Why trust science when they can't test properly?!

Another thing:

If you claim that "real" out of body experiences happen, you need to devise some way to prove that human consciousness resides somewhere else besides the brain, and that it can apparently leave that brain and travel about while retaining sentience. Without evidence to prove that hypothesis, we can only be left to assume that an out of body experience is simply another type of dream state.
 
I agree with what you wrote, DrBuzzo, but, in this case, I can see utility in the experiment. These scientists were not trying to debunk the idea of OBE per se. They were using the myth of OBE to try to induce sensation similar to what has been reported by OBE claimants. And, they succeeded.

If OBE is ultimately falsifiable, I would characterize this as a pretty important step in elucidating a contributing mechanism. From the few accounts of the experiment that I've read, this finding, if verified, could lead to isolating that portion of the brain that induces OBE phenomena. So, I wouldn't condemn this bit of science as useless or fluff.
 
If this is the experiment I think it is (sorry, too lazy to look ATM) it produced a repeatable sensation of the shifting of the perceived locus of the mind to a point outside the body. This is interesting as most people would never consider that such a thing was possible, and many couldn't understand the premise even if it was explained to them, such is the way we unquestioningly accept that our body-image as we experience it is "correct".

As for explaining OBEs, it doesn't. It helps to understand how they might be possible but that's as far as it goes. Don't be tempted to believe the moronic media headlines either ("OBEs Finally Explained" I think was one). Some boozed-up journalist with a sub-normal IQ spending five minutes talking to a lab assistant isn't the best source of accurate scientific information.
 
Slimething said:
I agree with what you wrote, DrBuzzo, but, in this case, I can see utility in the experiment. These scientists were not trying to debunk the idea of OBE per se. They were using the myth of OBE to try to induce sensation similar to what has been reported by OBE claimants. And, they succeeded.

If OBE is ultimately falsifiable, I would characterize this as a pretty important step in elucidating a contributing mechanism. From the few accounts of the experiment that I've read, this finding, if verified, could lead to isolating that portion of the brain that induces OBE phenomena. So, I wouldn't condemn this bit of science as useless or fluff.
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That is correct and I actually did make a blog post about this and found the study interesting. I was under the impression this post had been steered into something more general involving the falability of research.

What the study is basically getting at is that if you give someone a strong visual suggestion of something their brain will use this assumption as the baisis for perception and put other sensory within this context.


There was a documentary I saw a long time ago, in which a man had a "Phanton limb" He claimed his missing hand hurt terribly becasue it was in a very tight fist and he could feel his fingernails digging into the palm of the long-amputated hand.

The strange thing was how simple the cure for this was. A neurologist theorized that a visual representation of the hand could make the pain go away. a simple box was built and the man put his hand in one hole and his stumped limb in the other. As he looked in, he saw two hands, because one side was open but the other side had a miror, angled to make it appear his right hand and left hand were both there.

He was told to clench his remaining hand as tightly as the amputated hand feeled clenched and then gently open and relax it while he watched the "Two hands" both relax. The sensation which had bothered him for a long time went away. It was almost ridiculous how simple it was and how something which had nearly ruined someone's life could be altered by a rather simple visual illusion.

I'm sorry I do not recal when I saw this or have a citation, but I am giving it an example of why this "OBE" research is worthwhile.

Out of body experiences have long been thought to be a method of coping with pain, trauma or fear by making a person feel as if they are not part of their body, which is in danger or pain.
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
Iamme, you've yet to answer me about your bizarre claim that hand washing and sanitary practices results in fewer infections than wrapping a wound in duct tape.

Where did you dream that up?
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I know a guy who works out in the farm field and almost cut off his fingers deep into his hand and he held it together with duct tape. No infection. Never went to doctor.

Next patient goes to doctor with stubbed toe. Infection sets in under bandage. Doctor opens bandage. Gangrene. Patient loses foot.

True stories.

Guy with duct tape got no strep. People in hospitals that are supposed to be ultra-hygenic do. Go figure.
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
Frankly, I'm not sure what you even mean when you ask "why trust science". Science really isn't a matter of trust.

