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911 and the Propaganda Model

Polls reflect public opinion. that is all i am using them for, for the mo

Really ?

Well I reckon that aliens abduct people for kinky sexual experiments, don't argue with me, the polls I have shows that 25% of the public agree with me.

http://atheism.about.com/gi/pages/po...ll_sci0002.htm

Think before you post sunbeam, you have zero to tiny support, unless you agree that a quarter of America agree with me, that’s some 75 million Americans by the way.

You have no more support for your insane theories than I do for my alien theory. Your polls do not reflect public opinion any more than mine does. Or will you join me and demand an investigation into aliens abducting people for kinky sexual experiments?
 
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Do you know anything about what you write? Or does it just flow effortlessly?

http://www.swissre.com/pws/investor...urance company zurich.html#Major shareholders

The majority shareholders of Swiss Re are not gay chocolate watchmakers from Switzerland. (By "gay" I mean "happy"). They are large American investment corporations including Franklin-Templeton and The Capital Group.

I have a feeling you are just playing--that you've never actually read anything about the insurance industry.

You never answer any questions. You are entirely wrong when you try these "Oscar Wilde" style putdowns. And you are proven so, over and over again.

Why do you keep on maintaining your presumptuousness when you have no idea at all what you're talking about?
Why must I repeat everything to you time and time again? The major power structures in the US are the major corporate-political interest (the military industrial complex, as Eisenhower touched upon). The fact that there are some rich people who suffered from 9/11 is irrelevant- the major lobbyists- oil, arms, and the political establishment itself (these are the major power structures) have benefitted overwhelmingly. This is what matters.
 
Really ?

Well I reckon that aliens abduct people for kinky sexual experiments, don't argue with me, the polls I have shows that 25% of the public agree with me.

http://atheism.about.com/gi/pages/po...ll_sci0002.htm

Think before you post sunbeam, you have zero to tiny support, unless you agree that a quarter of America agree with me, that’s some 75 million Americans by the way.

You have no more support for your insane theories than I do for my alien theory. Your polls do not reflect public opinion any more than mine does. Or will you join me and demand an investigation into aliens abducting people for kinky sexual experiments?
Oh boy... what is the basis for this poll? Where has it come from? What are you trying to illustrate by listing it?
 
Oh boy... what is the basis for this poll? Where has it come from? What are you trying to illustrate by listing it?

So this poll does not reflect public opinion?

Remember,you said.........................

Polls reflect public opinion

Please think before you post sunbeam.
 
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So this poll does not reflect public opinion?

Remember,you said.........................



Please think before you post sunbeam.
D-D-D-D-D-D-D-'UH BUNKER!!!

Whats the sampling methodology of that poll?

A strong suggestion that you remember Rule 12 and cease the name calling.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LibraryLady
 
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Sorry mate, just noticed I hadnt replied to this:

Not by definition, and "suggests" is about as decisive a verb as you can use there. (Certainly not "proves," and not "implies" or "provides strong evidence" either.)

There is a correlation between watermelon sales and fireworks accidents in the U.S.. What causality is suggested by this? Does watermelon cause fireworks accidents, or do fireworks accidents increase the demand for watermelon? Are these "suggestions" valid?

I think I addressed this in the post you are replying to here

[/quote]
There is, of course, the caveat of datamining, and coincidences, but when the correlation is supported by evident facts, some of whih are listed in my OP, then this makes this possibility unlikely.
[/quote]

Shuffling the approximately (conservatively) 20 billion dollars in total 9/11-caused insurance payouts (the WTC insurance is the tip of the iceberg) among different companies doesn't make it go away. It takes enormous organized corporate power to come up with 20 billion dollars of liquidity. And what about the banks, the stock brokerages, the entire major industry sectors that were also harmed?

But we know which are the most influential lobbies in Washington. The sectors in the military industrial complex. These are the interests which have benefitted from 9/11, these are the major power interests.

Note also that control of the major strategic assets should, in theory, aid the US economy- e.g. petrodollars propping up the currency, control of the oil supply etc. Thus 9/11 is, in the long term, in the interests of US companies, in theory, though they have screwed up the execution pretty bad.

You need to state how you define "the main power structures." What are the criteria you use to differentiate a "main power structure" from an interest that happens to have a lot of money or power but is not a "main power structure"? Note that as long as your only answer is "by whether or not they benefitted from 9/11," your assertion quoted immediately above is a meaningless tautology.

Respectfully,
Myriad

I have never used such a tautology. But your answer is above.
 
