village. Could this be true? (continued below)

There is indeed a hole in the ground in Peru, pictured above, and by all accounts it smells bad, but it is not likely of cosmic origin. In order to blast a 30-meter crater, a meteorite would have to hit the ground with about as much energy as 1 kiloton of TNT--akin to a tactical nuclear weapon. This would leave a clear signal in worldwide seismic and infrasound records, but so far no such signals are being reported by authorities.

In short, we remain unconvinced. Stay tuned for updates.
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"In order to blast a 30-meter crater, a meteorite would have to hit the ground with about as much energy as 1 kiloton of TNT--akin to a tactical nuclear weapon."

Where do people get this stuff from? Does anybody else find that claim impossible? Either tactical nukes are pretty lame, (there were villagers 800 feet away, nobody was injured), or somebody is making up facts.

It makes me question the other claim. I'm pretty sure you can blast a hole that big without a nuke.

I did read that the seismic shock showed up on records. I haven't seen the records, but it was stated.

Iron-rich magnetic fragments have been recovered from the curiously-wet crater and impact signals have been found in South American seismic records.
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http://www.spaceweather.com/archive.php?month=09&day=21&year=2007&view=view

I found a few other mentions of fireballs last week, but no videos or photos.

But what is really cool, is the video of a huge daytime fireball in Peru.
 
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