A Gravy Paper: William Rodriguez, Escape Artist

First, how do you know Mr. Rodriguez "was only a hundred feet from the collapse”? What is the source for this?

I'd suggest that sinceit is known he dived under a fire engine to escape getting crushed, and that we know the fire engine was beside WTC 6 and the airbridge there, that would put him about there when the collapse happened.

As to the late fireball in the lift, it has no bearing on Rodriguez's story because he claims that the explosions he heard were a few seconds apart, not minutes later, and we know that the first fireball down the lift shafts happened right after the crash. That others may have occured later is irrelevant.
 
Now, there are some calculations that could be done to give us a rough idea of what we might be looking at:
  • How long would it take the fuel to fall from the impact point to the sub-basement?
  • Where was the elevator when it failed and how long would it take to reach the sub-basement?
  • How long did it take the rescuers to respond to the elevator having crashed?*
  • How long did it take the rescuers to extract both individuals?*
I would also add:

1. A detailed plot positioning of the survivors in the basement in relation to the damage using the layout of the WTC that is found in the public domain.

2. A graphic, layout, or blueprint, showing the route that the fireball traveled to the subbasement down to level B-4 and still account for the survivors stories within and near the elevators. This is in my opinion the most important piece of information that absolutely no one has yet to provide. I cannot plot the fireball route and account for the survivor's experiences and stories as found in the public domain. I suspect that no one can by using jet fuel or a fireball as the means of destruction which leaves open one other possibility.

3. The overpressure data used to determine the amount of energy needed to cause the damage witnessed in the basement levels.

4. An explanation of how people and elevator shafts survived the fire and overpressure nearest the impact zone, but garages, offices, machine shops, PATH Level Plaza and people were damaged or destroyed farthest away from impact.

5. An explanation of why NIST did not choose to consider the gaping hole in the North Tower as a source of oxygen for the initial explosion which in turn determined the amount of fuel remaining in the building and the amount of fuel that was ignited upon impact. Without that hole, there is a lot more jet fuel to use an excuse.

we know that the first fireball down the lift shafts happened right after the crash.
Source?
 
5. An explanation of why NIST did not choose to consider the gaping hole in the North Tower as a source of oxygen for the initial explosion which in turn determined the amount of fuel remaining in the building and the amount of fuel that was ignited upon impact. Without that hole, there is a lot more jet fuel to use an excuse.

We already dealt with that one, I thought. The explosion produced an overpressure, so there was no way for air to come in through the hole to contribute to the explosion against that overpressure. The only oxygen available to contribute to that explosion was therefore the air already inside the tower; even that is an overestimate, as some of it would be forced out through the hole by the explosion overpressure.

Dave
 
Yet another missleading comment by Gravy...

An investigation confirmed controlled demolition?

Rodriguez: "Because that came out in the investigation that, probably that, this explosion was to weaken the base of the foundation of the building, to be synchronized with the hit on the top, so it would fall automatically." Source (11:50)
Notice William says that the explosion was to weaken the base of the foundation. Yet later Gravy turns it into
Rodriguez's contention that the basement explosions were deliberate, to damage the tower core columns, is nonsensical. There is no evidence that the elevator shaft explosions caused structural damage.

Within that segment of the paper, there is no contention by Willie that the explosion was to damage the core.

Gravy, why did you turn 'base of the foundation' into the 'tower core columns'?

The people who were closest to the elevator shaft explosions were burned by jet fuel: many of them tell us so.
If you read many of these accounts closely, these survivors are later told what happened, and then repeat what they are told.
 
We already dealt with that one, I thought. The explosion produced an overpressure, so there was no way for air to come in through the hole to contribute to the explosion against that overpressure. The only oxygen available to contribute to that explosion was therefore the air already inside the tower; even that is an overestimate, as some of it would be forced out through the hole by the explosion overpressure.

Dave

If I'm not mistaken, NIST uses that number alone to determine the remaining fuel level when in fact the oxygen from the hole would have contributed to the burning of more fuel. Or am I wrong?

Any chance of addressing the others points?
 
If I'm not mistaken, NIST uses that number alone to determine the remaining fuel level when in fact the oxygen from the hole would have contributed to the burning of more fuel. Or am I wrong?