So rather than giving us your apparently uninformed criticism of science, can you say where you would prefer the advancement of knowledge and technology should come from?
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Your two paragraphs are unrelated. Just because I do not believe in what some of scientific claims are, as often they even change their minds...I DO believe that truth thru correct science can be had.

It's just that we can't accept everything as gospel.
Some of the easy simplistic stuff; yes. But matters regarding great complexity; no.
 
DRBUZZ0 said:
Out of body experiences have long been thought to be a method of coping with pain, trauma or fear by making a person feel as if they are not part of their body, which is in danger or pain.
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Interesting. I wonder at what point during anesthesia they started thinking that they were in danger or pain?... or if that person was well on their way to having their 'dream' OBE by being so traumatized moments before the surgery? I wonder if studies have been done where they look at what kind of people have OBE's...what personality types they are?
 
Iamme said:
I know a guy who works out in the farm field and almost cut off his fingers deep into his hand and he held it together with duct tape. No infection. Never went to doctor.

Next patient goes to doctor with stubbed toe. Infection sets in under bandage. Doctor opens bandage. Gangrene. Patient loses foot.

True stories.

Guy with duct tape got no strep. People in hospitals that are supposed to be ultra-hygenic do. Go figure.
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You're not seriously offering this as proof?

Fine, they may be true stories, but they are anecdotes, not evidence.

If it were a study, you've got a sample size of 1 in each group, no control, and the conditions of the two are entirely different.

So your claim that more people get infections under sanitary conditions than if you just wrapped the wound in duct tape is completely bogus.

You really don't believe this claim, do you?
 
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Iamme said:
Your two paragraphs are unrelated. Just because I do not believe in what some of scientific claims are, as often they even change their minds...I DO believe that truth thru correct science can be had.
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It's not about changing their minds; it's about going where the evidence leads.

It's just that we can't accept everything as gospel.
Some of the easy simplistic stuff; yes. But matters regarding great complexity; no.
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Easy simple stuff like. . . microchip processors? fMRI machines? sequencing the human genome? understanding some of the complex inner workings of cells? developing new antibiotics and vaccines? anti-retroviral drugs? calculating the trajectory of an interplanetary probe? determining the sequence of amino acids and modeling the entire 3-d structure of proteins? ag-tech that lets some 3% of the work force grow an abundance of food? neurosurgery?

Science is not about finding gospel truth. The scientific consensus at any moment is provisional.
 
Iamme said:
Interesting. I wonder at what point during anesthesia they started thinking that they were in danger or pain?... or if that person was well on their way to having their 'dream' OBE by being so traumatized moments before the surgery? I wonder if studies have been done where they look at what kind of people have OBE's...what personality types they are?
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Danger or pain or trauma is one hypothysis for why the brain might project the perception of location onto a different physical location, but it is not necessarily the only reason. It could be as simple as anesthesia just messes with your head.

I'm sure it's different for different people and events.
 
DRBUZZ0 said:
I was under the impression this post had been steered into something more general involving the falability of research.
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Yes, Iamme tried to steer it in that direction but that doesn't mean that the sentient have to follow.


He was told to clench his remaining hand as tightly as the amputated hand feeled clenched and then gently open and relax it while he watched the "Two hands" both relax. The sensation which had bothered him for a long time went away. It was almost ridiculous how simple it was and how something which had nearly ruined someone's life could be altered by a rather simple visual illusion.
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I find that touching for some reason. What fools these mortals be and all that. That story underscores our humanity and vulnerability. Thanks for sharing.

Out of body experiences have long been thought to be a method of coping with pain, trauma or fear by making a person feel as if they are not part of their body, which is in danger or pain.
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Yes, today it's known as "Go to a happy place!".

PS How's the doggie?
 
Slimething said:
Yes, Iamme tried to steer it in that direction but that doesn't mean that the sentient have to follow.




I find that touching for some reason. What fools these mortals be and all that. That story underscores our humanity and vulnerability. Thanks for sharing.



