[Moderated]Another engineer criticizes NIST & FEMA

If the towers were not “up to code”...
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That should be quite easy to determine. Does the code under which the buildings were built include ability to withstand aircraft impact and the resulting fires?

No?

Then on what possible basis would corruption charges or civil lawsuits against the WTC design team, NIST, or FEMA proceed?

ETA: Moreover, NIST explicitly makes clear that their study CANNOT be used in any litigation. So what possible motive could they have in covering anything up?
 
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Has DRG become a total enigma or what? You certainly keep it interesting, sir.
 
R.Mackey said:
The heat of the fires would have made helicopter rescue impossible. The helicopters on-scene noticed immediate excessive EGT (exhaust-gas temperature sensor) readings in their turbines when they got close, even without hovering, as they would have had to do to rescue anyone. The decision to discourage rooftop rescue was correct, but it's unfortunate that not everyone understood that.
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Thank you for that. I knew there had to be a good reason for this.
 
PhantomWolf said:
From what I understand, one of the main reasons that they weren't, was that because of the size, it simply wasn't possible to build buildings using the standard beam and column bays that were in use at the time. The weight of the steel would have meant that the lower floors would have had to have been solid.
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I'd be interested in Asteneh's results, but in the paper above from Hoo Fat, they increased the column thickness from 9.5mm to 20mm to stop the wings from penetrating, which is pretty significant and would add a great deal of weight.

Though their simulation stops as soon as the wings hit the building, and it would be interesting to find out how this would effect the fuel dispersion and fire in the event of an impact to a beefed up perimeter as well.
 
Apollo20 said:
The missing aircraft impact calculation is just one point I made to Prof. Astaneh. But if you are not interested in discussing the CORRUPTION angle of who worked on the NIST and FEMA Reports, well, fine... continue in your NISTIAN dream world...talking to each other .... I have better things to do than debate JREFers anyway .... I just thought some more open-minded folks out there might want to consider what Prof. Astaneh is saying...
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...but you haven't told us what he's saying, nor anything about this supposed corruption angle. What are we supposed to discuss? Idle speculation?
 
it wasn't even a hit, it was more like him telling us he had a hit in another game and then running away when we asked about it.
 
T.A.M. said:
I think Apollo has just produced the so called "Hit and Run" post...lol

Quote:
I have better things to do than debate JREFers anyway
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If there is any better proof that Apollo has went fully woo i would like to see it.
 
It is not so woo as one might suspect.
For one thing this has nothing to do with blaming neo-cons, no-planers, space weapons etc.

The subject is also not whether or not the buildings were up-to-code. They were. However, the code they adhered to was written specifically for them(well, for the PANYNJ).

Secondly, it has been brought up by others, on various occassions and in various venues that the core walls were simple drywall and that did nothing to protect the fire standpipes, sprinkler pipes, stairwells, that the spray on insulation used in many buildings is easily abraded but that a cementatious spray on is available as is a paint on that only expands when heated and adheres much better than the present insulation(which in many cases simply comes off when workers install new systems, such as new lighting)

Stairwells were narrow. They only have to be 44 inches wide!! Getting thousands of people out while having FF's go up takes too long.
Stairwells also were only protected by drywall. A concrete wall may have kept some stairs to the upper sections open.

Some elevators can be mounted to the outside corners of buildings and given secure power.

So there are two topics here.
1) Do codes for tall structures need to be rewritten, concrete stairwells, concrete protection of water supplies,cementatious insulation, secure elevators, wider stairwells?
2) Was there a deal made for PANYNJ that lessened the cost of construction and operation at the expense of safety?

The problem with #1 is that it would shine a light on the fact that these things have been thought of for a long time and that the deaths of 3000 people are what would be bringing them to light. The engineering community could be seen as culpable in not pushing for these changes earlier. The idea being that it would make buildings more expensive(increase the cost of a $100 million structure by 1% and you need another $1 million) and that would(could) impact the construction contracts that engineering firms get. Push for greater safety=less work

The problem with #2 is obvious. It would mean that someone's head would be on the line. Probably several, powerful, someones.
 
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To add some context, these are the opinions of Astaneh-Asl:

December 2003:

Based on the field investigation and study of drawings and other design related documents, it is the opinion of the author that the highly redundant exterior tube of the World Trade Center with many closely spaced columns was able to tolerate the loss of many columns and support the gravity while almost all occupants who could use a stairway escaped to safety. The collapse of the towers was most likely due to the intense fire initiated by the jet fuel of the planes and continued due to burning of the building contents. It is also the opinion of the author that had there been better fireproofing installed to delay the steel structure, specially the light weight truss joists and exterior columns from reaching high temperature until the content of the buildings burned out, probably the collapse could be avoided and the victims above the impact area rescued. Finally, in the opinion of the author, if the walls around the stairwells were stronger and the stairwells were not all located at one place, many of the victims who were trapped in the floors above the impact area probably could find a useable staircase and escape to safety.

http://www.ce.berkeley.edu/~astaneh/1-Publications/Astaneh-9ASEC-WTC Paper 2003.pdf
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September 2007:

"On 911 building the lost, the plane ended up being stronger than building, entered the building, caused the fire and the fire collapsed the buildings," said UC Berkeley professor Albolhassan Astaneh.

The World Trade Center was built using a type of construction that as far as professor Astaneh knows had never been used before, and has not been used since. Steel walls surround the structure bearing most of the load. In traditional building there's structural framing like a cage throughout the building making it stronger according to the professor.

"Our studies show that if you had designed it according to code using the traditional systems that we use in any other building the building would be easily defeating the plane," said Professor Astaneh.

Professor Astaneh says it's a little known fact that the World Trade Center was built without conforming to New York City's building code and without New York City permits; that's because construction was under the jurisdiction of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.