I just explained why that number is reasonable when estimating the amount of fuel consumed in the original explosion, and why the oxygen from the hole wouldn't have contributed to the burning of more fuel because oxygen would have been forced out, not in. The remaining amount of fuel is what would have then been available for combustion, including fireballs and accelerant for the contents fire. This is all fairly obvious.

Any chance of addressing the others points?

I'll leave that to anybody who's got the time. Frankly, when I post a line of argument and you give a response to it that shows that you've completely ignored it, I fail to see the point of saying any more.

Dave
 
I just explained why that number is reasonable when estimating the amount of fuel consumed in the original explosion, and why the oxygen from the hole wouldn't have contributed to the burning of more fuel because oxygen would have been forced out, not in. The remaining amount of fuel is what would have then been available for combustion, including fireballs and accelerant for the contents fire. This is all fairly obvious.
The remaining amount of fuel for combustion and already on fire.
Lets not leave that out. That already on fire part is a bit tricky.
I'll leave that to anybody who's got the time. Frankly, when I post a line of argument and you give a response to it that shows that you've completely ignored it, I fail to see the point of saying any more.

I would dodge those other points too especially considering they can't be explained by a fireball from jet fuel. That is why Gravy has me on ignore.
 
You too? As Apollo has already suggested, consider it a badge of honor. We're an exclusive group.

I guess we should wear it with pride. I was one of the first to critique that paper early on. Missing sources, assumptions, and down right invalid interjections into the paper by Gravy himself. I think he was surprised I actually read it.
I thought for sure they could come up with some answers to the valid points I posted below.

It must be typical to dodge and ignore points that don't fit the official story.

He did use a bit of logic from my own work it appears. Located here.
 
I would also add:

1. A detailed plot positioning of the survivors in the basement in relation to the damage using the layout of the WTC that is found in the public domain.

2. A graphic, layout, or blueprint, showing the route that the fireball traveled to the subbasement down to level B-4 and still account for the survivors stories within and near the elevators. This is in my opinion the most important piece of information that absolutely no one has yet to provide. I cannot plot the fireball route and account for the survivor's experiences and stories as found in the public domain. I suspect that no one can by using jet fuel or a fireball as the means of destruction which leaves open one other possibility.

3. The overpressure data used to determine the amount of energy needed to cause the damage witnessed in the basement levels.

4. An explanation of how people and elevator shafts survived the fire and overpressure nearest the impact zone, but garages, offices, machine shops, PATH Level Plaza and people were damaged or destroyed farthest away from impact.

5. An explanation of why NIST did not choose to consider the gaping hole in the North Tower as a source of oxygen for the initial explosion which in turn determined the amount of fuel remaining in the building and the amount of fuel that was ignited upon impact. Without that hole, there is a lot more jet fuel to use an excuse.


Source?
Moving the goals. The question posted by RedIbis dealt specifically with the time between rescue and the time of the fireball. You are attempting to expand it. You have an existing thread for such discussion; please keep it there.

If I'm not mistaken, NIST uses that number alone to determine the remaining fuel level when in fact the oxygen from the hole would have contributed to the burning of more fuel. Or am I wrong?

Any chance of addressing the others points?
Your wrong:
2.2.1.2 Fire Development
It is estimated, based on information compiled from Government sources, that each aircraft contained about 10,000 gallons of jet fuel upon impact into the buildings. A review of photographic and video records show that the aircraft fully entered the buildings prior to any visual evidence of flames at the exteriors of the buildings. This suggests that, as the aircraft crashed into and plowed across the buildings, they distributed jet fuel throughout the impact area to form a flammable “cloud.” Ignition of this cloud resulted in a rapid
pressure rise, expelling a fuel rich mixture from the impact area into shafts and through other openings caused by the crashes, resulting in dramatic fireballs.

Although only limited video footage is available that shows the crash of American Airlines Flight 11 into WTC 1 and the ensuing fireballs, extensive video records of the impact of United Airlines Flight 175 into WTC 2 are available. These videos show that three fireballs emanated from WTC 2 on the south, east, and west faces. The fireballs grew slowly, reaching their full size after about 2 seconds. The diameters of the fireballs were greater than 200 feet, exceeding the width of the building. Such fireballs were formed when the expelled jet fuel dispersed and flames traveled through the resulting fuel/air mixture. Experimentally based correlations for similar fireballs (Zalosh 1995) were used to estimate the amount of fuel consumed.
The precise size of the fireballs and their exact shapes are not well defined; therefore, there is some uncertainty associated with estimates of the amount of fuel consumed by these effects. Calculations indicate that between 1,000 and 3,000 gallons of jet fuel were likely consumed in this manner. Barring additional information, it is reasonable to assume that an approximately similar amount of jet fuel was consumed by fireballs as the aircraft struck WTC 1.