Why must I repeat everything to you time and time again? The major power structures in the US are the major corporate-political interest (the military industrial complex, as Eisenhower touched upon). The fact that there are some rich people who suffered from 9/11 is irrelevant- the major lobbyists- oil, arms, and the political establishment itself (these are the major power structures) have benefitted overwhelmingly. This is what matters.
It sure isn't irrelevant to the people who did suffer at the hands of the terrorists on 9/11. At the same time, the American-led incursions into Iraq and Afghanistan had a very great effect on the "power elites" there. Didn't they?

But you're again veering off from your thesis--that the "corporate propaganda model" deliberately ignored ("censored" was your ill-advised term) WTC7. Meanwhile, as you've amply displayed, the same "corporate propaganda model" was just as inefficient at demonstrating to you that about the only things "Swiss" about Swiss Re are part of its name and the location of its head office.

So, the CPM is just as bad at advising you when you're wrong as it is of overthrowing the "power elites".

Whether these "power elites" have, in your words, benefitted overwhelmingly from the 9/11 attacks is up to debate. Your arguments are weak, in this sense, because they fail to account for the prestige the USA suffered as a consequence of the attacks. And its response--specifically in the case of Iraq but more and more in the case of Aghanistan and its relations with the governments ruling the states of the former Soviet Union. "Benefitted overwhelmingly" is an unsupportable hyperbole.

At the same time, there actually are mass media publications, resources, and journalists who are actively involved in either "exposing" or otherwise working contrary to the interests of the "power elite". I have referred to them several times on this thread and you simply ignore them because, I trust, you're afraid to admit that you're wrong.

There will be a time when the USA and its "power elites" are gone. Such a thing happened before, many times, throughout history. Generally this happens when another nation or power takes it away from them. All the "corporate propaganda" machines in the world wouldn't have saved the Abbasid Caliphate, the Paleologoi, or the Yuan Dynasty.

But the terrorist attacks of 9/11 were far too incidental, in an historical context, to provide any means to an end to how the world works. Do you think that they ought to have done so?
 
I fear that mjd suffers from a common ailment, one that has also cursed the 'end of the world' people since ancient times.

Everybody thinks the important things that are happening in their time will be important as well in the future when things are taken into historical context and signify a major change in history or bring some prediction to fruition.

I suppose it's hard not to be a little myopic about 911 a scant 6 years later, but some people get carried away.
 
D-D-D-D-D-D-D-'UH BUNKER!!!

Whats the sampling methodology of that poll?

A strong suggestion that you remember Rule 12 and cease the name calling.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LibraryLady

Now, now, now MJD, there is not need to get all upset, we are just having a friendly debate after all.

Methodology?

You have used online polls to support your position that millions, in fact approx 120 million Americans support your position that 911 was an inside job, the vast majority support you, according to you.

I, sunbeam, have used the exact same methodology to support my position that aliens abduct people and perform kinky sexual experiments on them. 25% of the people polled support me. So by your methodology approx 75 million Americans support me.

Annoying isn't it?
 
I fear that mjd suffers from a common ailment, one that has also cursed the 'end of the world' people since ancient times.

Everybody thinks the important things that are happening in their time will be important as well in the future when things are taken into historical context and signify a major change in history or bring some prediction to fruition.

I suppose it's hard not to be a little myopic about 911 a scant 6 years later, but some people get carried away.
That myopia is the secret behind the success of local nightly news programmes too, twinstead. It isn't some kind of nefarious "corporate propaganda model" that brings us kittens rescued from neighbourhood trees instead of what's "important".

At the same time, that's why we go to libraries, read books, talk to professionals in their fields, and attend colleges and universities to broaden our comprehension of the world and its various components.

We all might despair that "the others" are allowed to elect officials to positions of responsibility when their clearest view of the world is whether their favourite sports team won this week. But, as many of the "power elite" have been quoted as saying, it's a better system than the alternative(s).

Maybe we can all agree on this once mjd1982 returns from his vacation.
 
If you could replace market-driven capitalist media, what would you replace it with? To my knowledge the only other model that's ever existed in the real world is media controlled entirely by government and/or by other elites such as guilds, churches, and aristocracies, which is much worse (and protects power even more effectively and ruthlessly). But perhaps I'm overlooking something. Please point to either a real-world model you would emulate, or the details (perhaps a draft constitution) of the unprecedented improved alternative system you'd advocate.

My suggested alternative is linked to below. Admittedly, the thread is rambling, taken as a whole, but I like to think individual posts make sense.....