"It doesn't mean that there was anything wrong with the gravity design to resist the gravity of wind. But such a design did not have the embedded robustness that the code design would have," said Professor Astaneh.

He was quick to point out it wasn't engineers or designers who killed more than 3,000 people that day.

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=local&id=5646058
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September 2007:

Speaking on campus to memorialize the sixth anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, Abolhassan Astaneh said his five-year study of the collapse of the Twin Towers revealed that a better design likely would have prevented many of the nearly 3,000 deaths that day.

Astaneh sharply criticized the American Society of Civil Engineers, which he said cared more about defending the industry than revealing the truth about the towers' design.

"It's just moral corruption," Astaneh said in response to a question from the audience. "I don't beat around the bushes."

Astaneh, who first researched the disaster in the days following Sept. 11, said he had access to well-guarded architectural drawings of the 110-story towers for his study. The schematics showed that the buildings were supported almost completely by thin steel beams around the outside.

Thicker beams on the exterior and more concrete surrounding the stairwells would have added at least $30 million to the cost of the buildings, he said, but could have saved hundreds or thousands of lives after airliners hit both towers. Instead, the resulting 1,000-degree fire easily destroyed the structure, he said. Most tall skyscrapers, including Chicago's Sears Tower, are sturdier and likely wouldsurvive such attacks, Astaneh said. Because of the industry's defensiveness, "the public is left with the notion that these buildings were like any other buildings, he said.

With thicker beams, the animation showed the planes disintegrating almost immediately after hitting the tower. In contrast, the airliners punched through the unreinforced exterior with little resistance.

"Like a knife cutting through soft butter," Astaneh said. "Airplanes are not very strong, but this building was even weaker than an airplane."

New York building codes would have prevented the towers' flimsy design, he said, but federal laws allowed engineers to ignore those codes. The same exception has been granted to developers of New York's Freedom Tower, which will replace the World Trade Center.

http://www.insidebayarea.com/localnews/ci_6870312
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No I think Apollo just likes to taunt the "JREFers" as he has labeled us.

TAM:)
 
jaydeehess said:
It is not so woo as one might suspect.
For one thing this has nothing to do with blaming neo-cons, no-planers, space weapons etc.

The subject is also not whether or not the buildings were up-to-code. They were. However, the code they adhered to was written specifically for them(well, for the PANYNJ).

Secondly, it has been brought up by others, on various occassions and in various venues that the core walls were simple drywall and that did nothing to protect the fire standpipes, sprinkler pipes, stairwells, that the spray on insulation used in many buildings is easily abraded but that a cementatious spray on is available as is a paint on that only expands when heated and adheres much better than the present insulation(which in many cases simply comes off when workers install new systems, such as new lighting)

Stairwells were narrow. They only have to be 44 inches wide!! Getting thousands of people out while having FF's go up takes too long.
Stairwells also were only protected by drywall. A concrete wall may have kept some stairs to the upper sections open.

Some elevators can be mounted to the outside corners of buildings and given secure power.

So there are two topics here.
1) Do codes for tall structures need to be rewritten, concrete stairwells, concrete protection of water supplies,cementatious insulation, secure elevators, wider stairwells?
2) Was there a deal made for PANYNJ that lessened the cost of construction and operation at the expense of safety?

The problem with #1 is that it would shine a light on the fact that these things have been thought of for a long time and that the deaths of 3000 people are what would be bringing them to light. The engineering community could be seen as culpable in not pushing for these changes earlier. The idea being that it would make buildings more expensive(increase the cost of a $100 million structure by 1% and you need another $1 million) and that would(could) impact the construction contracts that engineering firms get. Push for greater safety=less work

The problem with #2 is obvious. It would mean that someone's head would be on the line. Probably several, powerful, someones.
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The woo is based on his odd remark about Jrefers but I'm sure you understand that.
 
T.A.M. said:
No I think Apollo just likes to taunt the "JREFers" as he has labeled us.

TAM:)
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Well he can clarify if he wants but slinging Jrefer as an insult like a few posters on LCF gets him called a woo. But again what I don't understand is that since Apollo is a poster here I guess he is a Jrefer.
 
This was the subject of PBSs NOVA program two nights ago, NIST has already made some big recommendations in the areas of fire proofing and better wider hardened stair wells.

Very interesting program, you had to feel sorry for Leslie Robertson the lead structural engineer of the WTC.

How safe is safe? How far do you go before it become a hindrance to progress. It's easy to be an armchair engineer after the fact.

Building on Ground Zero
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/
 
What if...
The WTC towers has four elevator shafts at each corner, all the people above the fire floors may have gotten out.

What if...
A system for evacuation from the roof had been developed and but into use?

And while we prepare for a similar attack, the terrorist will be planing a poison gas attack.

How safe are the ventilation systems in these buildings? Do we need a system to detect dangerous gasses and a system to clear any from buildings?
 
A20 is an intelligent but eccentric man who suffers fools badly. This is compounded by what appears to be a belief of his, that the great and vast majority of all persons are fools. Further complicating matters is his occassional venture into his own foolishness, which of course he cannot recognize as such.

In the matter at hand in this thread however, I believe he is correct (not including his editorial comment on "JREFer's")
 
Apollo20 said:
The missing aircraft impact calculation is just one point I made to Prof. Astaneh. But if you are not interested in discussing the CORRUPTION angle of who worked on the NIST and FEMA Reports, well, fine... continue in your NISTIAN dream world...talking to each other .... I have better things to do than debate JREFers anyway .... I just thought some more open-minded folks out there might want to consider what Prof. Astaneh is saying...
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Oh- and I'm sure you were entirely forthcoming on your intentions of using Professor Astaneh-Asl as your hand puppet...
 
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