Death penalty is wrong, this is why..

CFLarsen said:
...for everyone else but themselves.
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...no no no. I'd be quite pleased - well, I'd be completely oblivious, actually - to see me go down with the rest of the species. I'm no better than most, and a lot worse than a few. And I fully realize that any such totalitarian regime I might imagine would have cracked down on a few of my vices years ago.

Let's just say that I'd rather see mankind undergo a massive shift in behavior and thinking patterns to become an almost entirely benign and enlightened species before I'd hope for their ultimate survival. That is, if the species is going to survive and thrive, let it first learn how to cure its own woes; otherwise, we may as well follow in the footsteps of the Neanderthals and Cros, and step aside to let some other species take over.

In the meantime, we should either consistantly apply draconian measures to deter crime, or we should stop whining about the prevalence of criminals and the perversity of justice that is our current system (speaking as a USer).

Personally, I think the use of capital punishment in the US is inconsistant, takes too long to apply, and is not in proportion with the punishments for other crimes. Yes, I'm all for it as a deterrant, but at present, capital punishment isn't much of a deterrant. So given that fact, I'm against it in its current form. For that matter, I'm against a lot of punishments, on the ground that they appear ineffective in deterring crime. Parking tickets are the worst yet, except for the whole points on your license thing. If it weren't for points, all a parking ticket would amount to would be a permit for the wealthy to park wherever they damned well please.

But let's not get started on issues of wealth... :rolleyes:

But I think Clausy is right in many ways - I do lack compassion in general. Oh, sure, I empathize when I see a hurt child, or a homeless person. I've given to hoards of charities and beggars, even when I didn't have much more than they did. I regularly employ a few down-on-their-luck guys in our neighborhood for yardwork or other simple tasks, just to help them out - even if they are just taking the $20 I gave them to buy beer or a bit of crack (at least they're doing something to earn the money).

But I lack compassion for people who would murder, steal, destroy, maim, rape, molest, etc. I also lack compassion for people who choose to remain ignorant, who choose to remain impoverished, who choose to remain in bad relationships (I do have compassion for those for whom there is no choice). And I feel strongly for those who cannot help themselves when they kill, or steal, or destroy, etc. Of course, that's a tiny piece of the criminal population, and usually if they can prove they were the slaves of their own damaged brains and chemical imbalances, they don't get punished in the same ways. I'm fine with that. For the rest, however, no mercy. No compassion. No love, nor care, nor interest, really. Because they have caused harm to society, and will continue to do so if not stopped.

This, to me, is the greater good - preventing harm to society/humanity as a whole at the cost of the rights of individual humans.

That being said, I can't honestly say that I believe a totalitarian, fascist regime is any better for mankind than any other. But it seems to me (and I'm speaking purely on feelings and memories) that the crime rates among civilians (for normal crimes, not anti-gov't ones) generally are lower in fascist nations than in, say, corporate republics like the U.S. (Of course, that's largely because the governments in those regimes are doing most of the crime, and the general population is too terrified to break the law...)

I could be wrong.

I feel similarly about stem cell research or research on human subjects. If a few thousand people have to suffer or die so that millions of future humans can have healthier lives, I'm all for it. Even if I'm the one who has to suffer (I've volunteered for dozens of medical experiments, but I usually get rejected - usually to abnormally acidic Ph levels. Once I got rejected for being too tall, and once for being male. Hmmph.).

Come to think of it, I was probably one of the only people in the theatre during Batman Begins who thought that the League of Shadows had a good idea...
 
Matteo Martini said:
It was obvious that things like this, sooner or later, could happen..
How sad!!
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Yes, it is mathematically obvious and yes it is sad. The whole business about crime and punishment is sad. Keeping someone in prison for life is sad. But the pragmatist says "do your best to minimize sadness". I support the judicious use of the death penalty because I think it does that.
 
Tricky said:
Yes, it is mathematically obvious and yes it is sad. The whole business about crime and punishment is sad. Keeping someone in prison for life is sad. But the pragmatist says "do your best to minimize sadness". I support the judicious use of the death penalty because I think it does that.
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I strongly disagree with you.
You are reasoining in absolute terms, one innocent sent to death, together with 99 culpables sent to death, means one percent.
But, if you are that innocent man, it means 100%.
Quoting Malraux:
" A life is worth nothing, nothing is worth a life "
I will put it in my sign
 
Matteo Martini said:
Quoting Malraux:
" A life is worth nothing, nothing is worth a life "
I will put it in my sign
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That leads naturally to the question, "How much is a life worth, then?"

The question is not trivial, and the answer, "You cannot put a value of life", is a meaningless cop-out.
 
jsfisher said:
That leads naturally to the question, "How much is a life worth, then?"

The question is not trivial, and the answer, "You cannot put a value of life", is a meaningless cop-out.
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$1,000,000. Simple, easy to remember, reasonable.
 
balrog666 said:
Well ... how about Swiss Francs? Although I've forgotten the symbol ... or they all Monopoly-money Euros now?
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Euros it is. One life = 1,000,000 euros. Agreed?