I don't intend to participate in this thread, though it is interesting. A couple of comments:

Not all self-censorship is good. E.g., the family in which child abuse is going on, and yet will not speak of it.

As far censorship and self-censorship in news organizations, see the documentary "The Corporation" and the books "
Into the Buzzsaw: Leading Journalists Expose the Myth of a Free Press" and "The Record of the Paper: How the New York Times Misreports US Foreign Policy ". In a society tending towards fascism in Mussolini's sense ( "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power.") , political censorship and self-censorship overlaps economic censorship and self-censorship. How could it be otherwise?

=====================================

My boilerplate:

>> Putting the NY Times Out of Business <<
Proposal to replace ALL corrupt media

I have posted a proposal on the Randi Rhodes show forum for replacing our current media with a new, sustainable media that facilitates the selection of "filtering agents". You can think of these as honest gatekeepers that YOU trust - and that keep out trivial information, rather than very important information that groups with economic and other hidden agendas prefer to hide from you.

Broadband access is now up to 42% in the US, so it is quite possible to target TELEVISION, which is how about 48% of Americans get 30+ minutes of news per day (as opposed to only about 9% over the internet). See http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=282

The thread is entitled: "Putting the NY Times Out of Business"
The thread is subtitled: "Proposal to replace ALL corrupt media"

Link:
http://forums.therandirhodesshow.com/index.php?showtopic=76406

PLEASE FORWARD THIS TO ANYBODY WHO MIGHT BE INTERESTED
 
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Since mjd has a little extra time on his hands for a couple days, I wonder if he would consider an addition to his little "experiment." Before asking how many skyscrapers collapsed on 9/11, ask how many skyscrapers were in the WTC prior to the events of 9/11. I suspect there will be a direct correlation regarding who will get each question right.

This "experiment" is more about the psychology of information acquisition and retention than media censorship or propaganda. In a way, there is a type of censorship going on, but neither the government nor the media are doing it. It is the general populace. We only remember the things that are important to us* and disregard the rest.



*And ad jingles for products we have no intention of ever purchasing. Those things can be insidious. :D
 
< preceeding stuff snipped >

PLEASE FORWARD THIS TO ANYBODY WHO MIGHT BE INTERESTED

My largest problem with what you propose is that it is not unlike affiliate advertiser networking in one respect, and not unlike what already exists in another. I don't mean to state that in terms that might be considered pejorative, especially in comparing your proposition with something like affiliate advertising, but the model isn't dissimilar overall.

What you seem to be proposing is a distributed network of individual sources filtered together in different formats, depending on the distributor, in a manner that becomes mutually beneficial for the distributors, the individual sources, and ostensibly the viewers/readers/listeners. The flaw I find with this is that this is not much different than how news is currently assembled: agencies filled with numerous individual reporters who write material that is bought up by either network affiliates or local newspapers / radio / television on a case-by-case basis and presented to the public. The Associated Press, Reuters, BBC World News, National Public Radio-- they all do this stuff, and more than half of what you would read in your daily newspaper is likely to come from these sources. News agencies have ombudsmen that basically serve as the head of the "filtering" department that can present input on whether certain things should be allowed or not. The reason this is a flaw is because 'trust' isn't going to be enough of an impetus for maintaining valid reporting. While picking on FOX News (and rightly so) is all-the-rage in terms of news reporting that has lowered the bar on standards in journalism, the plain truth is that every agency out there, from the largest to the small local agencies, have allowed their standards to drop right along with the rest.

The affiliate advertising network model, on the other hand, is one often espoused by the "alternative" news agencies and some AM radio. This model, not unlike the previously mentioned model, relies on a large number of independent sources producing content that are then collected as per the agency's reporting objectives, often heavily linking the source material to produce the mutually beneficial 'affiliate' revenue flow. Two very notorious examples of this would be Rush Limbaugh, who constantly self-references and references only preferential information sources, and Alex Jones' PrisonPlanet network, in which every single broadcast that is freely available lets the listener or veiwer know that more information (though 'more' is typically synonymous with 'more of the same' in this case) is available if the viewer / listener goes to their website, which in turn links to further downloadable material, often only at a marginal cost, that claims to give a more full and absolute story. This differs from the larger network model in that those further materials also make citations and constant references to other materials, leading the viewer / listener who is convinced to search out the information to feel compelled to buy even more of the media, whether it be videos, radio tapings, a regularly-subscribed newsletter, or something else. This creates for the agency a constantly-revolving flow of revenue, even if the spending isn't done directly on the agency's product initially, because the network of sourced and linked media invariably comes back to the agency's list of products that are for sale, which link and source back to other affiliates, and vice versa.

