The 9/11 Conspiracy Facts

Nothing on that page about 911, try again, paper from my country though.

Thats what I thought. Move the goal posts. Should I start looking for the date, exact time, as well as the brand of underwear the terrorists were wearing to prove my point?
 
Indeed. It is nonsense. Because what you've "forgotten" is that warnings with clear indications can lead to preventing the incident.

"A man named X will hijack plane #Y in NYC in two days. Intercept him."

"A man will hijack a plane sometime soon."

See the difference ?

You left out what should have happened...
"Thank you for the warnings. Here is what we will do to be proactive and try to stop or at least hinder the hijackers....."
and what did happen....

"Thank you for the warnings. Now back off Bin Laden and don't bother me I'm going on vacation and thinking of ways to attack Iraq."
 
Thats what I thought. Move the goal posts. Should I start looking for the date, exact time, as well as the brand of underwear the terrorists were wearing to prove my point?

You provided a source that had nothing on the page??

if you link to a source it should have your information on it?
 
I should probably point this out for future reference... the people in charge of the IC? They don't do the analysis; they just report it. Therefore, in actuality, the leaders of the IC know somewhat LESS than the lower ranking analysts.

Just a thought.
 
Of course not. But by this logic, no attack is preventable, since there are so many intel warnings every day. This is clearly nonsense. The facts are very simple:
- According to Tenet, the main man who would know this stuff, the terror threat was unprecedented. He was running around with his hair on fire, and an FBI source said the warnings had never been so bad.
- Clarke makes very explicit, that despite all these warnings, the admin didnt give a toss. Again, he is someone who woudl know more than you, me, or Sabrina's m8ys. And his version of events is very very clear. He gets demoted, and then all warnings get inexplicably ignored, to the extent that 911 was a failing of the administrative apparatus.

These are people who know. And as we all know, their are too many more to mention. Their verdict is unanimous. Dont argue with it.

I completely agree. No need to apologize for the Administration as it is unwarranted.
 
So, where there real threats of attacks by terrorists, the administration chose to ignore them and they happened, or were there no threats because terrorism isn't as bad as the administration made it out to be, and the administration felt the need to stage 911?

ETA: It appears that you want to show evidence that there was a good possibility that terrorists would do exactly what we claim they did on 911 in order to prove it was an inside job.

In that case, you are arguing LIHOP. That's fine, but why all this CD argument then? Why not just say the official story is correct, but the attacks could have been stopped?
 
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You left out what should have happened...
"Thank you for the warnings. Here is what we will do to be proactive and try to stop or at least hinder the hijackers....."
and what did happen....

"Thank you for the warnings. Now back off Bin Laden and don't bother me I'm going on vacation and thinking of ways to attack Iraq."

I see you are not the kind of person looking for an honest debate.

1) "A man named X will hijack plane #Y in NYC in two days. Intercept him."

2) "A man will hijack a plane sometime soon."

HOW THE HELL can you act on number 2 ?
 
What do you think would have happened if they had fitted strengthend doors prior to 911 and could it have been done to all airliners between August 6th and Sept 11th?

For SwingDangler

Just in case you missed it or are ignoring it?


Also

Swing Dangler said:
Thats what I thought. Move the goal posts. Should I start looking for the date, exact time, as well as the brand of underwear the terrorists were wearing to prove my point?
fukv de fino said:
You provided a source that had nothing on the page??

if you link to a source it should have your information on it?

Again, I never moved the goalposts, you gave a link that links to nothing?
 
I see you are not the kind of person looking for an honest debate.

1) "A man named X will hijack plane #Y in NYC in two days. Intercept him."

2) "A man will hijack a plane sometime soon."

HOW THE HELL can you act on number 2 ?

One your using a very simplistic argument that relies upon 1 very vague and general warning. You must consider the historical time line of warnings including their details, statements from the IC to the Administration, etc, etc. There was nothing as vague as number 2 as you seem to suggest.

Honest debate is great. But lets keep it honest, as number 2 is not honest when compared to the historical record and the reality of the warnings.
 
One your using a very simplistic argument that relies upon 1 very vague and general warning. You must consider the historical time line of warnings including their details, statements from the IC to the Administration, etc, etc. There was nothing as vague as number 2 as you seem to suggest.

Honest debate is great. But lets keep it honest, as number 2 is not honest when compared to the historical record and the reality of the warnings.

You are right SD, this example is not the same as the actual warnings. It is actually MORE actionable than the actual warnings. It gives you a number of people involved (one), a definate action (plane hijack) and a time frame (soon). The warnings that the IC had were no where nearly as informative as this example.
 
One your using a very simplistic argument that relies upon 1 very vague and general warning. You must consider the historical time line of warnings including their details, statements from the IC to the Administration, etc, etc. There was nothing as vague as number 2 as you seem to suggest.

Honest debate is great. But lets keep it honest, as number 2 is not honest when compared to the historical record and the reality of the warnings.

Uh-huh. Dodge noted.

And while you're dodging, why don't you NOT provide any of those specific warnings ?
 
I should probably point this out for future reference... the people in charge of the IC? They don't do the analysis; they just report it. Therefore, in actuality, the leaders of the IC know somewhat LESS than the lower ranking analysts.