Yes, today it's known as "Go to a happy place!".

PS How's the doggie?
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Or go play with Mr. Happy. Something happy anyway.:D
 
Cello Man said:
Another thing:

If you claim that "real" out of body experiences happen, you need to devise some way to prove that human consciousness resides somewhere else besides the brain, and that it can apparently leave that brain and travel about while retaining sentience.
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Iamme seems to be living proof that consciousness can exist without a brain.

Rule 12: Attack the argument, not the arguer!
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Miss Anthrope
 
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Iamme said:
I know a guy who works out in the farm field and almost cut off his fingers deep into his hand and he held it together with duct tape. No infection. Never went to doctor.

Next patient goes to doctor with stubbed toe. Infection sets in under bandage. Doctor opens bandage. Gangrene. Patient loses foot.

True stories.

Guy with duct tape got no strep. People in hospitals that are supposed to be ultra-hygenic do. Go figure.
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I work in an orthopedic ward where approximately 2% of the patients gets post-surgery infections. Meaning 98% have big operations in their knee, hips, hands and feet without problems.
Go figure.
 
eir_de_scania said:
I work in an orthopedic ward where approximately 2% of the patients gets post-surgery infections. Meaning 98% have big operations in their knee, hips, hands and feet without problems.
Go figure.
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Yep. That's true. You can't use the (EXTREMELY) anecdotal stories like that as proof of anything. I've cut myself plenty of times and not gotten an infection, but once or twice I did get an infection and needed antibiotics, which it responded to well (luckily).

Hospitals do all they reasonably can to keep clean and use sterile dressings and surgical instruments. It's nowhere near perfect, because as soon as something comes out of the autoclave and touches the atmosphere it has a chance to have bacteria deposited on it.

But that's besides the point: If you get a cut which is not properly cleaned and dressed chances are pretty good you won't get an infection, as long as you are pretty healthy and have a decent immune system. But it still is a risk. If you have surgery in a proper environment the same rules apply, but the chance is greatly reduced.

This seems like it should be obvious....

Not everyone who had a leg lopped off by a field medic with a dirty bone saw in the American Civil War got a raging infection; but many did. And a hell of a lot more than do today in modern hospitals.
 
Slimething said:
I find that touching for some reason. What fools these mortals be and all that. That story underscores our humanity and vulnerability. Thanks for sharing.
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Here is some more info:

http://www.answers.com/topic/mirror-box

http://www.mirrorboxtherapy.com/how-used.htm

This type of therapy for "Phantom Limb" pain is not always so successful as one can put their hand in, unclench it and the pain is gone... good to go for the rest of their life. But, sometimes it is that dramatic. Which is surprising, considering that some people live for years in agony.

I give this because it seems to relate to the OBE thing. You can tell people "It's not there. You don't have a clenched hand" all you want and they still will have pain. (And it has been demonstrated in brain scans that they do indeed have the sort of stresses and such one would associated with chronic pain)

But then you give them a very simple... so simple it seems almost ridiculous... visual representation and tell them "Imagine thats your hand. Now unclench it and relax it" And... almost stunningly the majority feel immediate relief!

Sometimes this one single event makes the pain go away. Sometimes it comes back but a simple exercise with the mirror box makes it go away.

It's just stunning to me how the human brian can be so dramatically effected in its perception of reality and physical feelings by this sort of "eye trick"

To me, this seems like it has a lot in common with the OBE experiments, in how it shows the weirdness and dramatic effects of illusions on perception




PS How's the doggie?
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The one I adopted last month you mean? He's doing very well.
 
DRBUZZ0 said:
Not everyone who had a leg lopped off by a field medic with a dirty bone saw in the American Civil War got a raging infection; but many did. And a hell of a lot more than do today in modern hospitals.
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And didn't they at least have sulfa drugs by then? Not the best, but certainly better than duct tape.

And don't misunderstand me--I think duct tape is pretty miraculous. This happens to be one application best left to medicine.
 
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