Relating back to the OP as well, this is a problem I see with not only the over-used "mainstream media" outlets, but from the "truth" outlets as well. It is a mixture of affiliate networking and contributor-based reporting that is already filtered through departments that have been entrusted to maintain the claimed ethical integrity that is claimed by the original agency to begin with. Attempting to apply specific motivations across the entire genres is disingenuous at best, intellectually dishonest at worst, and plays on the assumed ignorance of the consuming population no matter what the degree of the attribution takes place. The problem with both over-arching models and pretty much any new model that may spring from it is that all of them attempt to remove the need for critical thinking from the equation by intending to supply what that model believes is what would be most pertinent information that would otherwise require critical thinking skills to get at in the first place. While every indication may seem that these models are intended to benevolently provide the 'necessary' information to the widest audience possible, the fact is that the sheer amount of data that must be processed on a daily basis either requires the viewer / listener / reader to engage in critical thinking from the beginning or expects to feed the viewer / listener / reader the post-processed information with little or no expectation of critical thinking on the part of the consumer at all. One method taken too far becomes too difficult to gain any traction with a consuming public, and the other method eventually must play to the lowest common denominator on a daily routine (and this FOX excells at doing).

I would like to say I don't mean to be overly critical of your thesis, metamars, but in truth I have to say that I've seen this play out already. Even user-driven models (like Slashdot and Digg) have pretty much become mature enough models that there is little question at their revenue-generating ability. The weaknesses and flaws for each lie not in the models themselves, but in the fact that human beings are, in fact, human beings. Because of this, the desire for presentation over content, flash over substance, and hype over critical thinking are going to be ever-present and powerful temptations. The question isn't going to be if an agency using these models will fall victim to the weaknesses, the question is when they will fall victim and how they can work their way out of it once it happens.
 
Your reply was serious enough, and directed to my post, so I've decided to reply.

What you seem to be proposing is a distributed network of individual sources filtered together in different formats, depending on the distributor, in a manner that becomes mutually beneficial for the distributors, the individual sources, and ostensibly the viewers/readers/listeners. The flaw I find with this is that this is not much different than how news is currently assembled: agencies filled with numerous individual reporters who write material that is bought up by either network affiliates or local newspapers / radio / television on a case-by-case basis and presented to the public.

Yes, but with a few key differences. First, no advertising is allowed, so censoring due to economic pressure from advertisers is non-existent (well, that's an exaggeration. There would probably be some pressure via threatened lawsuits). If you see the documentary "The Corporation", and then try to imagine a similar scenario wherein solid reporting on Bovine Growth Hormone is suppressed, you will have a lot of problems doing so.

Secondly, there is increased de-centralization, so I expect it to be harder to corrupt the system subtly via the placing, by well-funded entities with vested interests, of covert censors*. In an evironment like JREF, this concern is likely to be automatically treated with disbelief and scorn, but I certainly don't agree. Even if I were wrong, and there was 0 chance that big business, think tanks, intelligence agencies, and God knows who else might want to influence the news covertly, migrating to a structure that would make such a potential source of corruption more difficult can't hurt. If I take a vaccine for dengue fever, but never encounter a dengue fever pathogen, I will not regret my vaccination (unless there's mercury in it...)

There is another key difference, which addresses one of the key irritants with "the media" that got me thinking of this proposal. And that is, that subscribers can "vote with their hands" by directing micro-payments towards the covering of any topic of their choosing. You can't do that now, except indirectly via an irate letter to the editor. As far as I can tell, such letter merely provide venting, and if they've ever sparked the birth of investigative reporting, well, that's news to me.

Perhaps the most striking example of this are the stunning pronouncements that emanated from madcowprod.com. They are either extremely significant, and Hopsicker deserves a medal, OR they are sheer fiction, and Hopsicker deserves to be vilified. The question arises "Which is it?" and the answer is "I don't know". In a science such as physics, multiple experiments by independent researchers is the norm for verification. In the case of Hopsicker's claims, there is neither verification (AFAIK) nor falsification, hence neither the "conspiracy theorist" nor the "debunker" should feel at all confident in passing judgement on Hopsicker's work.


The Associated Press, Reuters, BBC World News, National Public Radio-- they all do this stuff, and more than half of what you would read in your daily newspaper is likely to come from these sources.