Just a thought.

There is much truth to that; however, the further down the analysis chain you go, the less of the "big picture" is seen by that analyst. While there is some cross-pollination & feedback at every analysis level, it has to be limited in many ways. This is an inherent drawback of any security system, but unavoidable if some secrets are simply too critical to be widely passed around.

As the mountain of mostly-useless crud gets weeded and analyzed, going up the chain, it's still stove-piped to some extent until it gets to a point where someone looks at the open-source material, electronic intercepts, recce platform stuff, and material from covert sources -- plus the track record of the individual sources -- and makes an overall judgment. Sometimes the DCI makes the call, but in cases like Tenet, who had zero real experience in the intel world, he has to rely on the real spooks who are in a position to evaluate the covert sources.

One of the things that confuses the civilians, and especially the conspiracy groupies, is their failure to understand that some otherwise-unidentified "warning" is pure codswallop unless you know a LOT about it -- something that will seldom happen for open publication. It is not even easy for intelligence professionals, many of whom think that their personal favorite "source" is the next Penkovsky, to have a clear view of their own analysis.

Even assuming that some of these nebulous pre-911 "warnings" actually had some merit (and I have yet to see a clear example), none were specific enough to be considered "actionable" except in the broadest sense. The community had been warning for decades that cockpit doors should be hardened, but the idiots who own the airlines dragged their feet and basically did nothing. Should the FAA have simply ordered it? In hindsight, yes -- but the blood in the aisles of Congress over these "Gestapo tactics" would have delayed things equally long anyhow.

Dealing with intel issues is so bloody complex that I'm reluctant to even begin ... but since I've opened my mouth already, let me make one statement that should be obvious:

911 was going to happen, period, and absolutely nothing would have stopped it. The most that could have been accomplished was to change the specific form of attack. Our airline security was nearly nonexistent, so al-Qaeda took that easy route. If we'd hardened the procedures to the point they are now, another flashy operation would have been mounted, very possibly with far worse consequences. 3000 dead is a pretty easy figure to achieve, and the only reason the WTC & Pentagon targets were chosen is for their flashy photo-ops and propaganda value. And anyone who thinks they can't put another airliner into a skyscraper tomorrow simply doesn't understand how things work, and has no imagination whatsoever. The new rules ONLY lessen the chances that airline passengers will die in a terrorist attack; they do nothing whatsoever to stop planes from hitting buildings ... or power plants ... or stadiums full of football or baseball fans. Or far scarier scenarios that could easily result in the deaths of millions.

The most useful outcome from 9-11 would have been to allow American Airlines and United Airlines to go totally bankrupt and not bail out their massive liability -- this would have forced the remaining airlines to actually do real security improvements instead of the fig-leaf nonsense that actually has taken place. Not one taxpayer dollar should have been spent on survivor benefits, and allowing the government to dictate cockpit security procedures only guarantees that they won't work. A ten-year-old could write effective ones, but no government agency works at that high a level.

Classifying 9-11 as an "intelligence failure" is an easy shot, but a cheap one nonetheless. Is any successful terrorist attack a failure of the IC? Is anything less than 100% a failure? As long as we live in a society that is this open and unfettered by regulation, we'd better get used to the idea that we are going to be attacked. We don't even seem to be willing to take the easy, cheap steps to regulate our borders effectively, for fear of offending the Mexican government, the ACLU, or La Raza zealots -- yet we'll spend billions keeping boxcutters and nail files out of airplanes ... though I could board any airliner tomorrow with makeshift throat-cutters that work just as well as boxcutters, and not a peep would be heard from these airport security zombies.

In fairness, I should point out that I spent 20+ years in the intelligence community. I know the warts and weaknesses all too well, and there are plenty of them, though the most serious ones originate from Congressional interference and incompetence. I've been happily retired from the business now almost as long as I was in it, though I probably still maintain enough connections to be considered a bona fide NWO operative and government shill. I just wish my shill paychecks would start soon.
 
Belated welcome to the forum, MSgtWeiss, and thank you for offering another perspective to the debate!
 
The big question I have for anyone who thinks the attacks could have been prevented is this:

Aside from grounding all air traffic and imposing martial law, how can you be completely sure that they wont be able to act out on a terrorist attack? And even if they did do that, whats to stop the terrorists from doing it another day?
 
Our airline security was nearly nonexistent, so al-Qaeda took that easy route.
Certainly it was for domestic flights, which is what the 9/11 flights all were. International flights into the U.S. were a little better, security-wise.

And anyone who thinks they can't put another airliner into a skyscraper tomorrow simply doesn't understand how things work, and has no imagination whatsoever. The new rules ONLY lessen the chances that airline passengers will die in a terrorist attack; they do nothing whatsoever to stop planes from hitting buildings ... or power plants ... or stadiums full of football or baseball fans.
On the one hand I agree, it's still possible, but on the other hand I'd say the chances are much lower than they were prior to 9/11. I can't ever see passengers on a flight letting anyone other than the pilots take over the cockpit — they'll fight before they let that happen, because they know what it means if they don't.
 

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