Although dramatic, these fireballs did not explode or generate a shock wave. If an explosion or detonation had occurred, the expansion of the burning gasses would have taken place in microseconds, not the 2 seconds observed. Therefore, although there were some overpressures, it is unlikely that the fireballs, being external to the buildings, would have resulted in significant structural damage. It is not known whether the windows that were broken shortly after impact were broken by these external overpressures, overpressures internal to the building, the heat of the fire, or flying debris.
The first arriving firefighters observed that the windows of WTC 1 were broken out at the Concourse level. This breakage was most likely caused by overpressure in the elevator shafts. Damage to the walls of the elevator shafts was also observed as low as the 23rd floor, presumably as a result of the overpressures developed by the burning of the vapor cloud on the impact floors.

If one assumes that approximately 3,000 gallons of fuel were consumed in the initial fireballs, then the remainder either escaped the impact floors in the manners described above or was consumed by the fire on the impact floors. If half flowed away, then approximately 4,000 gallons remained on the impact floors to be consumed in the fires that followed. The jet fuel in the aerosol would have burned out as fast as the flame could spread through it, igniting almost every combustible on the floors involved. Fuel that fell to the floor and
did not flow out of the building would have burned as a pool or spill fire at the point where it came to rest.

The time to consume the jet fuel can be reasonably computed. At the upper bound, if one assumes that all 10,000 gallons of fuel were evenly spread across a single building floor, it would form a pool that would be consumed by fire in less than 5 minutes (SFPE 1995) provided sufficient air for combustion was available. In reality, the jet fuel would have been distributed over multiple floors, and some would have been transported to other locations. Some would have been absorbed by carpeting or other furnishings, consumed
in the flash fire in the aerosol, expelled and consumed externally in the fireballs, or flowed away from the fire floors. Accounting for these factors, it is believed that almost all of the jet fuel that remained on the impact
floors was consumed in the first few minutes of the fire.

As the jet fuel burned, the resulting heat ignited office contents throughout a major portion of several of the impact floors, as well as combustible material within the aircraft itself.
source Section 2 pgs 21-22
 
Notice William says that the explosion was to weaken the base of the foundation. Yet later Gravy turns it into


Within that segment of the paper, there is no contention by Willie that the explosion was to damage the core.

Is that even the issue? The issue is William believes there was damage on the lower floors due to said explosion. There was none.

Gravy, why did you turn 'base of the foundation' into the 'tower core columns'?

You are being pretty picky. What exactly is misleading about it? I could contend it is a mistake by Gravy, but what else would it be besides that?


If you read many of these accounts closely, these survivors are later told what happened, and then repeat what they are told.

Are you talking about the fact they were burned or that it was jet fuel?
 
Originally Posted by Swing Dangler
Gravy, why did you turn 'base of the foundation' into the 'tower core columns'?
Because that's what the "foundation" consists of at the center of the building, where the jet fuel explosion was.
 
Red, I think the issue is somantic. The fact is that Mark got the info from Rodriguez. Your issue seems to be with the lack of citation stating as much in his actual paper. That is an issue YOU have with the paper. I do not think that in the scope of the paper's creation, or the relevance of the information to the project, this is an important matter...I do not think one needs to cite every little minutia detail one picks up in conversations with people and then places it in the paper...unless it is of importance to the paper. You seem to think it is...then fine, to you it is an oversight.

TAM:)

so he interviewed Rodriguez? can we hear the tape?
 
Because that's what the "foundation" consists of at the center of the building, where the jet fuel explosion was.
But Gravy, William did not say the core of the building, he stated it was the foundation. They are two seperate parts of the structure.
What you did was change William's words to fit your description when in fact William did not state they were the core columns but instead the foundation.
A bit dishonest in my opinion.

You are being pretty picky. What exactly is misleading about it? I could contend it is a mistake by Gravy, but what else would it be besides that?
Well it is either a mistake, a misleading statement, or out right lie. I think it would be better to state exactly what William meant in his dicussion instead of twisting his words.
Gravy-Because that's what the "foundation" consists of at the center of the building, where the jet fuel explosion was.

