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homeopathy, how does one make a correct dilution

hmmm...

Thinker
H
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If homeopathic remedies are such incredibly dilute solutions ie 1 part active ingredient to 1 x 10^30 or 1 x 10^1000 parts water, can someone explain the manufacturing process?

I've been wondering for a while and it occurred to me that it must take some pretty swanky lab equipment to get to the right dilution - but then I realised I didn't know anything about lab equipment...

Has anyone actually witnessed the manufacturing process? (other than just filling up with tap water that is..)
 
hmmm... said:
If homeopathic remedies are such incredibly dilute solutions ie 1 part active ingredient to 1 x 10^30 or 1 x 10^1000 parts water, can someone explain the manufacturing process?

I've been wondering for a while and it occurred to me that it must take some pretty swanky lab equipment to get to the right dilution - but then I realised I didn't know anything about lab equipment...

Has anyone actually witnessed the manufacturing process? (other than just filling up with tap water that is..)
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You could get close enough for any reasonable person with a volumetric flask but that might be regarded as overkill.

A 1 too 100 dilution is fairly trivial (something analytical chemists and the like do all the time). You just have to do it say 30 times in a row.
 
geni said:
You could get close enough for any reasonable person with a volumetric flask but that might be regarded as overkill.

A 1 too 100 dilution is fairly trivial (something analytical chemists and the like do all the time). You just have to do it say 30 times in a row.
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:confused:

Fine when you have lots of molecules swishing around, but what about when you have 1 or 2 left? How does "dilution" have any meaning?
 
geni said:
A 1 too 100 dilution is fairly trivial (something analytical chemists and the like do all the time). You just have to do it say 30 times in a row.
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But I would assume that a 1:100 dilution only has a certain accuracy - and the mistake would get carried on time and time again.

Also, of course, your base substances only have a certain degree of purity - whilst I haven't done the math, I'd think it will factor in the final result as well. (Then again, if you start with "Berlin Wall" as your base substance, I guess math no longer needs to bother with the whole thing ..)
 
Rasmus said:
But I would assume that a 1:100 dilution only has a certain accuracy - and the mistake would get carried on time and time again.
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But since there aren't any molecules left (apart from the water, obviously), the error is zero. In any case, I don't think they ever actually claim a certain level of dillution. Instead, they go on about 30C, 10X and whatever, which simply means they have performed the action a certain number of times, it says nothing about the actual level of dillution reached.
 
hmmm... said:
If homeopathic remedies are such incredibly dilute solutions ie 1 part active ingredient to 1 x 10^30 or 1 x 10^1000 parts water, can someone explain the manufacturing process?

I've been wondering for a while and it occurred to me that it must take some pretty swanky lab equipment to get to the right dilution - but then I realised I didn't know anything about lab equipment...
Click to expand...


There seem to be two methods in general use: the Hahnemann method and the Korsakov method. The Korsakov method seems to be used for higher potencies (i.e. those with more dilutions).

See here for a description of what each method involves. Note that that page describes a "C" potency, with each step diluted 1 in 100. For an "X" potency it would be diluted 1 in 10 each time.

See also here for a brief description of a potentising machine (under the heading "High Potencies"), and an indication of the sort of potencies that they would use each method for.
 
Mojo said:
There seem to be two methods in general use: the Hahnemann method and the Korsakov method. The Korsakov method seems to be used for higher potencies (i.e. those with more dilutions).

See here for a description of what each method involves. Note that that page describes a "C" potency, with each step diluted 1 in 100. For an "X" potency it would be diluted 1 in 10 each time.

See also here for a brief description of a potentising machine (under the heading "High Potencies"), and an indication of the sort of potencies that they would use each method for.
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That made me laugh! Korsakov method = cleaning container. I did that with my coffee mug this morning.
 
Don't forget that you can also add your own bells and whistles to the process - I see that this one even got a patent.

US Patent 5603915

We claim..

..A method for preparing a homeopathic carrier solution for increasing the efficacy of a homeopathic medicine comprising the carrier solution, the method comprising the steps of sequentially subjecting the homeopathic carrier solution to an alternating current electrical treatment and a direct current electrical treatment, the alternating current electrical treatment comprising the steps of subjecting the homeopathic carrier solution to an alternating current in the range of 1 milliamp to 100 milliamps at a potential in the range of 5 volts to 30 volts and at a frequency in the range of 1 KHz to 1,000 KHz for a duration in the range of 20 seconds to 60 seconds, the direct current electrical treatment comprising the steps of subjecting the homeopathic carrier solution to a direct current in the range of 1 milliamp to 50 milliamps at a potential of 500 volts to 10,000 volts for a duration not exceeding 5 minutes.
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:confused:
 
Rasmus said:
But I would assume that a 1:100 dilution only has a certain accuracy - and the mistake would get carried on time and time again.
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Not really. Assume 100 ml flask. A grade glassware so error is less than .1ml. You would still expect to be within 97% of the correct value after 30 dilutions.