Yes, but how good do they do it? Wherever you have centralization, you have the potential for censorship (again, in the broad sense I define below.) And, unfortunately, in a world where lies are plentiful and never-ending, can even "good" factual reporting, which involves quoting official sources, be trusted when the official sources are lying their tails off? This lying would be made much more obvious if new stories were placed in proper context with contradictory facts and quotes.

Fortunately, rather than just speaking to this subject abstractly, there is a partial, and fair, example of what I had in mind. I am speaking of therealnews.com, which is still being born, but will exist via subscription, and will give a more accurate picture of our world than what we have now. They will certainly not accomplish this by over reliance on news-wires, as you have mentioned.

However, if they were to create their own news-wire service, why should that not eventually be a source for other media vehicles, should they indeed come to be trusted beyond Reuters, et. al.?


The affiliate advertising network model, on the other hand, is one often espoused by the "alternative" news agencies and some AM radio. This model, not unlike the previously mentioned model, relies on a large number of independent sources producing content that are then collected as per the agency's reporting objectives, often heavily linking the source material to produce the mutually beneficial 'affiliate' revenue flow. Two very notorious examples of this would be Rush Limbaugh, who constantly self-references and references only preferential information sources, and Alex Jones' PrisonPlanet network, in which every single broadcast that is freely available lets the listener or viewer know that more information (though 'more' is typically synonymous with 'more of the same' in this case) is available if the viewer / listener goes to their website,

No, not what I had in mind. In it's pure form, advertising is forbidden completely, though practical constraints may dictate otherwise.

At the end of the day, though, in a free society, you should be able to pick whatever filters and sources pleases you, and if you really believe that Rush Limbaugh or Alex Jones are the cat's meow of objectivity, truth, and fairness, there's not much I can do about it. Any more than I can do much about people restricting themselves to these individuals right now.

However, I think that gentle exposure to facts contradicting one's world view can eventually make one aware as to the limitations of whatever ideological (and non-ideological) blinders are being worn by whatever sources of news and commentary that one has put one's trust in. This is discussed somewhat in Faulty Towers of Belief: Part I. Demolishing the Iconic Psychological Barriers to 9/11 Truth. http://journalof911studies.com/volume/2007/FaultyTowersofBeliefPart_I.pdf Though I wish the author hadn't used the word "demolish", and it's focus is 911, in point of fact it has relevance far beyond 911.

There is a tough constraint to trying to overcome inherent biases, in that human beings are inherently subjective, and this is also true of ostensibly hyper-rational types. I don't want to get into this - it's too big a subject. Suffice it to say that my proposal is meant to ameliorate the current mess we have now, and can't totally overcome frailties of the human psyche that, in large part, may well derive from biological factors. Total solutions are the domain of complete idealists, and I am not a member of such a group. For more info, you might start your reading with the chapter in E.O. Wilson's "On Human Nature" dealing with religion.

So, if alternatives developed enough, I would hope that numerous sources of news and commentary of the quality that I hope 'The REAL News' will manifest should eventually allow large numbers of citizens to inquisitively approach the real world beyond whatever ideological predispositions they may have.


The problem with both over-arching models and pretty much any new model that may spring from it is that all of them attempt to remove the need for critical thinking from the equation by intending to supply what that model believes is what would be most pertinent information that would otherwise require critical thinking skills to get at in the first place.

No, you are taking a very pessimistic viewpoint. It is not so cut-and-dried as this. By analogy, consider the case of a consumer and financial advisor. If the consumer seeks a financial advisor, they should find one that they both can trust (otherwise, why even bother with them, at all?) but also one that they can question, and, upon questioning, be provided with answers that make sense to them. It'd be nice to have such complete trust in a financial advisor - both as to their character and their competence - that the consumer feels that no questions ever need be asked.

However, I think anybody who assumes that even a domain expert with an impeccable character cannot make mistakes is being rather foolish. To err is human, and that's just the way it is. And collections of humans, within organizations such as government and news agencies, are also prone to err.

So, nobody is claiming that critical thinking is be dispensed with. On the contrary, subscribers should be able to easily "vote with their feet", not just "vote with their hands". Whether they feel betrayed by a filtering agent, or whether they simply conclude that they are incompetent or biased (perhaps unconsciously), they can and should fire them and get another that they can trust.



* a "censor", as I am using the term, can mean not just somebody engaged in outright and total suppression of a story, but also somebody who leaves out key elements or, perhaps, merely de-emphasizes key elements of a story. It can also mean somebody who de-emphasizes a story by not publishing an appropriate amount of followup stories - i.e., not giving the story "legs".

In a nutshell, it means somebody who will slant their presentation of the news so as to satisfy an agenda.
 

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