ETA: Any concessions for age? Is a newborn worth a full 1,000,000 euros? What about a 70 year old geezer? ...a 70 year old non-geezer?
 
jsfisher said:
Euros it is. One life = 1,000,000 euros. Agreed?

ETA: Any concessions for age? Is a newborn worth a full 1,000,000 euros? What about a 70 year old geezer? ...a 70 year old non-geezer?
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Agreed. 1,000,000 Euros. Let's keep it simple. And don't bring up the cost of 20 years on death row - I could simplify that all too easily.

Oh, I was watching a World Poker Tour event at the Aviation Club in Paris and at the end (down to two players) they brought out the cash. It was stacked in purple and yellow and green notes - it looked just like Monopoly money!
 
Tricky said:
How early? First time they bully their elementry school classmates? As soon as they reach puberty? Adulthood? The seeds of antisocial behavior are planted very young. I don't know that "locking them up" is the answer, but I definitely agree with identifying it early and making efforts to correct it. This is a really big topic, probably out of the scope of this thread.
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I faced my bullies, and probably dabbled a bit myself, but I don't recall anyone going to jail and I survived. That is human nature, to be managed, but never eliminated.

The seeds are planted young, by example yes, but ultimately by parents who are the same or just plain incompetent. As you say, that is more than just another topic, but my point is simply that we will always live with it unless we figure out how to stop criminals breeding criminals at a bare minimum, and then paying them to raise them that way.

That doesn't cover the whole spectrum, but it sure covers a hell of a big part of it.


Boy, that sounds pretty cruel and unusual to me, but I admit, I don't have enough details of your program to know if it will really rehabilitate people, or just make them angrier. And if you're not trying to rehabilitate people, what is the point of keeping them locked up?
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I was being deliberately direct, in Z's tradition, to illustrate the principles. One being that there are some we have to give up on at this time and life doesn't have to be for murder or similar only, it can be for protecting society from obvious habitual criminals. Maybe, some can change, but they would have to prove it, not just behave in prison.

many ot It sounds as if you, like me and so hers, are wrestling with compassion versus "tough love". One thing we need to realize is that no matter what system we use, there will always be a few misanthropes who do not respond to anything. There are also a few who might respond to the "perfect" treatment, if we could figure out what it is. Unfortunately, it is different for every one of them.
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Compassion and tough love seem synonymous to me. Actually I'm more in Z's camp on that, although I do have more belief that people can change. However one major issue is education. The worst offenders in the US, as a group, have less educational knowledge than a poppy farmer in Afghanistan. For the young I would say lock em up in special schools and don't let them out until they graduate for real, and take away the subsidies that their parents get for them, which should provide a decent source of funding.

It is not pragmatic to tailor our criminal justice system to fit every possible variety of screwed-up brain. Sad, but true. At some point, the pragmatic solution is to cut our losses. I wish it weren't so, but my bias is always for the greater good for the greatest number. I can't be so compassionate for criminals that I forget my compassion for the rest of society.
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I thought the whole issue was compassion for the rest of society, by protecting it. Bottom line is that we can point to (sticking with the young for now) youths in certain categories and say with 90+% certainty that they will be criminals with records within a few years, or less. We know the future, but we wait for it to happen first, victims and all, then pretend to act. I think there can be solutions that will catch that earlier, but they also threaten other rights that we take for granted, not to mention that talking of labeling is considered just like "profiling". It may make sense but it raises other fears, whether paranoid or not.

One simple way to start, would be more focus on early offenders along the lines of above. Another would be birth control programs that work, but for that we would need an atheist president, not to mention congress.

Bottom line. I don't believe in pussyfooting around when it comes to career criminality and incompetent parenting.
 
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Originally Posted by Z
That's a very good point. Obviously, I tend to lack compassion when it comes to criminality. I don't care much for 'human rights'. Of course, that path leads to fascism and totalitarianism, and I'm under no illusion otherwise.


CFLarsen said:
How does human rights lead to fascism and totalitarianism?



It seems you lack compassion, period.
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I think you and the lapdog you have read the sentence wrong. Perhaps Z missed the post so I'll try to rephrase:

That's a very good point. Obviously, I tend to lack compassion and when it comes to criminality I don't care much for 'human rights'. Of course, that path leads to fascism and totalitarianism, and I'm under no illusion otherwise.


What a difference a few letters and a minor punctuation change can make.
 
jsfisher said:
That leads naturally to the question, "How much is a life worth, then?"

The question is not trivial, and the answer, "You cannot put a value of life", is a meaningless cop-out.
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I did not pretend to give any answer.
Just pointing out the absurdity of say, OK, we can accept innocents executed, if the percentage of innocent on the total of the executed is, let` say, less than 1 or 5 or 10%.
First, as it is difficult to assess if an innocent is executed, since the law would not have considered him guilty, in first place.
Second, most important, this logic does not work as, if you are the innocent sent to death, the error is not 1% or 5% or 10%, but 100%
 
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