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Where does Oil come from?

geni said:
Nyet. The organic stuff must have an organic source idea was knocked out in 1828.

If you want a really clear example of a organic molicule with no life based source look at the long chain carbon stuff you get turning up in the other layer of stars.
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I wasn't talking stars, geni. Tell me, is there carbon in petroleum? If so, where does it come from? Let's pretend for the moment that methane is not considered a part of petroleum and that there are no stars in the Earth's mantle. Would you just do that for a teensy moment?
 
Slimething said:
I wasn't talking stars, geni. Tell me, is there carbon in petroleum?
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Yes
If so, where does it come from?
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Triple-alpha process with perhaps a little from CNO cycle.

Let's pretend for the moment that methane is not considered a part of petroleum and that there are no stars in the Earth's mantle. Would you just do that for a teensy moment?
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Your statement however was pretty much word for word one of the principles of vitalism.
 
Slimething said:
Okay, why do you consider carbonates inorganic?
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As much as it pains me to disagree with you Slimething (I always enjoy your posts), I do want to clarify something here. Organic/inorganic in chemistry does not necessarily mean having an origin in organic life. My mother has a PhD in organic chemistry, and I have had to listen to waaaaay too many discussions about what the term organic chemistry means.
 
Hokulele said:
As much as it pains me to disagree with you Slimething (I always enjoy your posts), I do want to clarify something here. Organic/inorganic in chemistry does not necessarily mean having an origin in organic life. My mother has a PhD in organic chemistry, and I have had to listen to waaaaay too many discussions about what the term organic chemistry means.
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Disagree all you want. Organic chemistry does not limit itself to carbon compounds that originate from biological processes. Organic chemistry has to do with carbon. Put your mother on.

ETA: Hokulele, I hope the fact that I'm wrong occassionally does not put you off to my posts. However, carbonates being inorganic is a prevailing myth that I've had to debunk to a fair number of students. So, I can't let this one slide. I think your mother would understand.
 
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geni said:
CaCO3? No carbon carbon bonds
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Where did you get that definition? I've never seen it. Is carbon dioxide inorganic? methanol? methane? cyanide? carbon monoxide? carbon tetrachloride?

Hokulele was right in a way. There is no bright line between organic and inorganic chemistry when you get down to one-carbon molecules but, no, cabonates are not considered inorganic by chemists. As a matter of facts, many organic syntheses begin with carbonates.
 
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Slimething said:
Disagree all you want. Organic chemistry does not limit itself to carbon compounds that originate from biological processes. Organic chemistry has to do with carbon. Put your mother on.
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On the other hand, "organic" in petroleum geology does mean originating from life. And you're not asking chemistry questions here....

Here's the relevant paragraph from Tricky. Note the use of "inorganic," "non-organic," and "abiogenic" as synonyms.

As to inorganic hydrocarbon compounds, yes, they happen. There is a lot of non-organic carbon in the earth and a lot of "laboratories" where heat and pressure can do odd things. The abiogenic theory of petroleum formation had it's most fervent adherent in Thomas Gold, and he convince enough others to actually try some drilling tests. The most famous of these tests was the drilling project at the Siljan Ring, an ancient meteorite impact area. A few complex hydrocarbons were found which did appear to have inorganic origin (at least partially), but not in anything close to economic quantities. However, it is widely accepted that the vast majority of complex organic compounds (greater than two carbons) are produced by organic activities. The evidence is simply overwhelming.
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If you think that "organic" simply means "carbon-containing," then the statement that "there is a lot of non-organic carbon in the earth" is not only false, but paradoxically oxymoronic.
 
drkitten said:
On the other hand, "organic" in petroleum geology does mean originating from life. And you're not asking chemistry questions here....

Here's the relevant paragraph from Tricky. Note the use of "inorganic," "non-organic," and "abiogenic" as synonyms.
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I wasn't aware that the term "organic" varied that significantly between chemistry and geology. So, I apologize for the confusion.

If you think that "organic" simply means "carbon-containing," then the statement that "there is a lot of non-organic carbon in the earth" is not only false, but paradoxically oxymoronic.
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No, I don't believe that at all. There are some intersting carbon-containing compounds that are strictly considered inorganic. An example is calcium carbide. The reason they're considered inorganic is because the bonding in them is ionic, not covalent*, as in organic compounds. Said calcium carbide is interesting in that, when moistened, it gives off acetylene, definitely an organic compound.