Also, of course, your base substances only have a certain degree of purity - whilst I haven't done the math, I'd think it will factor in the final result as well. (Then again, if you start with "Berlin Wall" as your base substance, I guess math no longer needs to bother with the whole thing ..)
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Homeopaths would claim to get around this by claiming to use the same initial sample in treatment as they do in the proveings.
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
That made me laugh! Korsakov method = cleaning container. I did that with my coffee mug this morning.
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Yeah now try doing that 30 times. I tend to feel that makeing up a remedy counts as a fairly solid debunking of homeopathy in most people's minds.
 
geni said:
Homeopaths would claim to get around this by claiming to use the same initial sample in treatment as they do in the proveings.
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So do they have to carry out a fresh proving each time they use a fresh mother tincture?
 
Here's a description: http://www.hahnemannlabs.com/preparation.html. Apparently succussion is the most important part. It's so important that you're not allowed to do it alone:

WE TAKE THIS PROCESS VERY SERIOUSLY. THIS IS THE CORE FUNCTION AT OUR LABORATORY. It is so important that these steps be done correctly that we do not allow one person to perform them acting alone. We require that a trained person act as a witness to the entire procedure to guarantee you that each critical step was performed correctly.
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They don't say what differences there might be between "correct" and "incorrect" succussion.

They have also built a succussing machine which they call the "Quinn Potentizer":

The design of the Quinn Potentizers was guided by a simple principle, that the machine actions should duplicate as closely as possible the actions of a vigorous person preparing a homeopathic medicine by hand. To this end the engineers who built the equipment actually measured Michael Quinn's arm from elbow to closed hand in order to build a mechanical arm of the same length.
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I think they ought to have measured Hahnemann's arm. I suppose it was hard to get hold of it.

They don't say anything about where they get the water or alcohol used for the dilutions. I always wonder what sort of "memories" these liquids have at the start, and how the laboratory erases these memories...
 
Mojo said:
So do they have to carry out a fresh proving each time they use a fresh mother tincture?
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I don't think they do, but they seldom use a fresh MT. What most pharmacies seem to do is that they keep a big jar of a low potency, then take a drop from that and work on. When the jar is about empty, they dilute it, succuss it, and presto! They have a new jar of a slightly higher potency (nice way of doing business).

I know that certain rare remedies exist only in fairly high potencies, because they have been stepped up for ages.

There is one thing wrong with all this, however: It is no use to look for rationality in homeopathy, 'cause there is none.

Hans
 
What I've always wondered is how they keep the water from being contaminated by other things. For example they say you shed 30,000-40,000 skin cells a minute. Wouldn't some of those get into the solution you are making?

http://yucky.discovery.com/flash/body/pg000146.html

I've always used this as a joke for my vegan friends. I let them know it is impossible for them to be vegan. As they prepare their carrots cucumbers and lettuce, they are constantly topping their salad with some nice human flesh. They can't be vegan, they're cannibals!
 
Michael C said:
Here's a description: http://www.hahnemannlabs.com/preparation.html. Apparently succussion is the most important part.
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The first time someone told me about succussion and its importance, I didn't believe it.

One form of succussion is to shake the vial up and down ten times, left and right ten times, and back and forth ten times.

Succussion rules allow homepaths to discount claims that all tap water would have memories of hundreds of substances.
 
Ladewig said:
The first time someone told me about succussion and its importance, I didn't believe it.

One form of succussion is to shake the vial up and down ten times, left and right ten times, and back and forth ten times.

Succussion rules allow homepaths to discount claims that all tap water would have memories of hundreds of substances.
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And of course, none of the ways it is done are actually correct since they're supposed to tap it three (I think) times on a leather-bound bible. It's kind of sad that even the homeopaths don't seem to know anything about homeopathy.
 
You could actually make such "dilutions" pretty accurately - with modern automatic pipettes, the error isn't great at all. However, it's not important to the homoeopaths, as it's not the dilution they're interested - it's a magic ritual, not a scientific procedure.

Rolfe.
 
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