Clear this up for us all.
1. Trace the route of the jet fuel and/or fire ball traveled to cause the destruction as far down as B-4. And please consider the survivors within the elevators and near the shafts who survived the overpressure. If you can not do this, there is no need to attack William R. any further.

2. Place in relation to the location of this jet fuel the survivors.

3. Calculate the necesary fuel/air ratio for the energy needed to cause a parking garage to be destroyed, walls to be cracked, people hurt, Path level Plaza cave-in, etc.

4. Determine how people closest to impact survived this over pressure but people and parts of the basement farthest away from impact did not.

5. Stop claiming it was jet fuel when people smelled kerosene when most likely it was diesel fuel from the parking garage as engineer, Mike P thought. Considering the destruction of the parking garage, diesel fuel is the better excuse for the smell instead of the jet fuel excuse. Have you ever considered this fact in the face of the destroyed parking garage and Path Plaza cave in??

6. Explain what Jenny Carr's audio record has captured prior to the first impact sound. To my knowlege there were no auto crashes prior to the first impact.
 
6 years and not one fact for 9/11 truth, why are they still making up stuff?

But Gravy, William did not say the core of the building, he stated it was the foundation. They are two seperate parts of the structure.
What you did was change William's words to fit your description when in fact William did not state they were the core columns but instead the foundation.
A bit dishonest in my opinion.


Well it is either a mistake, a misleading statement, or out right lie. I think it would be better to state exactly what William meant in his dicussion instead of twisting his words.


Clear this up for us all.
1. Trace the route of the jet fuel and/or fire ball traveled to cause the destruction as far down as B-4. And please consider the survivors within the elevators and near the shafts who survived the overpressure. If you can not do this, there is no need to attack William R. any further.

2. Place in relation to the location of this jet fuel the survivors.

3. Calculate the necesary fuel/air ratio for the energy needed to cause a parking garage to be destroyed, walls to be cracked, people hurt, Path level Plaza cave-in, etc.

4. Determine how people closest to impact survived this over pressure but people and parts of the basement farthest away from impact did not.

5. Stop claiming it was jet fuel when people smelled kerosene when most likely it was diesel fuel from the parking garage as engineer, Mike P thought. Considering the destruction of the parking garage, diesel fuel is the better excuse for the smell instead of the jet fuel excuse. Have you ever considered this fact in the face of the destroyed parking garage and Path Plaza cave in??

6. Explain what Jenny Carr's audio record has captured prior to the first impact sound. To my knowlege there were no auto crashes prior to the first impact.
The big problem with your list of bs is if an explosive was used, there would be a dead William and dead people from concussions. You are missing the big picture, you may not have the experience as evidenced in your list. You must come up with the proof of explosives and you have failed for 6 years to come up with facts. When can we expect a breakthrough from 9/11 truth?
 
so he interviewed Rodriguez? can we hear the tape?

There is no tape. The entire account is based on what Gravy claims he heard Rodriguez say

In the second thread on this topic Rodriguez clarifies his position and what he told Gravy.

The two most important points being that Rodriguez never told Mark he was about 100ft from the tower when it collapsed.

And secondly, that Rodriguez never said he smelled kerosene in the basements. What Rodriguez reported was a fuel like smell, possibly gas or diesel when he was going up the tower in the stairwells.

Quite a difference.
 
Quite a difference.

And yet, still consistent with what Gravy said. These are minor quibbles on non-substantive points. He smelled a fuel-like smell. Ok... consistent with both Gravy's kerosene and your diesel. 100 feet away? Close enough; the point is that he was neither directly under the towers, nor in New Jersey. He was damned close. Gravy's narrative does not require him to have been precisely 100 feet away.

I have seen critiques where a statement, when examined, starts to unravel an entire story and expose it as a lie. I have also seen this "critique".

Quite a difference.
 
The two most important points being that Rodriguez never told Mark he was about 100ft from the tower when it collapsed.
Which is completely irrelevant to anything in the paper! Why you fixate on this is bewildering, I can only assume that since you are unable to find errors in the important parts you desperately assail the minutia.

And secondly, that Rodriguez never said he smelled kerosene in the basements. What Rodriguez reported was a fuel like smell, possibly gas or diesel when he was going up the tower in the stairwells.
:dl:
 

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