Sorry to be tiresome and pendantic but, chemistry-wise, carbonates are organic but some are abiotic in origin.

*Sorry, no bright line between ionic and covalent bonding either.
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Slimething said:
Disagree all you want. Organic chemistry does not limit itself to carbon compounds that originate from biological processes. Organic chemistry has to do with carbon. Put your mother on.
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I think this is the point where you and geni may be talking past each other. I would also refer to drkitten's post describing synonyms in geology.

ETA: Hokulele, I hope the fact that I'm wrong occassionally does not put you off to my posts. However, carbonates being inorganic is a prevailing myth that I've had to debunk to a fair number of students. So, I can't let this one slide. I think your mother would understand.
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It would take much more than being wrong on occasion to put me off of your posts. Heck, if being wrong every now and then would be a reason to discount people, I would be on everyone's ignore list by now. :)
 
Hokulele said:
Thanks Tricky! One question, how common is it for petroleum products to surface? Would La Brea tar pits be an example of this?
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Quite common, but the volumes vary tremendously. Methane, being a small molecule, is seeping out almost continuously, along with other lighter molecules. Tar pits are somewhat less common, but often when you see tar, there are actually lots of lighter hydrocarbons that you can't see.

One way of exploring for hydrocarbons is to do a series of samples across the surface of a potential field and look for hydrocarbon anomalies.
 
Slimething said:
Okay, why do you consider carbonates inorganic?
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It is simply because of the definition of "organic" used by most chemists. Organic means compounds containing carbon, hydrogen and oxygen. Since CaCO3 doesn't have hydrogen, it is not considered "organic" from a chemical standpoint.

However, it is quite obvious that much calcium carbonate the product of organisms. I know it seems odd, but organic, in the chemical sense, doesn't mean "arising from life". Instead, chemists use the word "biogenic" for such compounds.
 
When I first heard about this many years ago, before Gold (of whom he has little good to say), it was from a Russian paper brought to light by JF Kenny. His website his here with a phone interview and various articles addressing several related subject matters.
http://www.gasresources.net/
 
Slimething said:
Disagree all you want. Organic chemistry does not limit itself to carbon compounds that originate from biological processes. Organic chemistry has to do with carbon. Put your mother on.
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Not just carbon. Carbon, hydrogen and oxygen. Diamonds, for example, are not considered organic, even though the carbon they are created from may have once been part of an organism.

But you are right that organic chemistry is not limited to biologically derived compounds. Many synthetic "organic" compounds do not even exist in nature.

ETA: I see this has been clarified by others. I suppose I need to finish reading the thread before I reply.
 
drkitten said:
On the other hand, "organic" in petroleum geology does mean originating from life. And you're not asking chemistry questions here....
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There's been some astronomy talk in this thread also. Someone should introduce the word "metal" in to this conversation.
 
Tricky said:
It is simply because of the definition of "organic" used by most chemists. Organic means compounds containing carbon, hydrogen and oxygen. Since CaCO3 doesn't have hydrogen, it is not considered "organic" from a chemical standpoint.
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Well, no, Tricky, that's not what organic chemistry means. As you already know, because of your field, there are many organic compounds with no oxygen and there are some with no hydrogen.

In the case of calcium carbonate, carbonic acid (H2CO3), ionized as CO3 (-2) reacted with Ca (+2) to yield CaCO3, a relatively insoluble salt. So, to be considered inorganic, you would have to argue that the loss of two ionizable hydrogens rendered the carbonate ion inorganic whereas, fully protonated, it was organic.

However, drkitten has informed me that you and I use different lexicons and that we both mean the same thing. I will happily accept that.

I know it seems odd, but organic, in the chemical sense, doesn't mean "arising from life". Instead, chemists use the word "biogenic" for such compounds.
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We also use "biotic", "metabolic", and other like phrases. Organic chemistry is the study of carbon molecules, most notably those that use mostly covalent sp(n) bonding. That's the rule I've seen applied when provenance is an issue.

Thank you for the reply. Sorry to be such a pedant but you geologists tripped over one of my buttons. :o
 
Dr Adequate said:
pray that the Blessed St Ignatius Of The Bleedin' Obvious will vouchsafe you a vision of Carboniferous fossils.
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I once prayed to the Blessed St Ignatius of the Bleedin' Obvious for enlightenment on the Power of Prayer, but nothing happened. I can't decide whether my prayer was answered or not.
 
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